From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #81 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 4 December 1993 Volume 04 : Number 081 In this issue: Air Ships Re: Airships New England Area Meeting of Interest Re: You're right. I'm sorry... New England Area Meeting of Interest re: Airships, balloons... new agency acronyms Re: You're right. I'm sorry... Re: Skunk Works Digest V4 #80 Re: OTH See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: I am the NRA Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 06:05:42 PST Subject: Air Ships The history of the militray use of airships did not end with the destruiction of the Hindenburg. The NAZI government used the GZII on a "ferret" flight around Great Britain, before WWII (which failed, for looking at the wrong frequencies and/or the intercept op not realizing (not admitting?) his receiver was not working.) During the war the US NAvy ran an extensive fleet of (ooooops. fergot the editor...) blimps, of increasing sizes, for antisub & rescue work, ranging, in time as far as Brazil, and bases in the Med (and, maybe, India....). They were armed with depth charges and, to this day, no ship escorted by a blimp was sunk (or even attacked?) by submarines. Postwar, development continued. Close to the end ZP2N-1w ships deployed two radars, one in an external radome, one _in_ the bag. The nomenclature on these was later changed to ZPG-2W. These were part of the Atlantic defenses agains "sneak attack" by bomber. They had an endurance measured in days, and resaonable all weather capability. Before the advent or aerial refueling and a/c big enough to fly a serious search radar, they filled a distinct need. There are a number of books available, which i neglected to write down titles of. A good copy of books in print, or a good sized library index should find 'em. There's at least one USN history of their ops in print. regards dwp ------------------------------ From: PHARABOD@frcpn11.in2p3.fr Date: Fri, 03 Dec 93 16:41:38 MET Subject: Re: Airships Each December issue of _Aerospace America_ is a summary of the year ("The Year in Review"); one of the articles of this review is about "Lighter-Than-Air". For example, in 1992, they speak of the Westinghouse Airships YEZ-2A (2.5 million ft^3) and Sentinel 1000 (354,000 ft^3). There are also a few things about Russia, U.K. and Germany. They don't say anything about classified or "black" airships. J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 07:50:28 PST Subject: New England Area Meeting of Interest My apologies, sort of, to those outside New England. However. Local "sections" of IEEE (and other relavant professional organizations) have such meetingsd/seminars. In general "NON MEMBERS ARE WELCOME", their emphasis...) Tracking down the local section Newsletter can be very rewarding... 8 Dec, Wed Sheraton Wayfarer, Bedford, NH, 6:00PM-7:00PM Missiles, Radars & ECM regards dwp ------------------------------ From: Christopher Zguris <0004854540@mcimail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 09:44 EST Subject: Re: You're right. I'm sorry... Rick Pavek writes (in jest): >>> We should trust the government. They know what's best for us. If it is hidden behind the veil of National Security, then it must be ok... I just don't know what came over me. I retract everything I said about the land grab. <<< I don't know if this is addressed at me, but someone elses response gives me the impression that my original message has been misinterpreted (all too easy through e-mail messages). It was a statement of fact, not my personal opinion. I've read BLANK CHECK and as someone else said, it is a depressing book in the sense of some of the massive finaicial waste and abuse covered by "national security". I DO NOT believe you have no right to know, the government believes this and I thought other readers might want to know where the "I have the right to know how my money is spent" argument with the government currently goes- Govt 1 Citizens 0. I wanted to make my position clear, if that flame was intended at me it was misdirected since I am in _agreement_ with you. Christopher Zguris CZGURIS@MCIMAIL.COM ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 07:50:28 PST Subject: New England Area Meeting of Interest My apologies, sort of, to those outside New England. However. Local "sections" of IEEE (and other relavant professional organizations) have such meetingsd/seminars. In general "NON MEMBERS ARE WELCOME", their emphasis...) Tracking down the local section Newsletter can be very rewarding... 8 Dec, Wed Sheraton Wayfarer, Bedford, NH, 6:00PM-7:00PM Missiles, Radars & ECM regards dwp ------------------------------ From: daveb@ingres.com (David Brower) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 09:47:38 -0800 Subject: re: Airships, balloons... From: I am the NRA Date: Thu, 2 Dec 93 16:26:51 PST An airship, rigid, (zeppelin, akron, macon) is just a bunch of balloons tucked in an aerodynamic cover. At lift off, the individual bags are usually modestly underfull. As the ship rises (statically, due to bouyant lift, or dynamically, due to aerodynamic lift, if motors running and ship "pitched up"), the bags "fill" as the gas expands. Typically, the bags fill around 6,000 feet. [1] This is called "pressure height" where the gas pressure inside balances tha outside. Rise above this and the bags burst, except.... The bags are always fitted with pressure safety valves to keep them from bursting. BIG VALVES. Would/is it possible to put a compressor on the valve and stuff the excess gas into a can for later re-use at lower altitude? curiously, - -dB ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 15:15:35 PST Subject: new agency acronyms I saw a Congressional report on the "National Security Act of 1992" recently and noticed 2 new spook agency acronyms. (I'm at work right now, so I don't know what parts of this bill passed). To replace the various entities that deal with reconnaissance satellite pictures, it was proposed that they be handled by: NIA - National Imagery Agency (to handle analysis of the pictures) RSA - Reconnaissance Support Activity (to handle hardware design of the satellites). Does anyone know if these agencies are in existence yet or what their future status will be?? Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com ------------------------------ From: tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 19:29:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: You're right. I'm sorry... > > Rick Pavek writes (in jest): > >>> > We should trust the government. They know what's best for us. > > If it is hidden behind the veil of National Security, then it must > be ok... I just don't know what came over me. > > I retract everything I said about the land grab. I won't waste time or bandwidth with the above, but I think Rick example(s) of gov't fraud & waste helped make MY point. He mentioned the current FBI investigation into NASA. Well Rick, I guess you must have clued the FBI in on potential wrongdoing by NASA, right? It couldn't be that 'the system' -- Congressional oversight, IGs, or separate investigative agencies such as the FBI were able to detect the fraud on their own... The system won't always stop fraud, corruption, waste, or mismanagement, but it helps stop it, for both classified & unclassified projects. Is their waste that goes on without detection? Certainly. Would a civillian aviation buff like Rick Pavek be a fraudbuster if he got his wish & 'black' projects became not only white, but also unclassified? I don't think so... He's right in that if we get rid of all black or classified programs, we won't have any fraud or waste in black or classified programs! Obviously, that's not a viable option. If this drift needs to continue, perhaps we can take it to alt.conspiracy or sci.military, instead of using skunk-works for a few of us to argue about a general policy... > <<< > > I don't know if this is addressed at me, but someone elses response gives > me the impression that my original message has been misinterpreted (all too > easy through e-mail messages). It was a statement of fact, not my personal > opinion. I've read BLANK CHECK and as someone else said, it is a depressing > book in the sense of some of the massive finaicial waste and abuse covered > by "national security". I DO NOT believe you have no right to know, the > government believes this and I thought other readers might want to know > where the "I have the right to know how my money is spent" argument with the > government currently goes- Govt 1 Citizens 0. I wanted to make my position > clear, if that flame was intended at me it was misdirected since I am in > _agreement_ with you. > > Christopher Zguris > CZGURIS@MCIMAIL.COM > - -- Tim Tyler Internet: tim@ais.org MCI Mail: 442-5735 GEnie: T.Tyler5 P.O. Box 443 C$erve: 72571,1005 DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil Ypsilanti MI AOL: Hooligan Packet Radio: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA 48197 "Celebrate diversity -- get intolerant about something!" ------------------------------ From: jgladu@bcm.tmc.edu (John Gladu) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 15:13:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V4 #80 >From: John Erling Blad >I will like to state one thing, I DO NOT THINK THIS THING EXIST! An acquaintance of mine who I consider otherwise "reliable" reported sighting something like this (large, black, slow, silent) in the White Sands area three years ago. I believe that he saw 'something' - what it was is open to speculation... bcnu - John Gladu 798-7370 .opinions expressed are mine.obviously. ------------------------------ From: John Erling Blad Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 18:21:45 +0100 Subject: Re: OTH Hi! >good enough to do 10s of meter resolution "imaging" This would be very good if it is real, somewhere In the back of my head there is the number 2000m for the australian one. Or one of them. > I remember it Battle damage: > Small arms fire creates slow leaks. The Germans used to fly home, > land and patch. Or patch on the way home. And only holes in the top, > upper surface really leak. The gas doesnt fall down thru holes in the > bottom. (ok, holes in the side leak too...). I dont think you will fire at an airship with small-calibre wepons. At least not at something at flying several 100-1000km away from you. > Common tracer fire passes right thru, usually, the inside is too fuel > rich to burn, the fabric exposed for too brief an instant. Is there any "Hindenburg" out there? I dont think helium burn. > These days, seekers would get onto it, with big holes following. It > may, despite size (it could be just polyethylene film and cheep motors) > be unmanned & expendable.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>Transmitter in Moscow (really)??? >>That was very interesting, does that mean that they use civil broadcasters? >>Should be possible. > heh. Moscow is a small town in Northern Maine. And i may have > the Tx and Rx reversed. But one end IS in Moscow. Heh heh. I know Im a fool I just played with the idea for some time. The main idea is to "record" the broadcast and use this as a pattern in an spread spectrum type of radar. The real broadcast can be picked up near the actual tx and relayed to the rx by satelite for example. The rx part must also sample and store the broadcast for later processing. An ideal rx seems to be Radio Moscov. Reason? It is one of the worlds most powerfull short-wave tx. When it comes to bi-static/multi-static/OTH-B/OTH-M/OTH-SW/../radars I found this in IDR 7/93, Russia develops OTH and anti stealth radars: The Moscow-based Academician AL Mints Radiotechnical Institute (RIAN) has developed a VHF surveilance radar to detect orbiting satelites, balistic missiles and stealth aircraft at long range. .. US$20million The coherent pulse radar has a nominal operating frequency of 140Mhz, a bandwidth of 1Mhz, an average tx out of 30kW and draws 300kW of power. The electronicaly scanned air-cooled transceiver (both tx and rx with the same array -monostatic!) o o array covers 120 in azimuth and 2-90 in elevation, providing a 2000km detection range with a 300m resolution afainst targets 2 of 1m (radar)cross-section. ...20MOPS.. Containrized system..10 days to set up..three man.. ..15 years lifetime......... Another Russian org., Niidar, is promoting its Irda HF OTH surface-wave (OTH-SW) radar as a coastal survelance aid. Irida is a relocatable bistaitic system, using separate tx and rx complxes located 500-1500 m apart, with the princ. hardw. housed in five standard containers. Two prototypes..three years of trials. The tx has a max. output pwr of 64kW, avr. pwr is 16kW o in the 7-15Mhz band, and covers 90 in az. Irida can detect surface targets at 280-300km, depending on sea-ssurface conditions and size of vessel. Minimum range is 15-20km. Also lowflying aircraft at extended ranges (approx 1000km I gess), tracking up to 100 targets (this is a computerproblem) with bearing and o range accuracies of 3-5 and 3-4km respectively. ..... The tx consist of four 4kw (average) power amps, an exciter and antenna commutation switch. The antenna is set up within 50m of the waterline. It is described as having eight "symetric vertcal vibrators" placed in two tiers parallel to a wire reflctor. (This is not so in the figure, with the aid of an less than correct figure I gess the hole thing is eight (short(sp?)(lisp?)(caddaradra))) dipoles in front of a reflector. Something like this: ------------------------ <- Reflector o o o o o o o o <- vertical dipoles ) The rx comprces 16 active loop antennas connected to 16 main and two auxiliary receivers under the control of a digital deamformer (direct digital??). The signal processors have a combined throughput of approximately 200MOPS. From an other article: Multistatic radars promise stealth detection. Last section in the article: High resolutin radar imaging of models of attack aircraft has been made at FOA to explore bistatic radar perfomance. The scientist are looking for answares to questions such as the range of multistatic radar, particularly relating to objects with low radar signatures (stealth). One conclusion reached is that bistatic radar cross section areas are normaly smaller than monostatic ones. However, bistatic radar cross-sections are not affected to the same extent by the design of the object; in other words, stealth technology cannot fool multistatic radar. One other thing, is there any who can send me the latest about the different have ? John ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #81 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". 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