From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #59 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 10 November 1993 Volume 04 : Number 059 In this issue: Aurora on CBS Re: Watch CBS Tonight! Soviet Atomic Bomb (was Re: Watch CBS Tonight!) Freedom Freedom of Information Act Re: Soviet Atomic Bomb (was Re: Watch CBS Tonight!) SR-71 and official speed Re: I saw the ABC report... Re: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! Re: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! Re: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Allegrezza 09-Nov-1993 0717 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 07:13:25 EST Subject: Aurora on CBS I saw the ABC story, but missed the CBS story, unless it was in the first minute of the 6:30 EST feed (not likely). Did it run anywhere? ABC's file footage of the "MiG-25" looked suspiciously like the MiG-29. :-) George George Allegrezza | "There's nothing wrong with him that can't be Digital Equipment Corporation | fixed with some Prozac and a polo mallet." Littleton MA USA | -- Woody Allen, "Manhattan allegrezza@tnpubs.enet.dec.com | Murder Mystery" ------------------------------ From: (Thorongil) Paul Adams Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 07:53:32 CST Subject: Re: Watch CBS Tonight! Well, I missed the bit on the Testor's model, but I did catch someting else that was intresting - if a bit off charter. Did anyone else see the segment on CBS on recently declassified Soviet Union footage of an atomic bomb test? The footage showed the Soviets exploding an atomic bomb and then had their tropps operating around the area to see how combat would be affected. The last bit of the segment told how survivors are petitioning the new government to provide compensation for the illnesses they now experience and showed one bald & blind serviceman. Pretty intresting stuff. Paul \ ___ / Paul Adams \ /___\ / paul@erc.msstate.edu ____________\___/__.__\___/____________ YF-22 \ \ / / \__/\___/\__/ ------------------------------ From: Brent L. Bates ViGYAN AAD/TAB Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 09:05:25 -0500 Subject: Soviet Atomic Bomb (was Re: Watch CBS Tonight!) I saw (actually heard, I was in the kitchen at the time) the same thing on NBC. The Russian government said they couldn't be sued, because everything happenend under a different (i.e. Soviet) government. Brent L. Bates Phone:(804) 864-2854 M.S. 361 FAX:(804) 864-8469 NASA Langley Research Center Hampton, Virginia 23681-0001 E-mail: blbates@aero36.larc.nasa.gov or B.L.BATES@larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 8:14:22 EST Subject: Freedom A while back, Paul McGinnis wrote: Here is a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request I've filed with the U.S. Air Force about the mysterious aircraft code-named "Senior Citizen". As of today (October 6, 1993) they have not made their initial response, although they legally have 30 days to do so (several monthes ago, I filed a FOIA request on another subject with the Department of Defense and their initial response was that there were 989 requests ahead of mine...) (sorry about the strange looking format -- this resulted from my word processor saving as ASCII) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- September 27, 1993 Freedom of Information Act Officer-USAF SAF/AADADF, Room 4A1088C The Pentagon Washington, DC 20330 This is a request under the Freedom of Information Act. I request that copies of any documents summarizing or illustrating the aircraft known as "Senior Citizen" (1993 Defense Program Element 0401316F) be provided to me. I have been unable to locate any reference to this program in the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1994, and I believe this program has been cancelled. Under this FOIA request, I also request information indicating whether or not this aircraft was tested at the USAF facility at Groom Lake,Nevada described in the aviation press and House of Representatives report 98-1046 (98th Congress, 2nd Session, also described in H.R. 4932 for this session of Congress). I also request a summary of the status of aircraft test programs at Groom Lake. This information is not for commercial use, but may be provided to various taxpayer groups or members of Congress. I request a waiver of all fees for this request, but I am willing to pay up to $100 in fees for this request. ************************************************************************************ I was wondering if there was ever a response to this inquery yet? ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 8:21:33 EST Subject: Freedom of Information Act A while back, Paul McGinnis wrote: > > > Here is a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request I've filed with > the U.S. Air Force about the mysterious aircraft code-named "Senior > Citizen". As of today (October 6, 1993) they have not made their > initial response, although they legally have 30 days to do so (several > monthes ago, I filed a FOIA request on another subject with the Department > of Defense and their initial response was that there were 989 requests > ahead of mine...) > > (sorry about the strange looking format -- this resulted from my word > processor saving as ASCII) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > September 27, 1993 > > Freedom of Information Act Officer-USAF > SAF/AADADF, Room 4A1088C > The Pentagon > Washington, DC 20330 > > This is a request under the Freedom of Information Act. I request that > copies of any documents summarizing or illustrating the aircraft known as > "Senior Citizen" (1993 Defense Program Element 0401316F) be provided to me. > I have been unable to locate any reference to this program in the National > Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1994, and I believe this program > has been cancelled. > > Under this FOIA request, I also request information indicating whether > or not this aircraft was tested at the USAF facility at Groom Lake,Nevada > described in the aviation press and House of Representatives report 98-1046 > (98th Congress, 2nd Session, also described in H.R. 4932 for this session > of Congress). I also request a summary of the status of aircraft test > programs at Groom Lake. > > This information is not for commercial use, but may be provided to various > taxpayer groups or members of Congress. I request a waiver of all fees for this > request, but I am willing to pay up to $100 in fees for this request. ******************************************************************************* I was wondering if there was ever a response to this inquery yet? - -- ------==========**********==========------ Douglas J. Tiffany u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings 1202 Industrial Drive Van Wert, Ohio 45891 (419)238-9533 Fax: (419)238-2267 "Even a fish stays out of trouble when he keeps his mouth shut!" ------------------------------ From: Scott.Griffith@Eng.Sun.COM (Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:01:44 -0800 Subject: Re: Soviet Atomic Bomb (was Re: Watch CBS Tonight!) On Nov 9, Brent L. Bates wrote: > I saw (actually heard, I was in the kitchen at the time) the same thing > on NBC. The Russian government said they couldn't be sued, because everything > happenend under a different (i.e. Soviet) government. Hmm. Interesting. I wonder, then, how our government has managed to hold all of US off all these years? As an engrossing, and not _overly_ inflammatory reference, I'd direct your attention to a book entitled "American Ground Zero". If you're a student of this sort of thing, you might find it mildly interesting. And that's the last I'll say of it, since it's well off the topic of this list. I'm a downwinder myself... - -skod - -- Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware Who didn't have _anything_ to do with the 386i... Nope, not a bit. Nothing at all. Not me, nosir. Nope. Return Path : skod@trenco.Eng.Sun.COM ------------------------------ From: tslage78@Calvin.EDU (Thomas Slager) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 11:58:53 EST Subject: SR-71 and official speed This has all been rehashed before but: I just got the new MACH 1 cataloge in the mail. In it, they have a few books that they are offering for sale. With each book, they have a little excerpt. This comes from THE UNTOUCHABLES: mission accomplished by Brian Shul and Walter Watson jr. "With spikes and doors as tight as they can get, we are racing against the time it could atake a missile to reach our altitude. It is a race this jet will not let us lose. The Mach eases to 3.5 as we crest 80,000 feet. We are a bullet now--except faster. We hit the turn, and I feel some releif as our nose swings away from away from a country we have seen quite enough of. Screaming past Tripoli, our phenomenal speed continues to rise,..." Mach 3.5+ our speed continues to rise? Hello! I thought the official speed was just over Mach 3. Anyone care to comment? - -- I seem to be lying in a dark hole. | Tom Slager jr. What does that remind me of? | tslage78@ursa.calvin.edu Ah yes, life. --Marvin | 'Ees just zis guy, You know? ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:01:08 -0800 Subject: Re: I saw the ABC report... I'm glad that people were able to catch it with such late notice. I'm also glad that people were favorably impressed (except for the mislabeled MIG-29, and ignoring NASA's flying SR-71). Unfortunately I was not impressed, but that was only because I knew who was interviewed and therefore who was NOT shown. But, don't get me wrong. I may not have been impressed, but I did enjoy it! It was better than nothing certainly. Excuse my rather high standards here. Regarding the CBS show. It did NOT show last night, as you all either now know or have just figured out. However, they DO have a program on this. They have bought pictures etc. So I would continue to watch for it. The CBS show may get more substantial, in that the Groom Lake land grab should also be mentioned and therefore additional industry analysts and experts should be shown. Something that ABC also had, but elected not to show. To give you an example of how ABC decided to give a rather bland program on this, AW&ST shared with ABC one of the sources to a new AURORA sighting, that has NOT been published yet. Evidently ABC felt there wasn't time or something. The witness AW&ST shared with them is a rather good one. Too bad! Larry ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 14:56:51 EST Subject: Re: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! > From skunk-works-owner@ecn.purdue.edu Tue Sep 7 21:00:33 1993 > To: skunk-works@orchestra.ecn.purdue.edu > Subject: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! > Cc: larry@ichips.intel.com > Sender: skunk-works-owner@ecn.purdue.edu > Content-Length: 2158 > X-Lines: 63 > > > > > A little follow-up on my morning post about the new 50th Anniv. Skunk Works > book. SO, HAS ANYBODY SEEN A COPY YET. I ORDERED IT BACK IN SEPTEMBER BUT HAVEN'T SEEN A THING YET.......JUST WONDERING. :| > > Being a member of the skunk-works mail list can save you almost 5 bucks! > See below! > > It looks like it is actually being carried to the printer tomorrow! > > The book should be available in 3-4 weeks. It can be purchased now from > AEROFAX at 1-800-733-2329 (an 800 number even!) via VISA/Master Card. > > Title: "Lockheed's Skunk Works, The First Fifty Years" > Containing: 216 pages; 350 photos (many in color); and approx. 100 drawings; > Price: > Softbound: > before Sept. 30, 1993: $25.00 > after Sept. 30, 1993: $29.95 > > Hardbound, signed by Skunk Works luminaries like Ben Rich: $50.00 > > Lockheed Skunk Works commissioned AEROFAX to perform this valuable effort > of publishing and documenting a comprehensive history of the Skunk Work's > first 50 years, that would be available to the general public. > > The information in this book comes from interviews with Skunk Works personnel, > the Skunk Works photo archives, and previously unpublished Skunk Works design > proposals. > > For example, Kelly Johnson evidently kept quite a bit of historical > documentation in the form of design notebooks, status reports, memos, etc. > There is a lot of previously unpublished information in the form of data > and drawings from these sources, in this book. Kelly's widow also provided > design documentation that's now in her possession, towards this effort. > > The book covers the period of history from the start of the Skunk Works > (the XP-80) up to the present, as measured by the F-117A Stealth Fighter. > > Here's a list of goodies that I've been told are in the book: > > Drawings of ALL the Lockheed ARCHANGEL proposals from the A-1 thru > the A-11. (AWESOME!) > > Drawings of all SUNTAN proposals (that's what he said!) > > Both top and bottom photos of HAVE BLUE (including camo. paint version) > > New M-12/D-21A photos. > > New B-52H/D-21B photos. (FINALLY!) > > Drawings of the NAVY version of the F-117A. > > The above is just a taste of the kind of stuff that's in there! > > WOW! > > Tomorrow, I'll pass on some of the stories about the problems they had getting > this book out. > > Larry > ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:39:15 -0800 Subject: Re: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! >> A little follow-up on my morning post about the new 50th Anniv. Skunk Works >> book. Paul Mangan writes: >SO, HAS ANYBODY SEEN A COPY YET. I ORDERED IT BACK IN SEPTEMBER B >HAVEN'T SEEN A THING YET.......JUST WONDERING. :| Did you get a small letter of apology from AEROFAX back about a month ago that said the book is delayed, but will be out soon? I decided to call today (1-800-733-2329) to get the latest poop. Evidently the B+W is done, they have a little more to do on the color, then the binding is left. They think that will be done so they can ship the books by the end of next week (why do I think that's a little agressive?). Anyway, if you want to call them, feel free. Evidently, while the book was at the printer, some USAF Dept., that didn't know what was going on, found out about the book and started to raise a red flag saying that there was too much coming out in this book. Unfortunately, this caused Lockheed to call AEROFAX and tell them to stop publication. Unfortunately, AEROFAX had to push this thing through by getting the new Sec. Of The Air Force involved. There had been complete declassification of everything in the book by a number of agencies before the book even went to print, but there was this one department that didn't get the word evidently. The book is intact, they only had to change one photo caption (evidently someone also tried to reclassify something that had been declassified way back in 1979 - AEROFAX had documentation explaining the declassification and was able to thwart the reclassification effort). So the book is intact. Larry ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 14:56:51 EST Subject: Re: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! > From skunk-works-owner@ecn.purdue.edu Tue Sep 7 21:00:33 1993 > To: skunk-works@orchestra.ecn.purdue.edu > Subject: New Book Notice. Read and maybe save 5 bucks! > Cc: larry@ichips.intel.com > Sender: skunk-works-owner@ecn.purdue.edu > Content-Length: 2158 > X-Lines: 63 > > > > > A little follow-up on my morning post about the new 50th Anniv. Skunk Works > book. SO, HAS ANYBODY SEEN A COPY YET. I ORDERED IT BACK IN SEPTEMBER BUT HAVEN'T SEEN A THING YET.......JUST WONDERING. :| > > Being a member of the skunk-works mail list can save you almost 5 bucks! > See below! > > It looks like it is actually being carried to the printer tomorrow! > > The book should be available in 3-4 weeks. It can be purchased now from > AEROFAX at 1-800-733-2329 (an 800 number even!) via VISA/Master Card. > > Title: "Lockheed's Skunk Works, The First Fifty Years" > Containing: 216 pages; 350 photos (many in color); and approx. 100 drawings; > Price: > Softbound: > before Sept. 30, 1993: $25.00 > after Sept. 30, 1993: $29.95 > > Hardbound, signed by Skunk Works luminaries like Ben Rich: $50.00 > > Lockheed Skunk Works commissioned AEROFAX to perform this valuable effort > of publishing and documenting a comprehensive history of the Skunk Work's > first 50 years, that would be available to the general public. > > The information in this book comes from interviews with Skunk Works personnel, > the Skunk Works photo archives, and previously unpublished Skunk Works design > proposals. > > For example, Kelly Johnson evidently kept quite a bit of historical > documentation in the form of design notebooks, status reports, memos, etc. > There is a lot of previously unpublished information in the form of data > and drawings from these sources, in this book. Kelly's widow also provided > design documentation that's now in her possession, towards this effort. > > The book covers the period of history from the start of the Skunk Works > (the XP-80) up to the present, as measured by the F-117A Stealth Fighter. > > Here's a list of goodies that I've been told are in the book: > > Drawings of ALL the Lockheed ARCHANGEL proposals from the A-1 thru > the A-11. (AWESOME!) > > Drawings of all SUNTAN proposals (that's what he said!) > > Both top and bottom photos of HAVE BLUE (including camo. paint version) > > New M-12/D-21A photos. > > New B-52H/D-21B photos. (FINALLY!) > > Drawings of the NAVY version of the F-117A. > > The above is just a taste of the kind of stuff that's in there! > > WOW! > > Tomorrow, I'll pass on some of the stories about the problems they had getting > this book out. > > Larry > ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #59 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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