From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #94 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 18 December 1993 Volume 04 : Number 094 In this issue: NDN:Skunk Works Digest V4 #92 Fast guns and projectiles Any L133 info in new Skunkworks book? Re: Any L133 info in new Skunkworks book? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SMTP2_ADMIN@CL_63SMTP_GW2.chinalake.navy.mil Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 18:56:21 PST Subject: NDN:Skunk Works Digest V4 #92 PostalUnion-QM(tm) 'Non-Delivery Notice'! Your mail through the QuickMail 'CL_63SMTP_GW2' Gateway could not be delivered! *** Unresolved To: Hal CorneliusERA Some addressees appeared valid and the message has been sent to those. ------------------------------ From: "JOE P." Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 08:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fast guns and projectiles Below is a message forwarded from the firearms group which may be of interest to some skunky kind of people. The messages quoted is in reference to a thread which involved a very fast gun which fired a test version of a scram jet designed to operate up in the 8+ Mach rangion. I am sorry but my fasTest delete key in the east struck again to remove the original message. Some archieves are supposed to come on line after Christmas break. If they do and I can find them, I will try to piece together the entire original thread. begin forwarded message *********************************************************************** *********************************************************************** ** Anybody at the University of Alabama? ** More on fast guns. These are air guns, which use a 'tulip' valve. Basically a precisely machined piece of aluminum which fails in a specific manner at tremendously high pressures. VERY exotic stuff. The place Jonathan speaks of living is the U.C. Santa Barbara married student housing. ---Begin included message--- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 93 12:02:48 -0500 From: c44jak@sboeng.dnet Subject: RE: fastest gun in the west (or east for that matter) BRAD: Even though this division of G.M. has been shut down, and most of the people associated with it are gone, the guns, ancillary equipment, and records still exist. They were donated to a university, the University of Alabama, as I recall. The one guy I knew well who worked with the stuff quit and went south with the guns. As a high school dropout, he wasn't about to turn down a tenure track position! His name is Greg Goldsmith, and I believe he lives in Huntsville. He was a very capable tech, who knew haw to "talk to" the guns and instrumentation, even if he was weak in the theory. As far as I know, even though many of the applications of the work done by Aerophysics division were highly classified, most of the actual work done with the guns was not. A lot of the specifics should be available through the university. The guns were used for several things. The obvious one was testing sizes, shapes and materials for ballistic projectiles for weapons. This was a small part of the work, as the guns worked over a range of "muzzle velocities" that was not achievable in the real world. A bullet fired at these speeds would evaporate before it left the muzzle due to air friction, even if it was made out of tungsten instead of lead. Most of the projectiles fired were made from platinum or it's alloys and they required unusual skills and techniques of the machinists. They are very difficult to work with. Platinum alloys don't melt or evaporate easily. This was a potential concern even in the evacuated "barrels" of these guns. If a projectile (usually referred to as a "model") was to be fired past the end of the barrel, the shock wave moving ahead of it in the residual hydrogen in the evacuated barrel was relied upon to shatter the plate that sealed the end of the barrel before the projectile got there. My recollection is that sound travels faster as pressure is reduced, especially in hydrogen. I forget why hydrogen was the gas of choice for residual gas in the barrel, but there were several good reasons. The gun, incidentally was very quiet. I used to live across the fence from the building where it was housed, with my bedroom window facing it and my pillow about 500 feet from the "muzzle". Although I could often hear the conversations of the operators and technicians getting ready for a late night "shoot" I usually could not hear the gun go bang when fired, unless it was one of the rare shoots where the model was to leave the muzzle. Most of these shoots were for testing armor and shielding, much of it for spacecraft that might encounter micrometeorites. Reentry module shapes were also tested. The conditions inside the barrel could be modified to simulate the upper wisps of earth's atmosphere. By the way, most of the tests did not primarily involve the projectile hitting the target or backstop. It was mainly the flight of the model itself that was of interest. All types of light and X-ray shadow cameras were used, as well as instruments that measured speed, vibration, and turbulence. I would contact the university for details, but I'll ask around and see if some of the old-timers are still around. Most of them were very proud of their work which was high quality and leading edge. They were glad to explain most of what they did. JONATHAN - ---End included message--- P.S. I REALLY like the thought of a high school drop out being in a tenured track position. Maybe this will bring more of the real world to some of those labs. (Now if I could just get into a 'c' gun lab!) P.P.S. Jonathan has said that I can pass on his e-mail address, but with the understanding that their mail is a about as reliable as a 10 year old GM car. It is a low priority item with EDS at Delco. Jonathan Kanner C44JAK%ENG2.DNET@DELCOELECT.COM Jonathan is very intrested in scram jets in any case, so feel free. Brad Tidd <9105TIDD@UCSBVM.BITNET> Computer Operations Supervisor (805)893-2995 Computer Center University of California, Santa Barbara 93106 (UCSB) "Gun control is being able to hit your target." Jeff Cooper From the hallowed halls of Edinboro University- (814) 732-2484 and direct from the terminal of, - 142 Miller Bldg. - Edinboro Univ. Joe Pyrdek pyrdek@edinboro.edu - Edinboro PA 16444 ------------------------------ From: mhobart@westlog.utah.edu (Michael Hobart) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 11:02:53 MST Subject: Any L133 info in new Skunkworks book? - ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: text X-Sun-Data-Description: text X-Sun-Data-Name: text X-Sun-Content-Lines: 12 I was wondering if the new Aerofax book had any info on the Lockheed L133 jet fighter proposal (WWII vintage). The other recent book on the Skunkworks (sorry the name escapes me and the book is at home) talked about it a little and had a picture of a model. I'd like to find out more about it. Anyone know of other info/publications about the L-133? Further photos of the model, illustrations, conceptualizations, 3-view plans, etc? Thanks, Mike Hobart - ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: default X-Sun-Data-Description: default X-Sun-Data-Name: .signature X-Sun-Content-Lines: 9 - ----------------------- Michael A. Hobart Department of Geology and Geophysics University of Utah 717 W.C. Browning Bldg. Salt Lake City, UT 84112-1183 (801) 585-5328 (801) 581-7065 fax - ----------------------- ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 10:22:12 -0800 Subject: Re: Any L133 info in new Skunkworks book? Michael Hobart writes: >I was wondering if the new Aerofax book had any info on the Lockheed L133 >jet fighter proposal (WWII vintage). Yes, there is some. There is a very close-up photo of the model taken from the right rear quarter and slightly elevated (best close-up I've seen to date). There is also some good history about the pre-jet era during early WWII. Perhaps the most significant is a reference to the actual Lockheed L-133 proposal that was sent to the AAF in 1942. "Design Features of the Lockheed L-133"; Willis Hawkins, Jr. Lockheed Aircraft Corporation; Burbank, California February 24, 1942 In my opinion, if I were you, I'd call Lockheed PA dept. and ask for a copy of this. If this doesn't produce a copy, I would look-up Mr. Hawkins. I would expect he would have a copy. If you need any help, let me know. Larry ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #94 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". 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