From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #65 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 17 November 1993 Volume 04 : Number 065 In this issue: Re: Satellite/aerial photos of Groom Lake (was: NBC News - CIA Photos) bounced SENIOR CITIZEN papers bounced SENIOR CITIZEN papers News from Flight International 17-23 Nov 1993 Re: NBC News - CIA Photos Re: Satellite/aerial photos of Groom Lake (was: NBC News - CIA Photos) Re: Satellite/aerial photos of Groom Lake (was: NBC News - CIA Photos) Re: NBC News - CIA Photos Skunk-works book Re: NBC News - CIA Photos Re: NBC News - CIA Photows Re: NBC News - CIA Photos Re: NBC News - CIA Photos Before we get too carried away... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bernie Rosen Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 07:38:06 PST Subject: Re: Satellite/aerial photos of Groom Lake (was: NBC News - CIA Photos) In msg <9311152302.AA23185@mesa.dsd.ES.COM> you wrote: > >In message <9311151947.AA18097@pages.com> Rich Thomson writes: > >As far as satellite images go... I realize that Landsat/EOSat probably >wouldn't be too forthcoming with any imagery, but what about Russian/SPOT >sources for imagery? It would be ironic that the only way to obtain >sat. images of Groom would be to go through the cash-strapped Russians, >but that's the nature of competition in a free market, isn't it? Ironic? Maybe, but likely. Back when the then new CIA building was being erected in McLean, a reporter called all over Washington officialdom to find out how many people would be working there. Of course he received no useful reply. In desparation, he called the Russian Embassy and, again of course, got the exact number. So, at least, the story goes. Bernie - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - brosen@ames.arc.nasa.gov NASA Ames AIS Office 233-7 (415) 604-6558 Moffett Field, CA 94035 ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 07:57:10 PST Subject: bounced SENIOR CITIZEN papers Philip R. Moyer , has informed me that a message I sent to skunk-works has bounced, because it was too large for the mailer (>10000 bytes). The message in question includes my original FOIA request for information on the SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft, a classified aircraft that has been in the tactical R&D Air Force budget, until FY '94 (which started Oct. 1, 1993). The Air Force denied my request, and I filed a long appeal of their denial. The whole collection of things I posted (FOIA request, Air Force denial,pages of legal arguments in my appeal) is ~12 Kbytes long. Since it is too large to be posted here, if you are interested in receiving the file, please send mail to me at my secondary logon, trader@shell.portal.com and I will mail you this document (some of you might have already seen it on rec.aviation.military). Essentially, the Air Force invoked Executive Order 12356 on the subject of SENIOR CITIZEN and I used E.O. 12356 against them. (By the way -- Thursday is the big day -- I'm going up to the Nevada Nuclear Test Site. My visit has been misrepresented in certain places on the 'net, but I will get to see things like Bilby Crater, P-Tunnel, Mercury, and CP-1). Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / trader@shell.portal.com ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 07:57:10 PST Subject: bounced SENIOR CITIZEN papers Philip R. Moyer , has informed me that a message I sent to skunk-works has bounced, because it was too large for the mailer (>10000 bytes). The message in question includes my original FOIA request for information on the SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft, a classified aircraft that has been in the tactical R&D Air Force budget, until FY '94 (which started Oct. 1, 1993). The Air Force denied my request, and I filed a long appeal of their denial. The whole collection of things I posted (FOIA request, Air Force denial,pages of legal arguments in my appeal) is ~12 Kbytes long. Since it is too large to be posted here, if you are interested in receiving the file, please send mail to me at my secondary logon, trader@shell.portal.com and I will mail you this document (some of you might have already seen it on rec.aviation.military). Essentially, the Air Force invoked Executive Order 12356 on the subject of SENIOR CITIZEN and I used E.O. 12356 against them. (By the way -- Thursday is the big day -- I'm going up to the Nevada Nuclear Test Site. My visit has been misrepresented in certain places on the 'net, but I will get to see things like Bilby Crater, P-Tunnel, Mercury, and CP-1). Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / trader@shell.portal.com ------------------------------ From: urf@ki.icl.se (Urban Fredriksson) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 19:25:28 MET Subject: News from Flight International 17-23 Nov 1993 The MiG project 701 is now cancelled. It was to have been an ultra-long range high-altitude interceptor. Cruise speed would have been Mach 2.2 at 17 km. Configuration is a cranked delta wing, single fin, twin engines close together with F-107-style intakes. A new Pentagon organisation called Defence Airborne Reconnaissance Office have taken charge of all US airborne manned and unmanned, unclassified and black reconnaissance projects. The emphasis seems to be on tactical intelligence. - -- Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se Docendo discimus ------------------------------ From: Rich Thomson Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 12:06:07 MST Subject: Re: NBC News - CIA Photos In message <9311160433.AA27476@csd4.csd.uwm.edu> Michael Matthew Guslick writes: > Actually, according to an informational letter from the Secrecy Oversight > Council, a mere $2000 will get you a detailed Russian satelite photo of the > base. So, anybody wanna chip in to get one? (half-serious here) I'll kick in $100 - $200, depending on the quality and resolution of the image. I can also scan the image at 300dpi for redistribution to other contributors. -- Rich - -- Between stimulus and response is the will to choose. ------------------------------------------------------------------ IRC: _Rich_ Rich Thomson Internet: rthomson@dsd.es.com Fractal Freak ------------------------------ From: Rich Thomson Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 12:20:28 MST Subject: Re: Satellite/aerial photos of Groom Lake (was: NBC News - CIA Photos) In message <9311161858.AA18327@ns.ge.com> Kinstrey writes: > Was there any discussion on the list about the photo? I haven't seen any direct discussion of the photo, although there have been mentions of the land grab at Groom. > Any interesting details one might glean from the pic? Here are some things I noticed: Location Object 990, 300 complex of hangar-sized buildings 735, 350 air traffic control for the runway? 230, 350 large circular surface disturbance -- possibly the result of mining at the Kelly mine (marked on USGS topo maps in a S/SE direction about 3 miles from the lake), it could also be a "borrow pit" used to construct the runways, or both 615, 315 very large hanga-type building 1173, 548 some kind of reflective object -- this is more readily identifiable in the photographic print The "location" is the object's pixel location in the image, with X increasing linearly from left to right and Y increasing linearly from bottom to top. If anyone else can assist in identifying objects in the photo, please post them to the list. -- Rich - -- Between stimulus and response is the will to choose. ------------------------------------------------------------------ IRC: _Rich_ Rich Thomson Internet: rthomson@dsd.es.com Fractal Freak ------------------------------ From: Rich Thomson Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 12:48:08 MST Subject: Re: Satellite/aerial photos of Groom Lake (was: NBC News - CIA Photos) In message <9311161929.AA19959@ns.ge.com> Kinstrey writes: > I'm using "xv" to view the pic, and although my pixel coords don't > exactly match yours, I could see each of what you listed. Xv's Y axis is flipped from what I reported, i.e. it increases linearly from top to bottom, not bottom to top. > Couple of things: > The large reflective object appears to be a lake (Groom Lake, > I assume?). It stretches from 440, 385, to the right edge of the pic. Yes, this is the S/SW corner of Groom Lake. The topography matches the area that would be seen from White Sides mountain. > There's a building on top of a hill behind the largest building, toward > the center of the pic. Looks like several roads lead up to it. This is the "air traffic control" building I mentioned in my description. I named it that because it seems to have a commanding view of the airstrips and the lakebed area. > There's something in the very center of the ground depression you > describe. The depression looks too symmetrical to be a mining > operation, but too large to be a giant comms-link built into the > ground. Well this is the Nevada Test Site after all. Its possible it could be a blast crater from some previous underground test. I've heard that there was an unannounced test in April of 1987 that is somehow connected with the base at Groom. -- Rich - -- Between stimulus and response is the will to choose. ------------------------------------------------------------------ IRC: _Rich_ Rich Thomson Internet: rthomson@dsd.es.com Fractal Freak ------------------------------ From: Bruce Henderson Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 11:43:56 -0800 Subject: Re: NBC News - CIA Photos Put me in for $100.00... maybe we should have someone be the "purchaser" who holds the $$ until we get enough? bruce ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 14:56:49 EST Subject: Skunk-works book I just got off the phone with a gentleman at Aerofax. He said the book "Lockheed's Skunk Works, The First Fifty Years" will be mailed out either Thursday or Friday. - -- ------==========**********==========------ Douglas J. Tiffany u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings 1202 Industrial Drive Van Wert, Ohio 45891 (419)238-9533 Fax: (419)238-2267 "Even a fish stays out of trouble when he keeps his mouth shut!" ------------------------------ From: Bruce Henderson Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 11:43:56 -0800 Subject: Re: NBC News - CIA Photos Put me in for $100.00... maybe we should have someone be the "purchaser" who holds the $$ until we get enough? bruce ------------------------------ From: Michael Matthew Guslick Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 22:41:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: NBC News - CIA Photows Well, it seems as though there are a number of people out there who are more than willing to donate to the cause of getting a copy of the Russian sat picture of Groom. I myself will be willing to put in $20. Before even more people start pledging money, does anyone know how/where/who to contact about purchasing Russian satellite photos? Also, if everyone is serious about chipping in to buy these photos, would someone be willing to step forward to be the bookkeeper of this effort? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Guslick / ^ \ USnail: 711 Hwy. C NAR #53962 ---(.)==<-.->==(.)--- Grafton, WI 53024 michaelg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu SR-71 Blackbird ph.: (414) 377-4428 IRC: HaveBlue TIP #112 LIBERATE GROOM LAKE - SUPPORT THE SOC - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Dave Cox Date: 16 Nov 93 18:02:32 Subject: Re: NBC News - CIA Photos >Put me in for $100.00... > > >maybe we should have someone be the "purchaser" who holds the $$ until we get >enough? > >bruce Sure, I can do $100.00. At least someone should keep track of the 'pledges'. When the required amount is reached, a go is issued, everybody sends in, and the order is made. - --dave ===================================================================== Dave Cox inet: cox@quandsn.com Tel:(619)481-4400 Fax:(619)481-7410 Quantum Design, 11578-30 Sorrento Valley Road, San Diego, CA, 92121 ------------------------------ From: tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 01:11:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: NBC News - CIA Photos > > Put me in for $100.00... > > > maybe we should have someone be the "purchaser" who holds the $$ until we get > enough? > > bruce > I think a better idea would be to not send anyone any $$ until enough people commit themselves to putting in the amount necessary to purchase the image(s. Even before that is done, do we know that once you purchase the image, we could do whatever we want with it, or would we still be obligated to any SPOT licensing/contractual agreements? - -- Tim Tyler Internet: tim@ais.org MCI Mail: 442-5735 GEnie: T.Tyler5 P.O. Box 443 C$erve: 72571,1005 DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil Ypsilanti MI AOL: Hooligan Packet Radio: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA 48197 "If I weren't a vegetarian, I'd eat PC people for lunch." ------------------------------ From: Rick Pavek Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 22:56:34 -0800 Subject: Before we get too carried away... I'll check to see what is actually available from Goodall. All that money for one photo is a tad high, when you might be able to spend that and get your own large sized photo from the Defense fund... Can you say 3 x 16x20 prints? They look ok, I've seen them. Rick SR-75/XR-7 _|_*O*_|_ | Rick Pavek \ __|__ / | HA!! kuryakin@halcyon.com \_______/_(O)_\_______/ | Ruby - \___/---\___/ | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #65 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@ecn.purdue.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from harbor.ecn.purdue.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).