From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V2 #3 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 13 November 1992 Volume 02 : Number 003 In this issue: Re: F-107 Re: F-107 FF/B-58 Dorsal Inlets & the XST A book that you should all read Re: FOIA's Re: A book that you should all read YF-107A Re: Another F-107 Source Re: F-107 JPEGs YF-107A #3 (55-120).... The passing of an era Re: A book that you should all read Aircraft Nicknames Re: The passing of an era RE: airplane names A book that you should all read Re: airplane names See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Lafford Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 08:24:31 EST Subject: Re: F-107 >T Velazquez > MIT Aero/Astro > brndlfly@athena.mit.edu >I also have a question: what kind of benefits do you get from putting the >intake above the fuselage like that? Anything advantageous from a >propulsion/ aerodynamics point of view? I'd imagine you can put a much larger intake on the top and that you'd avoid the FOD problem the F-16 intake has. BUT... it can't do much for the flow dynamics at high AOA. Regards, Rick - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Lafford | If God had meant man to fly, he'd never have Eastman Kodak Co. | invented airplanes. lafford@serum.kodak.com | =========================================================================== ------------------------------ From: dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 06:51:36 MST Subject: Re: F-107 >From: brndlfly@Athena.MIT.EDU >what kind of benefits do you get from putting the intake above >the fuselage like that? Anything advantageous from a >propulsion/aerodynamics point of view? The F-107 was an offshoot of the F-100 design. The Super Sabre had an air intake in the nose, which needed to be moved to make room for the radar system required on the 107. Certainly an immediate advantage would be FOD-related, but I can see where it might cause problems in other areas. I'm sure the report Mary mentioned has lots of information on this very subject, since that is one of the primary things they were investigating with the F-107. - -dean ------------------------------ From: dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 06:53:02 MST Subject: FF/B-58 Last night's FIRST FLIGHTS rerun "Supersonic Bombers: The Elusive Search", had quite a bit of very nice B-58 Hustler footage... in addition to other segments on the B-52, B-1, B-2, FB-111, and others. For any B-58 fans who missed it, there should be a repeat showing of this episode on Monday at 2:30am (pacific) on the A&E network. - -dean ------------------------------ From: rbarton@who.cc.trincoll.edu (Ran Barton, III '93) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 12:01:16 -0500 Subject: Dorsal Inlets & the XST >I also have a question: what kind of benefits do you get from putting the >intake above the fuselage like that? Anything advantageous from a propulsion/ >aerodynamics point of view? I know high Alpha masking of the inlet is a concern with the dorsal position. David Anderton, in his coffee table book _The History of the U.S. Air Force_ (it's at home; no further details) refers to NAA's F-107 as 'the finest fighter ever canceled by the AF,' citing performance and cost. Any one know the reasons for its cancellation? Was it competing with Republic's F-105? (That would be the Ultra Sabre vs. the Ultra Hog.) As an aside, Aviation Week published on 10-Feb-1992 an artist's conception of Northrop's 1976 proposal for the XST contract (which Lockheed won with the F-117). It's relevant here, for it had a large rectangular intake mounted above and behind the cockpit. Taking my details from the article accompanying the illustration, it mentions that Northrop prposed a screen over their inlet with a much finer pitch than the grid that Lockheed used. "The Lockheed design has about 88% inlet pressure recovery at high subsonic Mach numbers, but the pressure drop across the Northrop screen would have made the device unusable above Mach 0.65." The article also says that full-sclae RCS models were made of both proposals, though the Northrop a/c did not reach flight test. Northrop chief designer Irv T. Waaland is quoted as saying that, "Lockheed was the clear winner where it counted most." The XST evaluation then led to the Have Blue prototype, which became the F-117. But you all know that... On the related issue of Northrop stealth prototypes, could anyone elaborate on the ATB program's evolution, "Shamu," and any other related information? I'm very curious, and would love to hear people's comments. Thanks, Ran ______________________________________________________________ || Ran Barton, III '93 | A year passes apace || || rbarton@who.trincoll.edu | and proves ever new; || || Trinity College | First things and final || || 300 Summit Street - Box 955 | conform but seldom. || || Hartford, CT 06106-3100 | -The Gawain Poet || ||_______________________________|__________________________|| ------------------------------ From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 10:36:55 PST Subject: A book that you should all read On the Frontier: Rlight Research at Dryden, 1946--1981. Richard Hallion. NASA SP-4303. Available from the Dryden Gigt Shop (call 805-258-3954) for this. It's out of print, but she's got the last 20 or so available. It's about $21. The GPO may still have some, too. - -- Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 11:20:24 -0800 Subject: Re: FOIA's Bill Staniewicz writes: >Although this doesnt relate directly to an item >on innovative aircraft design, I think it may be >helpful to some of you who plan to do business with >the government. >A few weeks ago I called the National Institute of >Health to get a copy of a technical proposal. When >I spoke to the secretary, she mentioned it would be >necessary that I send a written request for the document >citing that this was to be under the "Freedom of Information >Act". No, it IS helpful. It is amazing how this FOIA thing (sound like George don't I) has gotten abused! I've also encountered this for non-FOIA requests as well. In other words, just simple non-FOIA requests are handled as FOIA requests! I didn't even re-write the letter! > The next day I mailed a simple request stating the >document title, number, etc.. and asking that they send >me a copy. > >Just yesterday I got the document. However, what I didnt >expect to get was an "Invoice of Fees for Freedom of >Information Act Services". > ... >I am posting this information to this group so that others >may be aware that if you do request information under the >"FOIA", you will pay for it. Also, I was wondering if I have >any chance of being able to dispute these charges? >I didnt know I would be charged for this information and >I suppose I should be glad I didnt request a multitude of >documents. The process can get _very_ expensive. I would call the people who sent you the bill. There must be a mechanism for this. Yes. The first person to ask for the information, if the information is released, has to pay the research fee AND the photocopying costs. They have been known to use the research fee to make the person decide not to pursue the matter further. In other words, they inform you that the information is indeed available, but they estimate that it will cost thousands of dollars to research it, and then 10 cents per page to photocopy it. This technique was actually explained to me by a gentleman who works at the National Archives! Once the research is done, additional FOIA's from other people get the same information for just the photocopying costs. One way around this is to ask for the cost information first, and then decide whether you want to actually pursue it further. But this wastes time. Some places in the government actually will inform you if the bill looks excessive. In other words, a relatively inexpensive FOIA will be immediately fulfilled, but one whose research fee is large (for whatever reason) will prompt a "are you sure you want this" letter. I also know people who put that stipulation in their request. Another technique is to do the research yourself. This can be done if there is a large collection of information that is already declassified. I have a friend who approaches a lot of his research this way. Some of the information he asks for he doesn't know the location of. So he asks for the location of that information. Once he knows where it is (and just this phase can take a year!) he finds out how much information exists and then flies there and goes through it himself. He tells me he's been in warehouses at WPAFB just like the warehouse at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark". A secretary accompanies him out to the warehouse where there are 5-6 cases on a table. He is allowed to take one case at a time to an examining room where there is a photocopier that takes 10 cents per copy. He goes through one case at a time, copying what he wants. He's found a lot of neat stuff this way. But he's an author, with an advance on a book, so he can afford to do this. I've only gotten a response within 10 days from the CIA. And in that case, all I got was a FOIA number. The actual response took over 6 months, and it was a denial! It's interesting that I think the CIA sold my name to a government contracting firm that started to pester me with junk mail. In other words, deny the FOIA and then sell the mail listing for cash! I tell you! These guys are something else! :) A citizen starts to feel that HE is the ENEMY!! Larry ------------------------------ From: kean@cerridwen.UCS.ORST.EDU Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:33:18 PST Subject: Re: A book that you should all read The gift shop doesn't take phone orders, you need to send a check or money order 8( Send your money to this address: Dryden Gift Shop PO Box 86 Edwards CA 93523 Cost with shipping is $22.00. Kean Kean Stump (503)-737-4740 Why choose the *lesser* of two evils? Oregon State Network Operations Vote for Cthulu, '92 DOMAIN: kean@ucs.orst.edu UUCP: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!kean ------------------------------ From: "S.K. Whiteman" <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:WHITEMAN@IPFWVM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 14:38:27 EST Subject: YF-107A According to B. Gunston in Fighters of the Fifties, Page 176-177: The AF decided that the F-105 could due with some competition and ordered three prototypes of NA-211 (company number, AF 55-118 to 55-120). signed the contract in August of 1954; later 6 more were added to the contract but were canceled. The YF-107A was designed to correct the mistakes made in the F-100. First the inlet was moved below the cockpit as in the Hawker P.1121, but later to the above cockpit position where pressure recovery was excellent even at high angles of attack. It had a vertical splitter and variable wall profile. Integral fuel tanks were completely restressed in the original short span F-100 wings. It also had a single piece vertical stab. The first flight dates were 10 Sept, 28 Nov, and 10 Dec 1956. The first flight of the first YF-107A ended with drag-chute failure; the A/C suffered nose gear failure when it hit a depression in the lake bed. It was flying 3 days later after repairs. That was the only problem encountered in the test programe. Gunston says: Every indication was that the '107 was a superb aircraft, but Republic needed the work. It would incorrect to suggest that the F-105 was in any way a second-best choice; but neither was the F-107. The fully equipped No 2 aircraft survives in the AF museum. \ /___________________ Sam \_____/ | IBM Systems Programmer Chicago/ | * | O Indiana University - I | Ft. Wayne | H Purdue University at Fort Wayne L | 1794-1994 | Fort Wayne, Indiana USA ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 11:44:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Another F-107 Source Rick Pavek writes: >er, there were three f-107's built. > >best article i've seen to date is the article in an old issue of >aerophile magazine. yes, i've got it. good airplane. There's more information on it as well (pilot impressions) in Milt Thompson's new book on the X-15 program ("At The Edge Of Space", or some such). One thing Milt mentions is that the 107 had terrible brakes. They used to catch fire all the time. There are a fair number of comments on flying it from some of the more famous test pilots. They evidently used it a lot back in the 60's for experiments and also chase. One of the most amusing and interesting sections of that book, is where Milt personally describes each of the pilots who flew the X-15. Evidently Joe Walker was the chief of flight test at the time, and I can't recall who it was, but it was somebody famous that kept asking Walker if he could take a F-104 on weekend cross country proficiency flights. Walker would always deny this telling this gentleman to take a T-33 instead. So one day he asked Walker if he could take an X-15 on that weekends cross country! Walker looked at him pretty seriously for awhile and then laughed and said he could take a F-104. Larry ------------------------------ From: brndlfly@Athena.MIT.EDU Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 15:53:41 EST Subject: Re: F-107 JPEGs I have picked out about four good shots of F-107 #1 (AF #55-118) from the Pima Air Museum shot last year and the year before. I don't have any suitable pics of the AFM bird (the Annex is a VERY crowded place and suffers from fatal backlighting etc. etc. etc.) I am currently working on getting them scanned and with luck will relay them to the Skunk Works archive sometime in the near future. Sooooo... What happened to F-107 Number Three (55-120)? -T T Velazquez MIT Aero/Astro brndlfly@athena.mit.edu "Crayolas are one of the few things the human race has in common." -Robert Fulghum ------------------------------ From: "S.K. Whiteman" <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:WHITEMAN@IPFWVM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:32:55 EST Subject: YF-107A #3 (55-120).... >brndlfly@athena.mit.edu Writes: >What happened to F-107 Number Three (55-120)? Gunston makes no mention of its fate. It may be part of that beer can you open tonight. :-( and/or :-) ------------------------------ From: "S.K. Whiteman" <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:WHITEMAN@IPFWVM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:51:18 EST Subject: The passing of an era Speaking of fifties A/C I noticed in Air International Vol 43, No 5, Nov 1992, page 260; that the RAF is retiring all F-4J(UK)s and the Avro Vulcans. 4 F-4s will remain in flying condition; the remainder will be scrapped. :-( ------------------------------ From: kean@cerridwen.UCS.ORST.EDU Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:33:18 PST Subject: Re: A book that you should all read The gift shop doesn't take phone orders, you need to send a check or money order 8( Send your money to this address: Dryden Gift Shop PO Box 86 Edwards CA 93523 Cost with shipping is $22.00. Kean Kean Stump (503)-737-4740 Why choose the *lesser* of two evils? Oregon State Network Operations Vote for Cthulu, '92 DOMAIN: kean@ucs.orst.edu UUCP: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!kean ------------------------------ From: Peter Loron Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:09:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aircraft Nicknames I seem to remember an Air Force Magazine a while back that had a list of nicknames, including some from German aircraft in WWII. I think my copy has gone the way of the dodo...anyone else have a copy? Peter Loron | Before the invention of eruptions, lava had | to be carried down the mountain by hand and BACS | thrown on the sleeping villagers. This took University of Washington | a lot of time. peterl@u.washington.edu | ------------------------------ From: Geoff.Miller@Corp.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:33:24 PST Subject: Re: The passing of an era >Speaking of fifties A/C I noticed in Air International >Vol 43, No 5, Nov 1992, page 260; that the RAF is retiring >all F-4J(UK)s and the Avro Vulcans. As a matter of fact, I just came from a bookstore where I leafed through copies of the latest issue of Flight International and Air Enthusiast. I don't remember which magazine I read it in (it had a Vulcan on the cover), but the sole remaining Avro Vulcan in flying condition, XH558, is to be retired at the end of the 1992 show season. (Considering the typical three-month magazine publishing leadtime and the weather in the UK, that probably means that it's already happened.) This aircraft, while manned and maintained by the RAF, was supported for its airshow appearances by contributions from enthusiasts. But the maintenance tab was apparently picked up by H.M. Government, who decided that it had done so long enough. XH558's future is uncertain, but permanent nonflying retirement to a museum is most likely. The scrap heap is a possibility, though. :^( One intriguing possibility mentioned in the article is that funding for a larger warbird would be easier to find in the US than in the UK. I'm hoping that a way will be found to get the machine onto the US warbird register and keep it flying. I'm sure it would be more than welcome as a regular at Oshkosh, as well as on the airshow cirtcuit at large. >4 F-4s will remain in flying condition; the remainder will be scrapped. :-( In one of the same magazines, it was mentioned that the last two Phantoms in the Falklands were "crushed by bulldozers and then buried." They've been replaced in the garrison role by a pair of Tornados. - --Geoff ------------------------------ From: robert@sv.gpsemi.com (Robert Andrews) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:36:15 PST Subject: RE: airplane names from a friend, who I forward the list.... - ----- Begin Included Message ----- From "MOTHER::KEND"@silver Thu Nov 12 16:29:45 1992 Subject: RE: airplane names To: robert@sv X-Vms-Mail-To: SILVER::EXOS%"robert@sv" Content-Length: 237 X-Lines: 11 reply Robert, One they missed is the F7U Cutlass. It was also known as the Ensign Killer because it could stall in all three axes simultaneously. Almost impossible to recover flight configuration from this "error of judgement". Ken - ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 19:43:58 PST Subject: A book that you should all read On Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:33:18 PST, kean@cerridwen.UCS.ORST.EDU said: kean> The gift shop doesn't take phone orders, you need to send a check kean> or money order 8( They don't take charge cards (keeps the prices low) and they're too smart to just invoice and COD is too much trouble. Vickie told me you'd called when she called to tell me that she got the books in this morning's (Thursday's) UPS delivery. Mary - -- Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot ------------------------------ From: Earl Weaver (BVLD/ASB) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 6:09:59 EST Subject: Re: airplane names If I remember correctly, there was the (Martin?) Ascender. But it had a nasty habit of stalling the rear wing first and killing pilots. It became known as the Ass Ender... ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V2 #3 ******************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from harbor.ecn.purdue.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).