From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #70 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Monday, 22 November 1993 Volume 04 : Number 070 In this issue: Nevada Nuclear Test Site - trip report military places I'd like to visit Re: military places I'd like to visit Login Re: military places I'd like to visit Re: Raven Rock (ANMCC) Re: military places I'd like to visit latest info from Aerofax on their new book! See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Sun, 21 Nov 93 01:43:01 PST Subject: Nevada Nuclear Test Site - trip report While skunk-works-digest may not be completely appropriate for this trip report, here's a summary of what Bruce Henderson (bruce@pages.com) and I saw on a tour of the Nevada Nuclear Test Site on Nov. 18th. About 20 people met at the Department of Energy (DOE) Las Vegas, a pretty non-descript building near I-15 and Spring Mountain Road. We met our guides, a couple of veteran Cold Warriors. After about a 65 mile (104 km) trip on US Highway 95, we turned into the gate and were given ID badges with radiation sensors (oddly enough, made by Panasonic). After being inspected by Wackenhut security personnel, we stopped in the "company town" of Mercury. As we went past Wackenhut's security headquarters, we noticed a large number of unmarked security vehicles (with red and blue lights on top only). In addition to the Blazers and pickup trucks others have reported up at Groom Lake, we also saw dune buggies and armored vehicles with gun mounts on the roof. Best sign - over Guard Station 200, there is a sign that says "Welcome to the Nevada Test Site, an environmental research park." After picking up water and hard hats, we left Mercury for Frenchman Flat, where air burst nuclear tests were done in the 50s. We saw a number of blast damaged structures including domes of 6 inch (15 cm.) thick reinforced concrete that were crushed like an eggshell. We also got to see the remains of Motel Row, whose walls had been blasted out. Oddly enough there was ancient graffiti on one wall stating "Bob sucks". After we left Frenchman Flat, we were given a tour of the nearby low-level nuclear waste facility in Area 5. The tour was given by a woman named Cindy who appeared to have drunk far too much coffee and was hyperactive. We got to see the DOE people burying drums and boxes of nuclear waste in a big trench. (If the Test Site property is ever returned to the Washoe tribe of Native Americans, they will get a big surprise if they start looking for ancestral burial grounds...) Next, we visited CP-1, the command post for nuclear testing. It sits on a hill overlooking Frenchman Flat, and Yucca Flat (where underground tests are performed). CP-1 is sort of like NASA's Mission Control, with large screen video and computer monitors. We were shown a couple of films about testing, with the highlight being the ground collapsing into a concave depression as the molten earth far below cooled. One of Bruce's friends tried to talk a guy from DOE into letting us be present at the next test... They also had a large map of the Test Site on one wall, showing some of the surrounding land (more on this later). We headed north into Yucca Flat and saw numerous craters created by underground nuclear testing. The bus driver drove the DOE bus down into Bilby Crater. We headed north and stopped at Sedan Crater, a huge crater where the idea of using nuclear weapons for peaceful construction purposes was tested. The crater was about 100 feet (31 meters) deep. Some people had rolled tires down the crater to see how far up the opposite wall they would go. After seeing the map in CP-1 that showed Groom Lake, I realized that we were about 15 miles from Groom Lake. I joked around with one of the old DOE guys and asked when the tour would be allowed to go past Guard Station 700 on Mercury Highway and up to Groom Lake. He said that even he was not allowed up there (this was a senior official who had been in charge of numerous nuclear tests). Unfortunately, we couldn't get any of the T-shirts he told us about that have a picture of a nuclear blast on them with the logo, "Made in America, Tested in Japan"... We then went up towards Rainier Mesa and P-Tunnel. P-Tunnel is a series of long tunnels drilled in the side of a mountain, where nuclear weapons effects are tested. After putting on hard hats and mine rescue equipment, we boarded a mine train into the tunnels. A very impressive piece of civil engineering!! We saw the large pipes where small yield weapons are detonated, so that a blast of radiation travels up the pipe towards the electronic equipment or satellite that is being tested. Immediately after the blast, explosive devices seal the pipe so radioactive gases and debris are contained. (Several techniques are used such as pinching the pipe (imagine pinching a soda straw, but on a large scale) and having doors closed by explosives block off the pipe. We were lucky that the Defense Nuclear Agency allowed us to visit their part of the Test Site. (Apparently, P-Tunnel is not part of the normal tour). After that, we headed back to Mercury, turned our badges in, and went back to Las Vegas. Several observations about the Test Site -- it is large (approximately 1350 square miles (3456 square kilometers) -- larger than the state of Rhode Island). The terrain is typical Mojave desert / Death Valley terrain -- a series of flat valleys surrounded by mountains. If you plan on taking the tour, you should call Brenda at DOE External Affairs (702) 295-0494 soon, because they may not do tours much longer. This is because the Test Site is starting to close down, particularly because of the current moratorium on nuclear testing. "Nuclear weapons are cool! Hunh! Hunh!" (bruce@pages.com doing his Beavis & Butthead impression) Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Sun, 21 Nov 93 14:40:56 PST Subject: military places I'd like to visit Now that I've been to the Nevada Test Site and seen (in detail) how and where nuclear weapons were tested, here's a list of 10 very restricted places in the United States I'd like to visit. Who knows... with the end of the Cold War, we might be allowed to visit these places... [note to foreign readers: abbreviations such as NV (Nevada) or MD (Maryland) are postal abbreviations for the state where the facility is located] 1. Groom Lake, NV - very secret Air Force test facility in central Nevada. Numerous "black" aircraft such as the F-117A Stealth fighter and U-2 have been tested here. A few years ago, the runway was extended to 30000 feet (9230 meters). It would be interesting to see the aircraft that requires a runway this long... 2. Raven Rock Mountain, MD - alternate Pentagon, in case of nuclear war. Tunnelled into the side of a mountain. 3. Sugar Grove, WV - operated by the Naval Security Group, this is an electronic eavesdropping facility that is used to monitor communications over U.S. COMSAT satellites. 4. Buckley Air National Guard Base, CO - while this is nominally a National Guard base, in actual fact, it is used by the National Security Agency to handle electronic signal intercepts relayed by low orbit SIGINT satellites such as Jumpseat. 5. Vandenberg Shuttle Launch Facility, CA - recent news reports have indicated that the Air Force started a program in the early 1980s to have their own Space Shuttle launch facility, independent of the one at Cape Kennedy. 50 astronauts were trained and based in Los Angeles. Eventually, the facility was "mothballed" because the Air Force decided that Titan 4 missiles were a better launch platform. 6. Camp Peary, VA - also known as "The Farm", this is a CIA training camp for paramilitary operations. 7. Goldstone complex, CA - officially, this is a civilian NASA facility. If this is true, how come it is very difficult to enter and has its own guarded airstrip, separate from nearby air fields such as at China Lake NAS? Photos of the area indicate an impressive "antenna farm", far more than would be needed for merely tracking manned space flights. 8. Fort Belvoir, VA -- home to many strange activities including the Air Force HUMINT people (i.e. Air Force Intelligence agents). Radio enthusiasts using HF direction finding equipment have identified this place as the source of the English language "numbers" broadcasts. Until the end of the Cold War, various shortwave frequencies were used to broadcast a woman reading lists of 5 digit numbers. Similar operations in German and Spanish were traced to East Germany, and Havana, Cuba. The Army claims the place is used to train the Signal Corps, while the State Department has admitted that the place is used for sensitive diplomatic communications. 9. Vault in the Capitol building, Washington, DC - I have seen Congressional testimony indicating that very sensitive military matters are discussed in a vault at the top of the Capitol building. 10. Room 4C1052, the Pentagon, Washington, DC - operations center for the National Reconnaissance Office, the U.S. agency responsible for spy satellites such as the KH-11. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Chui Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1993 20:46:10 -0500 Subject: Re: military places I'd like to visit wrote: >5. Vandenberg Shuttle Launch Facility, CA - recent news reports have indicated >that the Air Force started a program in the early 1980s to have their own >Space Shuttle launch facility, independent of the one at Cape Kennedy. 50 >astronauts were trained and based in Los Angeles. I don't think it was any secret that the Air Force intended Vandenberg to be used as a shuttle launch facility. They wanted their own launch site for security reasons, and to provide a geographically superior launch location for polar orbit (compared to the Cape). Anyone know how much money we have invested in shuttle facilities at Vandenberg? Michael Chui mchui@cs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: ac392@leo.nmc.edu (Tom Koper) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 93 20:51:49 -0500 Subject: Login I tried to login using "anonymous" and my e-mail address. I can't get it to work. Any suggestions? I also would like more information on the skunks works digest etc. Thank you. ------------------------------ From: tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1993 22:07:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: military places I'd like to visit > > [note to foreign readers: abbreviations such as NV (Nevada) or MD (Maryland) > are postal abbreviations for the state where the facility is located] > > 2. Raven Rock Mountain, MD - alternate Pentagon, in case of nuclear war. > Tunnelled into the side of a mountain. While the ANMCC would be neat to visit, these days it isn't any more senstive than the NMCC. "Site-R" is a secure place to manage conventional strategic warfare campaigns, but it wasn't designed to take a direct hit. Since it's location is well known, it wouldn't be much good in an all-out nuclear war. The place has basically stood-down. Funnjiest thing about this big, 'secret' place is the sign right off the highway that reads "Site-R Wastewater Treatment Plant" with an arrow pointing down a small dirt road. The neat places to see would be the ones that are still black. > 8. Fort Belvoir, VA -- home to many strange activities including the Air > Force HUMINT people (i.e. Air Force Intelligence agents). Radio enthusiasts > using HF direction finding equipment have identified this place as the > source of the English language "numbers" broadcasts. Until the end of > the Cold War, various shortwave frequencies were used to broadcast a > woman reading lists of 5 digit numbers. Similar operations in German > and Spanish were traced to East Germany, and Havana, Cuba. The Army claims > the place is used to train the Signal Corps, while the State Department > has admitted that the place is used for sensitive diplomatic communications. > Umm, NO! You're confusing Belvoir with two of the Warrenton Training Center Stations (C & D). The AF Intel Activity is at Belvoir. Belvoir is basically an open post -- anyone can drive around on the base. The exception is the R&D Center, which is fenced in, but still really no big deal. Some of the mock-ups at the camouflage center are pretty neat, as is the old nuclear facility. The USAF facility is sequestered in a remote area of the R&D Center, separetely fenced-in, & with their own security force. D-CEETA (at Belvoir) would also be neat to see, although it (and Buckley ANGB, by the way) mainly just handles the controlling of the satellite assets. Deep analysis & management would be done at places like the NPIC in DC. > 9. Vault in the Capitol building, Washington, DC - I have seen Congressional > testimony indicating that very sensitive military matters are discussed > in a vault at the top of the Capitol building. Hah! You think Congress is given access to "very sensitive" military information??! > Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com - -- Tim Tyler Internet: tim@ais.org MCI Mail: 442-5735 GEnie: T.Tyler5 P.O. Box 443 C$erve: 72571,1005 Ypsilanti MI AOL: Hooligan Packet Radio: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA 48197 "If I weren't a vegetarian, I'd eat PC people for lunch." ------------------------------ From: tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 00:26:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Raven Rock (ANMCC) > > 2. Raven Rock Mountain, MD - alternate Pentagon, in case of nuclear war. I forgot to mention that Raven Rock is actually in Franklin County, Pennsylvania, just a mile or two across the Maryland/Pennsylvania border. - -- Tim Tyler Internet: tim@ais.org MCI Mail: 442-5735 GEnie: T.Tyler5 P.O. Box 443 C$erve: 72571,1005 DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil Ypsilanti MI AOL: Hooligan Packet Radio: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA 48197 "If I weren't a vegetarian, I'd eat PC people for lunch." ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1993 22:01:32 -0800 Subject: Re: military places I'd like to visit TRADER@cup.portal.com says... >Now that I've been to the Nevada Test Site and seen (in detail) how and >where nuclear weapons were tested, here's a list of 10 very restricted >places in the United States I'd like to visit. >1. Groom Lake, NV - very secret Air Force test facility in central Nevada. Yea, wouldn't we ALL! :-) >5. Vandenberg Shuttle Launch Facility, CA SLC-6... been there. > recent news reports have indicated that the Air Force started > a program in the early 1980s to have their own Space Shuttle > launch facility "recent" reports? That is pretty old news. The *payloads* they intended to launch from there certainly were secret, but the construction of the site itself wasn't. I was able to visit SLC-6 a of couple years ago. >50 astronauts were trained and based in Los Angeles. Hmmm... that sounds a little strange to me. >Eventually, the facility was "mothballed" because the Air Force >decided that Titan 4 missiles were a better launch platform. They canceled the project after the Challenger accident. >7. Goldstone complex, CA - officially, this is a civilian NASA facility. Yes, it is. Goldstone is one of the three hubs of the Deep Space Network. Its operated by NASA/JPL for communication and tracking of a long list of spacecraft, such as the Voyagers, Galileo, Magellan, etc. etc. >If this is true, how come it is very difficult to enter Difficult how? Just about ANY important government facility is going to have some security. A place like Goldstone has a LOT of important and delicate equipment around. >and has its own guarded airstrip, Well, I don't know anything about the airstrip, but it would certainly make sense for the people who have to regularly commute there from JPL in Pasadena. >separate from nearby air fields such as at China Lake NAS? The whole facility is considerably "seperate" from China Lake. >Photos of the area indicate an impressive "antenna farm", I should hope so! :-) >far more than would be needed for merely tracking manned space flights. That is because they are not normally in the "manned space" business. The DSN is responsible for tracking *all* interplanetary spacecraft. Naturally that takes a pretty big "antenna farm". The largest dish is over 200 feet I believe, and they have several others around the 100 ft range. Michael Chui says... >I don't think it was any secret that the Air Force intended >Vandenberg to be used as a shuttle launch facility. Right, not a secret at all. It was much to big a project. >They wanted their own launch site for security reasons, >and to provide a geographically superior launch location >for polar orbit (compared to the Cape). The #1 reason is because they don't do polar launches from the Cape. All such flights are done out of Vandenberg, since it is the only US site with an unobstructed "window" (south) into polar orbit. >Anyone know how much money we have invested in shuttle facilities >at Vandenberg? A LOT! :-) - -dean ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (Albert Dobyns) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 93 19:11:00 -0500 Subject: latest info from Aerofax on their new book! Latest news from AEROFAX, Inc.'s Nov/Dec 93 Newsletter related to Aerofax's massive effort to produce their book: Lockheed's Skunk Works: the First 50 Years. I'll just post the highlights or as I'm sure Jay would refer to them: the lowlights! "LOCKHEED'S SKUNK WORKS: THE FIRST FIFTY YEARS is finally on the presses after several weeks of totally unnecessary delay. The latter was the result of Air Force security bureaucrats who were-and still are-out of touch with the real world. The hang-up, if you can believe it, was over the list of U-2 serial numbers we ran in the appendix. Keep in mind these were officially declassified by the Air Force during 1977...and we have official letters in our files from the Secretary of the Air Force to prove it. Now, over 15 years after the fact, the Air Force is telling us those serial numbers-which have been printed in at least 20 aviation books and untold numbers of aviation magazines-are classified and we can't print them! That's amazing news for the PANDORA'S BOX aficionados... We took the Air Force security people to task on this and over a period that ended up being nearly four weeks, we not only won the battle, but apparantly the war, after submitting numerous examples proving our point that U-2 serial numbers were in the public domain... and they HAD BEEN IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN long enough to become a TRIVIAL PURSUITS question, they conceded we could go ahead with publication of the book. So, here we are just a few week's away from delivery. The book contains over 500 photographs, nearly 100 drawings, over 175,000 words of text, and eight pages of color. Most of the imagery has never previously be released for publication. For those of you interested in the SKUNK WORKS, this book will come as a major revalation." I had heard from Aerofax that there was some hangup with the Air Force, but I thought it had something to do with wording. Perhaps they didn't want to be too specific during our conversation. Anyway I'm anxiously awaiting Jay's new book. What will I do with Steve Pace's Skunk Works book? Probably continue to let it collect dust as it sits on a shelf by itself. :) PS: Aerofax, Inc. has a new address but their telephone numbers have not changed. They are now located at 2205 West Division Street, Suite A6, Arlington TX 76012. - ---- MidWest BBS - 708-513-1034 -ILINK Charter Member, UsMail Regional Hub, Usenet ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #70 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". 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