From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #124 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 21 January 1994 Volume 04 : Number 124 In this issue: D-21 recovery Groom lake and skunkworks Re: Groom lake and skunkworks Re: Groom lake and skunkworks Re: Great fun.. Re: Wind-up clocks in aircraft D-21 recovery info White B2s Re: Groom lake and skunkworks See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cepe@taskon.no Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 09:36:51 -0100 Subject: D-21 recovery Could someone enlighten me? How was the D-21 drone recovered? Or was it a one-shot expendable drone? Does anyone know how it was controlled? Inertial nav.? I guess this was prior to GPS. Regards, Carl P.S: A note to the discussion on the list lately. I care for things in the air. Not political issues regarding certain airstrips. I would guess there is an alt.politics list for those issues. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl P. Swensson internet: cepe@taskon.no Senior Systems Engineer Taskon AS x400: /c=no/admd=telemax/prmd=taskon/s=swensson Gaustadalleen 21 Tel: +47-22 95 86 21 N-0371 Oslo, Norway Fax: +47-22 60 44 27 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: andy cobley Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 12:39:30 GMT Subject: Groom lake and skunkworks Carl Swensson says P.S: A note to the discussion on the list lately. I care for things in the air. Not political issues regarding certain airstrips. I would guess there is an alt.politics list for those issues. Problem is I am interested in things in the air and airstrips that don't exist would anybody be prepared to set up a Groom-Lake mailing list (Perhaps to talk about other 'secret' thigs as well) andy c ------------------------------ From: cepe@taskon.no Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 15:22:30 -0100 Subject: Re: Groom lake and skunkworks Carl Swensson says P.S: A note to the discussion on the list lately. I care for things in the air. Not political issues regarding certain airstrips. I would guess there is an alt.politics list for those issues. Problem is I am interested in things in the air and airstrips that don't exist would anybody be prepared to set up a Groom-Lake mailing list (Perhaps to talk about other 'secret' thigs as well) andy c I think this would be an excellent solution. A groom-lake-list for non-existing airstrip fans and skunk-works for non-existing aircraft fans. :-) Carl ------------------------------ From: Brent L. Bates ViGYAN AAD/TAB Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 09:47:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Groom lake and skunkworks I really don't think we need two lists. One is enough. Things haven't diverged from the charter THAT much recently. This discussion may be all academic anyways. If someone doesn't volunteer to take over the list, it may just disappear completely. Brent L. Bates Phone:(804) 864-2854 M.S. 361 FAX:(804) 864-8469 NASA Langley Research Center Hampton, Virginia 23681-0001 E-mail: blbates@aero36.larc.nasa.gov or B.L.BATES@larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: PHARABOD@frcpn11.in2p3.fr Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 15:59:10 MET Subject: Re: Great fun.. >One other teory I like (this teory is mine, and noone elses (!)) is that >the whole story is a coverup (!) and the real interesting subject is the >chaseplane. What I will like to know is WHERE WAS THE PLANES THE LAST 3 >MONTHS. >John Erling Blad (Wed, 19 Jan 1994 18:52:11 +0100) Knowing a bit the Belgian military establishment, I would be very surprised if this story was a Belgian military cover-up. Here in France, many people (outside the UFO believers) think that it was a US military "black" test. This hypothesis has been strongly advocated by our biggest popularization review, Science et Vie. First they said it was the F-117 A: (1) Bernard Thouanel, "L'OVNI c'est lui !", Science et Vie, juin 1990 Then they said it was a new kind of F-117: (2) Dominique Caudron, "C'est vrai: je l'ai vu", Science et Vie, octobre 1990 Finally they said it was the TR-3 A: (3) Bernard Thouanel, "Les avions-espions qu'on prend pour des OVNI", Science et Vie, novembre 1991 L'Express, one of our three biggest political weekly magazines, made also reference to this TR-3 A hypothesis: (4)"Les OVNI du Pentagone" (="The Pentagon's UFOs"), by Christophe Agnus and Gilbert Charles, L'Express, 17 June 1993. In this article there is a short description of Skunk Works. This Belgian story is directly related to Skunk Works, at least via big French media, and therefore IMHO the skunk-works discussion group should be interested in (at least because of publicity for Skunk Works in foreign countries). William B. Scott, AW&ST Sr. National Editor, agrees that this story is very likely the product of some black program (private e-mail which I can't quote more precisely). Though he points out that there are non-US black programs, he agrees that the US are the more likely suspects. J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: Rick Lafford Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 10:14:07 EST Subject: Re: Wind-up clocks in aircraft >I was the original poster here, mostly as humor. I recall wind-up clocks >from lightplanes a few decades ago. Indeed, until the rather recent >availability of electronic oscillators of stable frequency in cockpit >conditions, a mechanical device was probably the lightest and most >reliable way to maintain accurate time, and it is also provides one more >instrument that remains working in the event of total electrical failure. -- Jay Freeman Actually, the reason aircraft often still have a wind-up clock is that all flight critical equipment has some type of backup if the electrical power goes south. There are alternate instrument power sources (other than electrical) but if your clock dies with the electricity in IFR conditions, you've lost one of the critical items in your navigation pack. Small battery powered clocks of the precision required for navigation might not have existed when the SR was built. Today, my $14 Armitron stopwatch fills the hole left by the $185 (1968) dollar '8 day' clock and $325 (1972) Tag Huer stopwatch. My backup is the $35 Casio wristwatch/stopwatch I wear everyday. Rick - ------------------------ Rick Lafford Eastman Kodak Co. lafford@clpd.kodak.com ======================== ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 09:42:57 -0800 Subject: D-21 recovery >>That drone was the D-21, which I've also seen as the GTD-21D. Dean Adams writes: >I'm pretty sure there was just the GTD-21A (M-12 launched), >and the GTD-21B, B-52 launched... Yes. Best we know as of now. When you get to crawl around a D for awhile you realize how nicely packaged it was. There probably aren't any A models left. SMOF was supposed to get 510, which was an A model. In fact, 510 was actually carried by 940 in flight (obviously 940 never launched 510 - this also tells you that a M-21 could land with the D in place)). However, SMOF also wanted a D that was complete. When 524 showed up at SMOF, people were puzzled and expected a royal screw-up somewhere, but such was not the case. It just so happened that a retired USAF officer who had trained to be a USAF LCO, to fly operational missions in the MD-21, lives near Davis Monthan. SMOF asked for his help and he went out and looked up 510. He found that 510 was missing a lot of stuff and it had been converted to a B model anyway. It was not in as good a shape as 524 was. So it was wonderful that SMOF got 524. Once upon a time MP%MPA15C@MPA15AB.mv-oc.Unisys.COM shaped the electrons to say... >>OK, I'll admit that I am completely ignorant of the M-21, the D-21 >>and the MD-21. MegaZone replies: > ... >The A-12 was a single seat recon aircraft. The M-12 was a conversion >with a second rear facing seat and equipment to carry a drone on a dorsal >pylon. The LCO in the M-12/M-21, whatever you want to call it (M-21 seems official now) faces forward. There was an optical system that was used to monitor the drone. In fact, if you look closely in the Kelly's Way video, I think you can see the hump near the LCO's cockpit where the optical system was placed. Carl writes: >Could someone enlighten me? > >How was the D-21 drone recovered? Or was it a one-shot expendable drone? >Does anyone know how it was controlled? Inertial nav.? I guess this was >prior to GPS. It had an INS+guidance computer that could be programmed, and it had an autopilot to fly it. Underneath the inlet, there is also an access panel labelled "Cmd Ant". I have a photo of that panel. So we still have some questions, that hopefully I can get answered soon. In practice. most of the D was expendable. The recovered part was the underside Q-bay hatch/tray that carried the sensitive electronics and the reconnaissance gear. Note my first statement above about how well packaged the D is. All the sensitive electronics was packaged on that tray that was recovered. I don't see why such a tray couldn't be updated with more advanced electronics at any time. The accessory power and Q-bay cooling came from a RAT (Ram Air Turbine) that taps off the main ramjet inlet duct. You can see the underside of the ramjet inlet as it runs thru the Q-bay and the RAT tap on the right side. You can follow the RAT duct to the RAT and the generator which feeds the power distribution box circuit boards and relays, which is part of the drone and not on the Q-bay hatch/tray. Because of the high speeds, the Q-bay is heavily insulated. ALL peripheral surfaces (walls, for/aft bulkheads, ramjet inlet duct), are insulated to keep heat out of the Q-bay. Also if you look at pictures of the left side of the drone, you'll notice a vent on the left side of the fuselage that isn't on the right side. This is the Q-bay heat vent. The air after coming out of the RAT + power generation systems is relatively cool, and it is used to cool the Q-bay. There are also air ducts from this area that were capped, that seem to be directable to specific pieces of equipment that may fill the volume of the Q-bay. We spent a lot of time in the Q-bay checking it out. I have a full set of color photos of it. There is also an inlet buzz sensor on the forward bulkhead of the Q-bay just behind the inlet for detecting inlet buzz onset. I assume that would allow mechanisms to un-buzz the inlet. In the Skunk Works 50th Anniv. book, Miller indicates that there was a workable method for D recovery, but that's all we know about that right now. I don't know if it was ever tested. Also, the method of destruction is not completely clear. There was a destruct charge on the aircraft. Indeed, the hatch to it is just behind the Q bay on the right underside. I have a picture of the hatch with the marking and we even opened it up. I also believe the D could have been blown up in the air via command from the M. Miller indicates the destruct charge was normally activated via barometric switch after dropping of the Q-bay hatch and electronics tray. Some D's were also flown into the ground/sea, and one flew off into the Soviet Union by accident, all by itself, when it wouldn't respond to command authority. The pieces to it were found many years later near the peak of a mountain in the Soviet Union. This last bit is a Ben Rich story that seems to be also alluded to in Miller. Gee I guess it's debrief time! Keep asking questions. Larry ------------------------------ From: steveje@videocrash.tv.tek.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 10:09:11 -0800 Subject: info info skunk-works ------------------------------ From: THOMSONAL@CPVA.SAIC.COM Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 17:15:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: White B2s I repost the appended message from sci.military as being of some skunkly interest. BTW, if no site volunteers to assume the skunkworks responsibility, I propose sci.military as the logical place for the messages that would otherwise appear here. Not ideal, but better than dissolution of the interested community. (The _real_ skunkworks.lockheed.com wouldn't host this mailing list would it? If just for the amusement of seeing how close their fans get to the truth? Nah...) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Group: sci.military Subject: B2 paint - white? From: "Allen J. Baum" , Apple Computer Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 17:22:27 GMT From "Allen J. Baum" I was flying around this week above Palmdale, and noticed an airfield SW of Edwards which had a couple of SR71s, and a couple of B2s on the runway. The B2s were painted extremely bright white. Anyone have an explanation? ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 22:23:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Groom lake and skunkworks >I think this would be an excellent solution. A groom-lake-list for non-existing airstrip fans and skunk-works for non-existing aircraft fans. :-) Well, not really... since non-existant aircraft have to take off and land from somewhere you know, and where better than a non-existant base. You can't have one without the other. :> ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #124 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". 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