From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #18 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 21 September 1993 Volume 04 : Number 018 In this issue: Manual request USAF Special mission markings Re: USAF Plant 42 -- trip report Reno Air Races Re: Reno Report Re: USAF Special mission markings Re: USAF Special mission markings Re: USAF Special mission markings Re: USAF Special mission markings See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Pavek Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 11:30:45 -0700 Subject: Manual request Hi guys... what better place to ask a favour? I am in need of a copy of the most recent USAF T.O. 1-1-4, Exterior Finishes, Insignia and Markings Applicable to USAF Aircraft If that isn't possible (though I really hope it is...) then If someone has it and could copy a few pages for me, I'd appreciate it as well. I'd really prefer a manual though, and would happily accept anything later than my 1Jan73/ch17-13Oct77 version. I'd pay for it, and postage, too. Why? Two reasons. I build models and can use the marking info. And, I'm developing a font based on the specs in the manual. It will be Postscript and Truetype, as necessary. Any equivalent manuals from the Army or Navy (or whomever, foreign countries, whatever) would also be of interest. Thanks, Rick SR-75/XR-7 _|_*O*_|_ | Rick Pavek \ __|__ / | HA!! kuryakin@halcyon.com \______-/ [_] \-______/ | Ruby - \-\___/-/ | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: Rick Pavek Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 11:43:18 -0700 Subject: USAF Special mission markings In a thread on one of the USENET groups people were talking about black, unmarked helicopters. As an interesting tidbit, I submit the following: From TO 1-1-4, 13Oct77, Exterior Finishes,etc... Section 1-9 Authorized Deviations b. AFSC and MAC aircraft assigned in direct support of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) in nuclear research will be painted as required for the safe accomplishment of that mission. AFSC, MAC and AFLC (WRALC/MMIRDA) will coordinate on the type of paint and paint scheme required. This provision is applicable only to those aircraft that sctively engage in required AEC tests and not to administrative support aircraft. - -------end tidbit Basically, when read with the rest of the manual, this says that the mentioned commands do not need to comply with standard AF regulations regarding the markings on aircraft. It also infers that it could be anything, or nothing since it calls upon the various commands to decide how to do it. Anybody know what AFSC (Air Force Systems Command?), AFLC, WRALC, and MMIRDA stand for? I'll bet someone out there has a USAF Acronym Decoder Ring, eh? Now if I could just get someone to send me the appropriate marking regs from the above commands... ;-) Rick SR-75/XR-7 _|_*O*_|_ | Rick Pavek \ __|__ / | HA!! kuryakin@halcyon.com \_______/_(_)_\_______/ | Ruby - \__/\___/\__/ | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: Jeffrey_Lo@ccm11.sc.intel.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 13:46:34 PST Subject: Re: USAF Plant 42 -- trip report >You will see 2 runways -- the closest one (which runs >roughly SW-to-NE) belongs to Palmdale Regional Airport, and the further one ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >(which runs roughly W-to-E) is part of Plant 42. Hmm, I wasn't aware there was any non-military related activity at the airport - -- I don't recall having seen Palmdale listed in any of my general aviation airport guide or the NOAA Airport/Facilities Directory. I just assumed all of the non-military aviation in the area was based at nearby Fox Field in Lancaster or farther north at Mojave. I'll have to go home and check again. Maybe I'll land there and check out Blackbird airpark the next time I fly to So. CA if it's possible. >Judging from my map,Plant 42's >runway appears to be about 13000 feet (4000 m) long. Pretty close, the Los Angeles sectional chart lists it at 12,000 feet. >126.1 - Joshua Approach/Departure (I heard a controller giving a private >plane instructions on how to avoid Plant 42's restricted air space on >this channel) Plant 42 doesn't have any restricted airspace surrounding it. In fact I have overflown them a number of times in a Cessna, about 2000 feet AGL smack over the center of the field (while talking to Palmdale tower). There are also a number of airways that radiate out from the VORTAC on the field at Palmdale. If you go about 10 miles north/northeast you will however run into good ol' R-2515 over Edwards AFB. > >Scanner frequencies (in MHz): > >123.7 - Palmdale Airport tower >Plant 42 tower is: 119.2/317.6 Unless it has been changed, or there is more than one frequency, the one on the sectional chart I have at work (admittedly, it's about a year out of date) is 123.7. - -- Jeff Lo jlo@gomez.intel.com ------------------------------ From: Jeffrey_Lo@ccm11.sc.intel.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 14:12:34 PST Subject: Reno Air Races I spent last weekend in Reno for the annual National Championship Air Races out at the old Stead AFB. Normally, this wouldn't be skunk-works material except for the F-117A and U-2 fly-bys that were scheduled. Unfortunately, they never showed. The one very unexpected part of the show was during the F-16 flight demonstration in between a couple of races on Saturday. The Air Force Captain was making his high speed pass, and I thought, "Wow, this guy is really cooking!". We were about as close as you could get, probably a few hundred yards, when the pilot leaned a bit harder on the throttle tnan he should have, and ... "BOOM! BOOM!". First sonic boom I've heard in years, and the only one I ever heard outside of the Mojave desert. I wonder if he got in trouble for that ... he didn't do it the next day. Not all of Reno was fun and games. The passing of an era was marked at Reno this year. Bob Hoover has indeed lost his medical certificate. Consequently, the show program notwithstanding, he was unable to fly his traditional airshow routine in the Twin Commander. He was able to fly in the safety plane for the unlimited races, but instead of flying his faithful Mustang "Ol Yeller", he was riding in the back seat of someone else's P-51D with another pilot in the front. He was able to help the pilot of "Deja Vu" figure out how to get the Mustang's gear down and safely land after the control linkage broke. I've got to wonder if the problem had anything to do with the fact that this same plane had pulled 10.5 G's pulling out from some wake turbulence the day before. On a sadder note, the Burt Rutan built composite twin engine Pond Racer crashed in practice last Tuesday. Initial reports I heard indicated an engine failure, after which the pilot set up for a single-engine landing, followed by the other engine failing, and possibly leaving one prop in flat pitch, while the plane was on short final. The pilot, Rick Brickert, was killed and the plane completely destroyed. The missing man formation was flown in Rick's honor just before the Gold unlimited final on Sunday. Well, this is wandering off of the Skunk Works charter, but I thought that many of you would be interested. - -- Jeff Lo jlo@gomez.intel.com ------------------------------ From: Rick Pavek Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 15:10:55 -0700 Subject: Re: Reno Report Yes, it's interesting and appreciated. Thanks. Whew, bad news about Hoover. But then he's been doing this for what seems like centuries... Thanks again, Rick SR-75/XR-7 _|_*O*_|_ | Rick Pavek \ __|__ / | HA!! kuryakin@halcyon.com \_______/_(_)_\_______/ | Ruby - \__/\___/\__/ | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 00:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: USAF Special mission markings > >From TO 1-1-4, 13Oct77, Exterior Finishes,etc... > > Section 1-9 Authorized Deviations > > b. AFSC and MAC aircraft assigned in direct support of the Atomic > Energy Commission (AEC) in nuclear research will be painted as > required for the safe accomplishment of that mission. AFSC, MAC > and AFLC (WRALC/MMIRDA) will coordinate on the type of paint and > paint scheme required. This provision is applicable only to those > aircraft that sctively engage in required AEC tests and not to > administrative support aircraft. > > -------end tidbit > > Anybody know what AFSC (Air Force Systems Command?), AFLC, WRALC, > and MMIRDA stand for? AFSC = Air Force Systems Command (now AF Materiel Command) -- RDTE & acquisition of USAF weapons systems. AFLC = Air Force Logistics Command (now part of AFMC) -- manages & designs logistical systems & supply procedures. WRALC = Warner Robins Air Logistics Center (now part of AFMC) at Robins AFB, GA. The WRALC provides maintenance & logistical support for certain aircraft types, and systems like LANTIRN, etc. I'll have to check a reference source for MMIRDA. It probably is/was a field operating agency or something. Since we're on the topic of these 'mysterious black helicopters,' unless you're flying at night, one was to really draw attention to yourself/your operation is to fly daytime nap-of-earth missions in aircraft that are painted black, & have no or very few markings. Black has a psychological factor to it (which is why many SWAT teams wear black during daytime operations) & might be good for low-light level/night missions, but certainly not daytime! Most people wouldn't think too much of seeing a flight of olive-drab Hueys, but it turns into a major event (often invoking paranoia) if the aircraft are black. Black may or may not increase the IR profile of the helo, although it might not be much larger than a standard OD bird. I researched a few black helos I saw out in California a few years ago, & it turns out they're operated by an Army SF unit based at the old Hamilton AFB, near San Francisco. A - -- Tim Tyler Internet: tim@ais.org MCI Mail: 442-5735 GEnie: T.Tyler5 P.O. Box 443 C$erve: 72571,1005 DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil Ypsilanti MI Packet: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA 48197 ------------------------------ From: Rick Pavek Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 21:40:38 -0700 Subject: Re: USAF Special mission markings I've wondered if these a/c are dark OD Green rather than black. Now I know that the US Army Special Forces uses Aircraft that are painted black, which yours turned out to be... would we assume that the bulk of the black helicopters are SF? Thanks for the comments. Rick ------------------------------ From: tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 01:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: USAF Special mission markings > I've wondered if these a/c are dark OD Green rather than black. That's something I've thought about, too. I've never been able to talk to someone who has actually seen these 'mysterious' aircraft & to try & judge their knowledge about aircraft & how sure they were of the paint scheme. Most of the posting about these sighting automatically link the aircraft to some sort of crazy government-conspiracy program, which certainly makes me wonder about the accuracy of the sighting report... The USN & USAF have a lot of aircraft in low-vis grey paint schemes, & of course many of the USCS aircraft are black... I wonder why the SR-71s & U-2Rs are flat black (OK, deep blue for you purists...), instead of a bluish-grey underside and a greenish-grey or even woodland camo topside? Understanding why they are/were basically flat-black might help us make educated guesses as to why helos operating during the daytime would also be black. > Now I know that the US Army Special Forces uses Aircraft that are painted > black, which yours turned out to be... would we assume that the bulk > of the black helicopters are SF? > If you study special operations forces, one of the few qualities that they all seem to have in common is that they operate quickly & quietly in small cells or teams. It doesn't matter how nice thir equipment is, or how well trained they are. If they don't have good operational security, they lose one of their most important force-multipliers. Those guys & girls will do just about anything, as long as they know they have the element of suprise. Using black helos just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, if you're trying to be clandestine during the day, or blend in with the regular troops. There is much to be said for the psychological factor though for certain missions. > Thanks for the comments. > Idle speculation! :) > Rick - -- Tim Tyler Internet: tim@ais.org MCI Mail: 442-5735 GEnie: T.Tyler5 P.O. Box 443 C$erve: 72571,1005 DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil Ypsilanti MI Packet: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA 48197 ------------------------------ From: Ian Woodrow Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 08:10:40 BST Subject: Re: USAF Special mission markings tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) said:- > Using black helos just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, if you're > trying to be clandestine during the day, or blend in with the regular > troops. There is much to be said for the psychological factor though for > certain missions. I would just paint my helo in a civilian scheme if I wanted to be clandestine in day time. Folk are gonna see it anyway so does it matter how bright it is ? woody ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #18 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@ecn.purdue.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from harbor.ecn.purdue.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).