From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V2 #13 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 24 November 1992 Volume 02 : Number 013 In this issue: DoD naming system Unsubscribe Info about stealt Can't unsubscribe F-117 Misc See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Allegrezza 23-Nov-1992 0654 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 07:31:16 EST Subject: DoD naming system Someday, I'd like to devote some time to exploring the derivation of this urban legend accusing the Air Force of "violating" the DOD aircraft naming architecture. A quick perusal of the 1962 DoD naming system document will reveal that the F designator is to be used for fighter *or multipurpose tactical combat* aircraft. Hmm . . . let's look at the alleged cases of AF "violations" of the architecture in this light. F-111: originally a interdiction/strike fighter for the AF and a fleet air defense fighter (interceptor, if you will) for the N*vy. I'd call that "multipurpose tactical combat", wouldn't you? It's not the AF's fault that the N*vy didn't buy the F-111B, so it's hardly kosher to bash the AF for calling it a fighter. It met the F criteria at the time of inception. FB-111 is a special case. According to the naming architecture, it should have been called a BF-111, (Fighter series, Bomber modification). Unfortunately, Mr. Hairshirt Sonofabitch McNamara wanted the bomber version to make his TFX program more viable, and directly ordered the FB designation to avoid (he hoped) embarrassing Congressional inquiries as to why he wanted money for *his* bombers while he was proclaiming the death of *every other* manned bomber to all and sundry. F-117: let's remember the whole objective of this exercise was to develop the CSIRS capability *in secret*, so asking the naming system to allocate a sequential F-nn number was probably not a Good Idea. Placing that argument aside, however, if we assume that the Tom Clancy anti-AWACS mission existed, the F-117 would have been properly designated a fighter *or multipurpose tactical combat* aircraft. If not, then I'd entertain the argument that the RA-nn designator would have been more appropriate, assuming the AF wanted to be logical. There are obvious reasons why black programs should not have logical designators. Now, just for grins, let's look at how the N*vy (216 Years of Tradition Unhindered by Progress) has *violated* the naming architecture: AF-1E: on reserve duty at the time of the 1962 renaming. Plainly a multipurpose tactical combat aircraft, the A modifier was added to "address the concerns of the attack community". F/A-18: plainly a multipurpose tactical combat aircraft, thus properly an F-series. N*vy adds "/" to fudge the root designator/modifier issue, "to address the concerns of the attack community". No other US aircraft is named in this fashion. A-12 Dorito: not only intended to be a stealthy long-range strike system, but also intended to carry AIM-120 and AAAM missiles for self defense and backup FAD. "Multipurpose tactical combat", by any measure, and thus properly an F-nn. or at the very least an FA-12. As for the F-112=F-14, F-113=F-15 argument (first advanced by Bill Yenne, I think), the F-112 designator was used under the pre-1962 system by the Boeing design that lost to the F-111 in the TFX competition. That disrupts the sequence, unless you drop the YF-17. Also, what would be gained by keeping this old (and USAF-only) system for AF and N*vy fighters? Surely not to fudge the identity of a black fighter, the need for which hadn't been envisioned in 1962? My guess on the origin of F-117 is simply that the AF couldn't bear to call it an F-19 when they had gone on record as saying there wasn't an F-19 to begin with. Simple bureaucratic necessity, IMHO. Yeah, I still would like to know what F-13, F-19 and A-11 were/are, though. Maybe A-11 was the Rockwell/Grumman competitor to the A-12 Dorito in the ATA competition? (Not to be confused with the Lockheed OXCART designs . . .) George ------------------------------ From: "DRCOA1::LENOCHS" Date: 23 Nov 92 08:11:00 EST Subject: Unsubscribe I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 23-Nov-1992 08:09am EDT From: Loyd M. Enochs LENOCHS Dept: 02*15 S.D. Wilmington - VW Tel No: (508)658-6100 1578 TO: Remote Addressee ( _DDN!skunk-works@orchestra.ecn.purdue.edu ) Subject: Unsubscribe Please unsubscribe me from this list. The digest doesn't seem to be availabile (mail to get on the digest bounces) and the amount of incoming chaff is too great to sift through for nuggets of good, hard information. __ ___/ | \ | / The Computer's Revenge /____ |---->zap<- or \_| / | \ Ultimate Eyestrain (thanx to MM) Loyd M. Enochs (ex-USAF) - Dynamics Research Corporation - Andover, MA lenochs%drcoa1.decnet@drcvax.af.mil ------------------------------ From: John Erling Blad Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:26:06 +0100 Subject: Info about stealt Hi! Is there anybody that has good pic's of the different stealt figthers? I need pic's, especialy about details as I plan to bild my own litle model of the F-117. (Not full scale..) Is there anybody that has thoutched the F-117? How does it feel? Some times ago someone posted a note about "square wave radars" and "radar interferometry". Can the person who wrote it specify this? Do you mean high resolution and bistatic radar? Many questions but I hope someone have the answers.. Send me email of the locations of pic's and I transfer them, or do a anonymous ftp to ftp.ifi.uio.no or gyda.ifi.uio.no and place the pic's in tmp. If so, notigy me about the files so i can move them or the sysop will terminate them. It will also be nice if you can tell me what kind of optics/film format been used. Thanks! John Erling Blad Institute of informatics University of Oslo ------------------------------ From: ae211ws@prism.gatech.edu (Walter M. Stumpf) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 11:23:28 -0500 Subject: Can't unsubscribe After two attempts to unsubscribe, I find I'm still flooded with mail. How do I get out of this mailing list. It's been a good two weeks since I sent the unsubscribe message. Walter Stumpf Walter M. Stumpf Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!ae211ws Internet: ae211ws@prism.gatech.edu ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 10:12:17 PST Subject: F-117 Spoke with Jim Goodall this evening. He tells me that these "aircraft" that start out without serial numbers or ID's of any kind. This is the same effect where we see the blackbirds called "Article #" and in the case of the F-117 it apparently is somewhat off the wall. (This is somewhat different than I'd earlier reported. Blame it on the fact that I'm not 25 anymore... ;-) Before the 117 had an identifier, pilots referred to the amount of time they flew as Block 117 time. Jim wasn't sure where block 117 exists, but apparently it's the information block in the pilot's log where they record the hours. Whether or not it's Form #117 or just a single block on the form is unclear, (Perhaps some pilot types can confirm), but the Stealth pilots referred to their flight time as "Block 117" time. When Goodall's pictures hit the cover of Av Week, Lockheed was pressed to ID the a/c. Because of the prior referral to the flight time as 117 time, the moniker F-117 was arbitrarily assigned. Likewise, since (contrary to normal practices where the a/c serial numbers are assigned before they are built) the black programs don't use serial numbers to ID the aircraft, when the need for one becomes evident the manufacturer numbers the items arbitrarily. The first F-117 is numbered the way it is (920) because it was supposed to have been flown first on July 20th. The nutshell is that the black a/c don't have any fixed system, it's all kluged and anything that we later see is arbitrary and wouldn't have to follow any rules as there are none. Rick ------------------------------ From: mason@scubed.scubed.com (Bruce Mason) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 13:09:44 PST Subject: Misc Several years ago in an AW&ST letter to the editor, a former tower operator from Edwards claimed that the designations F-112 to F-116 were applied to Soviet aircraft being tested by USAF (purchased from third world countries, etc.). Another claim (source?) is that F-19 was skipped because the Northrop F-5G (later F-20) looked better as a twenty series rather than just another teen. In an attempt to aid sales, they got to skip to F-20. Total sales were zip anyway. The F-21 Kfir aircraft were based somewhere on the East Coast and at Yuma, AZ. They have been gone several years. I assume they also visited Miramar, but I never got to see one and they didn't show up at the Annual Airshow. Driving through Yuma one time I did a detour to the airport but was unable to see any (it was a weekend and they were reported to be off in a corner by themselves). Possibly in an attempt to cover up the Aurora slip-up in the now famous budget request, someone (in AW&ST?) claimed that Aurora was merely an attempt to funnel more money into the then very black B-2 program. The thing that hurts in all this is that there are so many rumors and counter rumors that even if we find out the truth we don't know it until official confirmation. Since that is years away, we are sort of groping around in the dark hoping to see something. It is fun, though, isn't it? ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V2 #13 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from harbor.ecn.purdue.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).