From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V4 #125 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 22 January 1994 Volume 04 : Number 125 In this issue: Re: Groom lake and skunkworks The Future of Skunk Re: palmdale The Future of Skunk Re: The Future of Skunk D-21's Flight into Russia Re: address change D-21's Flight into Russia Taking over skunk-works skunk-works future Alternatives to skunk-works visual masking Re: White B2s unsubscribe Re: Alternatives to skunk-works Re: D-21's Flight into Russia Re: Alternatives to skunk-works Re: visual masking Chandler on Tuesday Message for Dean Adams See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Pavek Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 00:24:56 -0800 Subject: Re: Groom lake and skunkworks Now if those non-existant aircraft take off from non-existant runways... do they use non-existant runway lights? Gee, I'll bet they have a non-existant Commanding Officer. :) Oh. And non-existant paychecks. Ok, I'll get serious. I think the way it works now is just fine. I want to hear about Groom Lake as well. Rick SR-75/XR-7 _|_*O*_|_ | Rick Pavek \ __|__ / | HA!! kuryakin@halcyon.com \_______/_(O)_\_______/ | Ruby - \___/---\___/ | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: jason@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:35:17 Subject: The Future of Skunk Brent L. Bates wrote: : :I really don't think we need two lists. One is enough. Things :haven't diverged from the charter THAT much recently. This discussion :may be all academic anyways. If someone doesn't volunteer to take over :the list, it may just disappear completely. ...and that would be a very sad day, especially for the (presumably) minority of us living outside the USA who don't get to here what's going on over there. I agree that one list is enough - the volume isn't that huge that people who aren't interested in secret bases can't easily ignore it. Doesn't sci.military (a suggested rest home for retired skunk-works if it were to die) have a pretty large volume of traffic? Are there any other newsgroups that have a lower volume & could "match" the charter? Or what about setting up an unmoderated skunk newsgroup? Would that need *anyone* to maintain it? (Admittedly, that would still leave the problem of archives etc). ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 03:46:19 -0800 Subject: Re: palmdale THOMSONAL@CPVA.SAIC.COM says... >I repost the appended message from sci.military as being of some >skunkly interest. I already sent some replies on that... >(The _real_ skunkworks.lockheed.com wouldn't host this mailing list >would it? If just for the amusement of seeing how close their fans get >to the truth? Nah...) It would be rather cool having this list originate from "aurora.ladc.com", or some such address... but I don't think we can count on that in this lifetime at least. > From: "Allen J. Baum" , Apple Computer > I was flying around this week above Palmdale, and noticed > an airfield SW of Edwards which had a couple of SR71s, and a couple > of B2s on the runway. The B2s were painted extremely bright white. The Blackbirds of course are not exactly on the runway, but are the A-12 and SR-71 on display at Blackbird Airpark. As for B-2s being painted "white", the plausibility would have to be next to nil. The possible explanations could include anything from sun glare off real B-2s, to it simply being some white B-2 shapes painted on the flightline somewhere at Plant 42... ------------------------------ From: jason@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:35:17 Subject: The Future of Skunk Brent L. Bates wrote: : :I really don't think we need two lists. One is enough. Things :haven't diverged from the charter THAT much recently. This discussion :may be all academic anyways. If someone doesn't volunteer to take over :the list, it may just disappear completely. ...and that would be a very sad day, especially for the (presumably) minority of us living outside the USA who don't get to here what's going on over there. I agree that one list is enough - the volume isn't that huge that people who aren't interested in secret bases can't easily ignore it. Doesn't sci.military (a suggested rest home for retired skunk-works if it were to die) have a pretty large volume of traffic? Are there any other newsgroups that have a lower volume & could "match" the charter? Or what about setting up an unmoderated skunk newsgroup? Would that need *anyone* to maintain it? (Admittedly, that would still leave the problem of archives etc). ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 06:05:25 -0800 Subject: Re: The Future of Skunk >:may be all academic anyways. If someone doesn't volunteer to take over >:the list, it may just disappear completely. >...and that would be a very sad day ... Thats for sure. >Doesn't sci.military (a suggested rest home for retired skunk-works if >it were to die) Not a very practical idea, IMHO... >have a pretty large volume of traffic? somewhat. > Are there any other newsgroups that have a lower > volume & could "match" the charter? well, rec.aviation.military is pretty close. >Or what about setting up an unmoderated skunk newsgroup? I could create "alt.skunk-works" or whatever in an instant, but then the people without Usenet access would be cut off. I think we would be much better served to remain as a mailing list. >Would that need *anyone* to maintain it? no. It seems like there should be someone with a listserv who could give us a hand here. Our message traffic really isn't all that high most of the time. ------------------------------ From: (Thorongil) Paul Adams Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 08:24:34 CST Subject: D-21's Flight into Russia Larry writes: > > Miller indicates the destruct charge was normally activated via barometric > switch after dropping of the Q-bay hatch and electronics tray. Some D's were > also flown into the ground/sea, and one flew off into the Soviet Union by > accident, all by itself, when it wouldn't respond to command authority. The > pieces to it were found many years later near the peak of a mountain in the > Soviet Union. This last bit is a Ben Rich story that seems to be also alluded > to in Miller. I have heard this story mentioned before. Is it recorded anywhere, like in a book or video? If not, where did it come from - I know, I know, Ben Rich, what I mean is did he tell it at a conference or what? And while you're at it, could you retell the story? Thanks. Paul \ ___ / Paul Adams \ /___\ / paul@erc.msstate.edu ____________\___/__.__\___/____________ YF-22 \ \ / / \__/\___/\__/ ------------------------------ From: Robert Howard Devine Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 10:59:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: address change Please note the following internet address change; old: devine@cwis.unomaha.edu new: sdevine@cwis.unomaha.edu Thank You, Robert Devine ------------------------------ From: (Thorongil) Paul Adams Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 08:24:34 CST Subject: D-21's Flight into Russia Larry writes: > > Miller indicates the destruct charge was normally activated via barometric > switch after dropping of the Q-bay hatch and electronics tray. Some D's were > also flown into the ground/sea, and one flew off into the Soviet Union by > accident, all by itself, when it wouldn't respond to command authority. The > pieces to it were found many years later near the peak of a mountain in the > Soviet Union. This last bit is a Ben Rich story that seems to be also alluded > to in Miller. I have heard this story mentioned before. Is it recorded anywhere, like in a book or video? If not, where did it come from - I know, I know, Ben Rich, what I mean is did he tell it at a conference or what? And while you're at it, could you retell the story? Thanks. Paul \ ___ / Paul Adams \ /___\ / paul@erc.msstate.edu ____________\___/__.__\___/____________ YF-22 \ \ / / \__/\___/\__/ ------------------------------ From: Charles E Lawson Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 12:34:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Taking over skunk-works Folks, I'm fairly ignorant of the process involved but I might be able to administer this list if I knew what it entailed. I might be able to do it via my regular server account or on a home pc via a dial-up SLIP connection if I knew more about what I'd need to do. Can someone help me? BTW, I think the idea of having Lockheed do it is very amusing if unlikely... Chas. ((( * ))) | v /_\ / \ |/| Charles Lawson (clawson@mailer.fsu.edu) = / \ = |\| Public Radio Center = / \ = |/| 1600 Red Barber Plaza =/ \= |\| Tallahassee, FL 32310 = _ = |/| 904.487.3086 [vox] | | |\| 904.487.3293 [fax] | | Florida |/| >>Standard Disclaimer<< | | Public |\| (My employer doesn't even know what I'm *talking* about.) | | Radio ------------------------------ From: cepe@taskon.no Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 17:20:56 -0100 Subject: skunk-works future Just as a question. What is the volume of traffic of the skunk-works list? In avg. messages pr. day? No. of recipients in the list? In bytes/day? Just curious. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl P. Swensson internet: cepe@taskon.no Senior Systems Engineer Taskon AS x400: /c=no/admd=telemax/prmd=taskon/s=swensson Gaustadalleen 21 Tel: +47-22 95 86 21 N-0371 Oslo, Norway Fax: +47-22 60 44 27 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: RAGES@galileo.arc.nasa.gov Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 10:09:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alternatives to skunk-works IMHO, rec.aviation.military is a better alternative than sci.military. ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:24:16 PST Subject: visual masking John Stone /john.stone@shivasys.com writes, in part: >I was recently talking to someone who said that the govt. is working on a way >to visually mask an object(not Stealth), but so that either the view of the >object is obscured or makes it unreconizable to the eye! This could be used on >anything from troops to tanks and ships and planes. Apparently it works on the >same principal as the noise-cancelling head phone that pilots use. Have any of >you out there heard any thing about this? Yup. Heard of it. It dates to at least WWII, when ASW a/c were fitted with lights on the leading edge. The subs were spotting the a/c as a dark shape as the swooped in to attack, spotting them in time to dive. By illuminating the leading edge to match the "brightness" of the sky behind, the a/c "disppeared" vissually, untill much closer. I disrecall the name, but it was tried. Better radar & bomb sights & depth charges meant it wasn't used, much. I have heard it _said_ that at one time private vessels in the UK were not allowed to be painted white, as such paint made them _hard_ to see at night assisting smuggling (this was in the days of sail. No verification. The lighted leading edge trick _does_ work, in some cases, and the extent to which something fades out is very striking. I believe the current work originated in land based (tank, afv) work. The concept is not detail reproduction of a back drop, just recustion in the obvious shape/brightness differences. Much combat involves acquirng a target at max range (minimum visibility) any little bit helps. "visual stealth" had become irrelavant, sort of, with radar all around. with low RCS reducing the radar effectivenss, reducing other observables becomes more important. ------------------------------ From: Paul Michael Keller Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 14:49:56 +0000 Subject: Re: White B2s THOMSONAL@CPVA.SAIC.COM shaped the electrons to say: > I repost the appended message from sci.military as being of some >skunkly interest. Group: sci.military Subject: B2 paint - white? From: "Allen J. Baum" , Apple Computer Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 17:22:27 GMT From "Allen J. Baum" I was flying around this week above Palmdale, and noticed an airfield SW of Edwards which had a couple of SR71s, and a couple of B2s on the runway. The B2s were painted extremely bright white. These may be unpainted B2's. A few years ago, maybe about the time of the first flight of the B2 or soon after, Avleak published a picture of the B2 line with several incomplete B2s visible in the picture. They were all pure white, except where they were covered with some sort of portable mats for the assembly line workers to walk on. Paul Keller pkeller@engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ From: MCCONNED@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 14:10:57 -0600 (UTC -06:00) Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe mcconned@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ------------------------------ From: naa2254@dsacam.dsac.dla.mil (Tom Ohmer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 15:31:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Alternatives to skunk-works Once upon a time RAGES@galileo.arc.nasa.gov shaped the electrons to say... > >IMHO, rec.aviation.military is a better alternative than sci.military. Maybe from a signal:noise perspective. The powers that be here have SEVERELY restricted incoming traffic to a very few groups. Rec.* groups don't stand a chance. :-( Tom Ohmer, Computer Specialist, DSAC-AAA 1 614 692 8059 DLA Systems Automation Center, P.O. Box 1605, Columbus, OH 43216-5002 tohmer@dsac.dla.mil ...osu-cis!dsac!tohmer "Sorry, we're closed." -- Sam Malone ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 10:32:30 -0800 Subject: Re: D-21's Flight into Russia Dean Adams writes: >>It had an INS+guidance computer that could be programmed, and it had an >>autopilot to fly it. Underneath the inlet, there is also an access panel >>labelled "Cmd Ant". I have a photo of that panel. So we still have some >>questions, that hopefully I can get answered soon. >Hmm... "Command (destruct?) Antenna" ? Yes. That's what I was wondering, as well as what other kinds of commands they could send. I'm going to be in a position to find out additional information very soon. >What was behind the panel? I was working on stripping paint from the inlet at the time, and didn't have a chance to open up the CMD ANT panel. The inlet was real neat! For those of you who are supersonic, external compression inlet enthusiasts, unlike the M-21/A-12/SR-71, the D has an isentropic spike. There is also an inner annulus, between the spike and the outer inlet lip, that is very hard to see from regular pictures, unless you look for it, but up close it's quite visible. My suspicion is that this annulus probably catches the 2nd bounce of the shock, as well as catches the spike/centerbody boundary layer. This annulus leads to a chamber that contains the support for the spike/centerbody. The chamber exhausts out the foremost grills on each side of the D's front fuselage, just behind the inlet. The centerbody is not designed to move in and out. However, I've heard from a Marquardt person that the spike did move at one time to help split the inlet shroud apart, when they were using the shrouds to further reduce drag in the MD configuration. These shrouds didn't work because the pieces of the shrouds were injested INTO the ramjet inlet causing unsymmetrical burning and overtemps, and also pieces flew off abd damaged the drone itself (see the picture of this in the 50th Anniv Book). Examples of what the shroud injestion did to the ramjet can be seen on the D photos that show the aft skin of the D removed. These photos, reproduced in the 50th Anniv book and in Sweetman's AURORA book, show the ramjet combustor, nozzle, eductor cooling system, and thermocouples. You'll notice discoloration of the combustor and nozzle on the skin of same in the photo. I've been told that this photo, shows an example of what injestion of the shroud into the ramjet could do to the ramjet. But, the serial nos. of the drones shown with mechanical leading edge damage and ramjet damage mentioned above are different. I'm still trying to resolve this issue. >>We spent a lot of time in the Q-bay checking it out. I have a full >>set of color photos of it. >Did anyone get some VIDEO of all that? I don't know. Actually they could shoot it at any time. Just get up on the M, drop the D's Q-bay hatch, and shoot it. The blended nature of the M's fuselage however is quite a hump to get over/deal with. One has to 'launch' onesself over it (at least I do), and slide down the other side (we aren't allowd up there with shoes any more either, which means traction is bad). I always have a vision of launching myself right off the wing on the other side. That would be 6 ft. + fall. It looks worse than it probably is. It was always a bit wierd walking the chine from the wing to the cockpit as well. >>Also, the method of destruction is not completely clear. There was a >>destruct charge on the aircraft. Indeed, the hatch to it is just behind >>the Q bay on the right underside. I have a picture of the hatch with the >>marking and we even opened it up. >Anything interesting in there? I got a picture of the inside as well. I'm trying to recall. Just 'stuff' I couldn't identify. I think it was mostly a cavity with some plumbing, but I'll have to check. There was also a mission abort checklist that had as a step, disarming the destruct mechanism. That checklist may have been on that panel, or somewhere else. I'll have to look. Larry writes: >> >> Miller indicates the destruct charge was normally activated via barometric >> switch after dropping of the Q-bay hatch and electronics tray. Some D's were >> also flown into the ground/sea, and one flew off into the Soviet Union by >> accident, all by itself, when it wouldn't respond to command authority. The >> pieces to it were found many years later near the peak of a mountain in the >> Soviet Union. This last bit is a Ben Rich story that seems to be also alluded >I have heard this story mentioned before. Is it recorded anywhere, like in >a book or video? If not, where did it come from - I know, I know, Ben Rich, >what I mean is did he tell it at a conference or what? And while you're at >it, could you retell the story? Thanks. Yes. I heard it directly from Ben Rich at the M-12/M-21 party, two years ago. This is exactly what I wrote the day after the party. Ben told a neat little D-21B story, about how in 1967 they flew a D-21B mission over China. They lost command authority to the D-21B sometime in the mission, and the D-21 proceeded to fly into Russia. They didn't know where it landed! Last they saw it, it was flying into Russia by mistake. Well, years went by and in approx. 1978 or so, a government guy shows up at the Skunk Works with a piece of metal, and shows it to Ben. Ben says, "Yes, that's a piece of a D-21!". The government guys says, well the KGB presented this with greetings to the CIA and said that they have this piece of THE secret American Stealth airplane. Ben said, "well if they want to think that, let them!". He said, "of course they're wrong". "This is a piece of a D-21B that flew by mistake into Russia back in 1967". I don't know if the dates above hold up, but he did tell the above story. One has to remember that these guys haven't worked this program for a LONG time, and that sometimes details are a bit foggy. But the stories are certainly useful and fun. Larry ------------------------------ From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 15:33:12 PST Subject: Re: Alternatives to skunk-works > From skunk-works-owner@ecn.purdue.edu Fri Jan 21 13:26:38 1994 > > Once upon a time RAGES@galileo.arc.nasa.gov shaped the electrons to say... > > > >IMHO, rec.aviation.military is a better alternative than sci.military. > > Maybe from a signal:noise perspective. The powers that be here have > SEVERELY restricted incoming traffic to a very few groups. Rec.* groups > don't stand a chance. :-( > > On the topic of signal:noise ... I would suggest that a moderated news group would be better than an unmoderated one because I suspect the signal:noise ratio would become really ugly on something like alt.skunk due to the associations of secret aircraft and UFOs (Groom lake etc..). Take a look at alt.alien.visitors to see what I'm talking about. To be honest, my main interest is UFOs, and I subscribe to skunk works mainly to get information to help me decide if a UFO case is explainable in terms of black aircraft. It helps to know all the players ;^) I'm used to wading through *tons* of nonsense in the UFO field but I'd hate to see it here. Skunk works goes off topic a little bit from time to time but it is one of the most junk-free lists available. Speaking of off-topic... ;^) Ciao, Leonard. *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@mprgate.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *************-<( Dogma Kills! - Just Say "I Don't Know" )>-********** > Tom Ohmer, Computer Specialist, DSAC-AAA 1 614 692 8059 > DLA Systems Automation Center, P.O. Box 1605, Columbus, OH 43216-5002 > tohmer@dsac.dla.mil ...osu-cis!dsac!tohmer > "Sorry, we're closed." -- Sam Malone > > > ------------------------------ From: freeman@MasPar.COM (Jay R. Freeman) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 16:52:08 -0800 Subject: Re: visual masking There is an interesting biological precedent for this kind of visual masking: Open-ocean fish that live close enough to the surface for there to be noticeable light remaining, are colored in such a way that when seen from the side, each part of their profile is approximately as bright as the surrounding water. That is, the upper parts of the fish are illuminated by relatively bright light shining down from the surface, and have a low coefficient of reflection; the lower parts of the fish are illuminated by much fainter light reflected back from the depths of the sea, and have a high coefficient of reflection. This pattern is (*ahem*) seen widely, and is thus likely very effective, since it is so strongly selected for. Note that fish predators generally approach from the same depth as their prey, so the camouflage is optimized for minimum visibility in the horizontal direction. Classical aircraft camouflage is optimized for minimum visibility from above and from below. -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:10:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chandler on Tuesday The Subject line says it all. We'll be by twice in each direction. Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com ------------------------------ From: Charles E Lawson Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 23:28:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Message for Dean Adams Hi. Sorry to mail you this way but your latest message did not copy your e-mail address. Besides, this is relevant to everyone... I get free access as a university employee and they are desperately trying to promote Internet connectivity and use. This implies, perhaps, that I would have a better chance of setting up the listserv here. I'll check on it ASAP. Still no interest from Lockheed, eh? :-> Chas. ((( * ))) | /_\ |/| Charles Lawson (clawson@mailer.fsu.edu) |\| Public Radio Center |\| Tallahassee, FL |/| My opinions are not those of my employer...blah, blah, blah... |\| "The greatest productive force is human selfishness." --Robert Heinlein ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V4 #125 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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