From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V2 #86 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 27 February 1993 Volume 02 : Number 086 In this issue: Interesting sighting weather questions Russian Overflights of the past Re: Russian Overflights Of The Past Re: Interesting sighting Re: weather questions [none] Re: Interesting sighting Re: Interesting sighting Re: Sighting Re: Sighting See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom@gordian.com (Tom Ambrose) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 09:51:20 PST Subject: Interesting sighting There has not been a lot of activity on this group recently, but there's been a lot of activity in the air around my house. I live in southern Cal, Newport Beach to be exact. My condo has a 180 degree view of the ocean. Santa Catalina Island is in clear view from there. Recently, there has been a lot of rain in SoCal, so generally the ceiling has been 12,000 feet or lower. There has also been a lot of sonic booms. Perhaps, the two are related? There is generally a lot of activity in the air around our place. Commercial planes from John Wayne circle just south of us. Helicopters from Tustin Marine Helicopter Base fly up and down the coast. F-18's (and sometimes F-14's and 16's) from El Toro Marine Air Station practice bombing San Clemente Island which is SW of Catalina. Helicopters from Corronado practice assaults with the SEALs there also. There's a P-51 that comes by twice a month. He stays right over the water and knife-edges around the pier. Sometimes, F-4's a nearby ANG pass by. So, we get our share of air activity. Last year, we also got the sonic booms waking us up around 6am late in the week. It was every week, like clockwork. Its been a few months without them, though. The past two weeks have seen an increase in booms and not just early in the morning. A few times a day it shakes the windows in the condo (my rommate is home all day). (finally, the point) Yesterday, I was getting ready to leave for work around 11am (its nice being a design engineer in a small company). The whole house started shaking. There was a low, deep rumble coming from the ocean side. I went to the porch with my roommate. We saw a large aircraft with two smaller chase planes. Due to the low ceiling, all three were obscured by the clouds. I couldn't get a good look, even with the binoculars. I did get glimpses of part of it. It looked white or dull silver. I could not really figure out what shape it was. It definitely did not sound like anything I've ever heard. All three were climbing very fast. BTW, my roommate is also an aviation buff. He was a backseater in F-4's in Nam. He didn't know what it was either. He agreed one the white/silver speculation. It may not have been anything exciting and/or exotic, but I'm not sure. Any clues? Anyone know of anything like that that was supposed to be flying yesterday? - -tom -------------------------------------------------------------- | Thomas P. Ambrose Gordian, Inc., Santa Ana Heights, CA | | tom@gordian.com phone: 714-850-0205 fax: 714-850-0533 | \____________________________________________________________/ | | | "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes | \ a bit longer." -- Henry Kissinger / \------------------------------------------------------------/ ------------------------------ From: "S.K. Whiteman" <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:WHITEMAN@IPFWVM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 13:42:47 EST Subject: weather questions >tom@gordian.com (Tom Ambrose) >Recently, there has been a lot of rain in SoCal, so generally the ceiling has >been 12,000 feet or lower. There has also been a lot of sonic booms. Perhaps, Sounds like Tom has a continuing air show for a neighbor... The weather may be fertile ground for speculation; what is the effect of rain on a high Mach A/C? Will hitting a rain drop put a kink in your day? Can an SR-71 engine deal with ice formation; would ice form? etc.....Does anyone know or are these A/C so specialized that they are only fair weather flyers? Sam ------------------------------ From: "JOE P." Date: 26 Feb 1993 13:54:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Russian Overflights of the past I just caught (or at least thought I caught) a very breif teaser on one of the late night "news" programs last night regarding the Gary Powers U-2 shootdown. The tease was that there were 200 or more flyers who were shot down, crashed, landed or vanished in various U-2 flights over Russia (ex USSR) in the past years. I did not catch what show or when it was to be aired. If anybody on the list caught this info, please either post or reply so I know when to set the vcr for. The video showed a U-2 in either take-off or landing mode for just a second or two. From the hallowed halls of Edinboro University- (814) 732-2484 and direct from the terminal of, - 142 Miller Bldg. - Edinboro Univ. Joe Pyrdek pyrdek@edinboro.edu - Edinboro PA 16444 ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1993 12:03:51 -0800 Subject: Re: Russian Overflights Of The Past Joe Pyrdek writes: >I just caught (or at least thought I caught) a very breif teaser >on one of the late night "news" programs last night regarding the >Gary Powers U-2 shootdown. > >The tease was that there were 200 or more flyers who were shot down, >crashed, landed or vanished in various U-2 flights over Russia (ex USSR) >in the past years. I did not catch what show or when it was to be >aired. If anybody on the list caught this info, please either post >or reply so I know when to set the vcr for. > >The video showed a U-2 in either take-off or landing mode for just >a second or two. Yes, I saw it too. The add you saw was for Prime Time Live. That particluar show will be aired next Thursday 3/4/93. Yes, Sam Donaldson mentioned that there were 200 Americans who lost their lives on airborne spy missions during the cold war. Their families were never told how they lost their lives. So in other words, there were many more Gary Powers kinds of incidents than we know about. Looks like a fascinating show! Larry ------------------------------ From: tom@gordian.com (Tom Ambrose) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 12:08:30 PST Subject: Re: Interesting sighting I'll just put Larry's questions and my respones in, so the message is not too long. > Did it [my condo] appear to be shaking from engine sound? Yes. Most definitely. > What were the relative sizes of the aircraft? The chase planes looked small, like F-5's or 16's. The larger plane was 2-3 times larger. > Could either of you identify the 'chase' aircraft? No. I couldn't see them too well. They appeared fighter-like. The rumble was washing out the sound of the smaller engines, so I couldn't even get a good listen. > You are certain of 'two' chase airplanes? Pretty certain. The clouds were pretty dense. > How close were the 'chase' aircraft flying to the large aircraft? > Where were they flying formation (relative to the bigger aircraft)? The chase planes were at 7 o'clock relative to the larger plane. So, behind, to the left and slightly lower. They appeared to be in a loose formation. > Were they coming towards you, or flying away? > What direction of travel? > Also, how far off-coast did they look? They were flying away from the coast. They were somewhat north of us and heading west and slightly north. Heading mostly away from us. They were probably 4 or 5 miles from the coast when we saw them. It was kinda hard to tell from our vantage point. They were climbing out at 25-30 degrees. I didn't see any burners. I'll check with Hank. As far as it being channeled noise from a rocket test, it really appeared to be associated with the objects we saw. > Did it look like they were in bright sun above the clouds? > Did any other physical visual characteristics stand out? They were in the clouds. The cloud bank was pretty thick. I didn't see any sunlight. > What shape did it look like to you? A big, long blob. We were mostly seeing the "shadow" through the clouds. I wish I had seen more of a shape. :-( > Describe the sound. It was a low, deep rumble. We could feel it pretty well. It shook the glass at first. It didn't sound much like a jet. It sounded closer to a rocket, but I've only been to one rocket launch and that was a few years back. Once again, not as much info as had wished. It all seemed to happen so fast. It faded out pretty quickly. Between the Popular Science article and this, I'm getting that urge to make the Groom Lake excursion again. My roommate and I have discussed it before, but never actually made the trip. Maybe soon. Hope this helps, - -tom ------------------------------ From: Paul Michael Keller Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 16:13:46 -0500 Subject: Re: weather questions Sam Whiteman writes: > The weather may be fertile ground for speculation; what > is the effect of rain on a high Mach A/C? Will hitting > a rain drop put a kink in your day? Can an SR-71 engine > deal with ice formation; would ice form? etc.....Does > anyone know or are these A/C so specialized that they > are only fair weather flyers? Well, I can't say much about rain, but ice should be a non-problem for high mach A/C. From an article in AvLeak of several years years ago the skin friction at high subsonic speeds and up is enough to prevent ice formation. This was from an article reporting on the the B1-B crash in the Dakotas a few years ago. Seems the bone-B has no wing deicing provisions, even at its speed it's unnecessary. Paul ------------------------------ From: gt6745b@prism.gatech.edu Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 16:33:29 -0500 Subject: [none] I seem to remember that someone scanned a picture of the Pratt & Whitney F119 engine prototype. Where is it? Can someone mail it to me or put it on FTP? Thanks. -Michael Michael David Knight "Phantoms | Phorever" Georgia Institute of Technology /O\ Aerospace Engineering (404)676-0520 \_______[|(.)|]_______/ gt6745b@prism.gatech.edu o ++ O ++ o ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1993 16:46:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Interesting sighting Are you sure that it wasn't black? They've been flying the B-2 off the coast recently and it's really good at looking like a blob at certain angles. If it was silver or white, of course, that's not it. They're doing some cruise missile work, too, but those B-52s are also dark. They use F-16 chases, but that's not much of a clue. It's not the A-3 "Whale with a Tail" since that's only about 3 times the size of the F-16. Oh, what color were the chase planes? The only white F-16s are the support aircraft here at Edwards. Most T-38s are white, of course, and there are no F-5s flying here in the states (they're export fighters). But T-38s and F-5s are quite indistinguishable from a distance. Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com ------------------------------ From: tom@gordian.com (Tom Ambrose) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 14:10:52 PST Subject: Re: Interesting sighting Mary Shafer writes: > Are you sure that it wasn't black? They've been flying the B-2 off the > coast recently and it's really good at looking like a blob at certain > angles. If it was silver or white, of course, that's not it. Pretty sure it was white or dull silver. From the angle that the plane was at from us, it didn't look wide enough to be the B-2. Although, I've never seen the B-2 in the air. > They're doing some cruise missile work, too, but those B-52s are also > dark. They use F-16 chases, but that's not much of a clue. Isn't the B-52 that recently dropped the Pegasus (the one that was at the Edward's Open House) silver or am I way off? > It's not the A-3 "Whale with a Tail" since that's only about 3 times the > size of the F-16. > > Oh, what color were the chase planes? The only white F-16s are the > support aircraft here at Edwards. Most T-38s are white, of course, and > there are no F-5s flying here in the states (they're export fighters). > But T-38s and F-5s are quite indistinguishable from a distance. My roommate said the chase planes looked white. I didn't see. They could've been T-38s. It was pretty good distance. It was probably nothing exciting and we just thought it sounded different. It was definitely something that hasn't flown over us since I've lived there. - -tom ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1993 15:15:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Sighting Mary Shafer writes: >> Are you sure that it wasn't black? They've been flying the B-2 off the >> coast recently and it's really good at looking like a blob at certain >> angles. If it was silver or white, of course, that's not it. Tom Ambrose responds: >Pretty sure it was white or dull silver. > ... >My roommate said the chase planes looked white. I didn't see. They could've >been T-38s. It was pretty good distance. >It was probably nothing exciting and we just thought it sounded different. It >was definitely something that hasn't flown over us since I've lived there. I wouldn't be too sure about it being unexciting. Several details of youre experience match other sightings of the XB-70 like bird: BIG rocket-like sound Shape (long blob) 3 times longer than F-16 Color 2 Chase Aircraft Description of climb rate It was definitely different Of course it's not conclusive. Let's just say it's a 'possible'. Don't write it off yet. Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky again. I would keep equipment handy if I were you. Now, since you suddenly heard the engines (is that correct?) is it safe to say you heard no aircraft sound before you heard the windows rattling. If you did, describe the sound. You didn't hear the chase aircraft, before the loud rumble, is that correct? Larry ------------------------------ From: tom@gordian.com (Tom Ambrose) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 16:14:49 PST Subject: Re: Sighting > Of course it's not conclusive. Let's just say it's a 'possible'. > Don't write it off yet. Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky again. > I would keep equipment handy if I were you. I brought my camera downstairs. I don't have a camcorder. > Now, since you suddenly heard the engines (is that correct?) is it > safe to say you heard no aircraft sound before you heard the windows > rattling. If you did, describe the sound. You didn't hear the > chase aircraft, before the loud rumble, is that correct? I didn't notice any other engines before the rumble. Remember, with so many planes and helicopters around, the only ones I can distinguish by sounds alone are the occasional F-16's (they scream when your in front of them) and the P-51. I was in my room in the front of the condo (opposite the water) at the time the glass started shaking. I ran over to my roommate's balcony to look. He was downstairs on the porch at the time. He told me he was going to keep the porch door cracked, so he might hear it a bit sooner. The ceiling is once again low in SoCal. - -tom ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V2 #86 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@ecn.purdue.edu". 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