From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #21 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 24 February 1994 Volume 05 : Number 021 In this issue: USGS's array of hydrophones Seismographic data Re: Hypersonic Waveriders Exotic Fuels and Magneto-hydro Dynamics Re: Mysterious Aircraft & UFO's Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #20 Re: Cash - Landrum Case China Lake's insidious alien underground labs, et al Re: multiple list recipients China Lake...Not! Re: multiple list recipients Re: multiple list recipients Re: Machrihanish Airfield/Baby Groom Re: [Q] hypersonic waveglider or waverider See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Erling Blad Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:19:44 +0100 Subject: USGS's array of hydrophones >Anyway, I just was curious if anyone got a more accurate time-hack on >either of the two events this morning. The USGS's array of hydrophones up >and down the coast no doubt picked up the disturbance, but I suspect >they've got a gag order on them... Are the data from that array normaly available to the public? I know there exist a number of sites with geophones but I have never tried to get data from them. This will be interessting if you have an approximate time for the arrival of a nonexisting shockwave from a nonexisting plane. John ------------------------------ From: John Erling Blad Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:50:09 +0100 Subject: Seismographic data I phoned Norsar and was told that rawdata wasn't generally available. But if they like the purpose.. and so forth. He (the guy at Norsar) also told me that rawdata from USGS arrays probably where available for the cost of producing them, but this can give a rater high price. In Great Brit. there is an equ. called International Seismographic Center. Both this is operated by goverments that can have reason to restrict access to certain information, so they will not be first choice. But he also told me that France have a world wide nett of broadband seismographic arrays, but they might also have some reason not to release the data. An interesting part was when I asked if there exist any array that can detect variations in the airpressure. He responded that "..we have detected supersonic (in the context of planes travelling at mach 1+ I belive) shockwaves but the geophones are generally not sensitve for the airpressure.." further hes stated that they have no such equipment. In all there seems to be an interesting project for someone with spare time, as an prosessing of such data can track the "epicenter of the shockwave" as it follows the plane. With some luck this might point more or less direct to an airfield. John ------------------------------ From: "Charles A. Lind" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:31:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Hypersonic Waveriders > > ------------------------------ > > From: Carl Petter Swensson > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 17:57:28 -0100 > Subject: [Q] hypersonic waveglider or waverider > > Lately there has been som mentioning of "waveglider" or "waverider" > related to hypersonics and the XB-70. I believe thay are liftgenerating > aerodynamic phenomena occuring at high speeds( >3 Mach) > > Could anyone care to explain a little what these terms mean? > Hi, A waverider is a supersonic or hypersonic vehicle which has its shock attached all along the leading edge. Since the shock is attached, the vehicle appears to be riding its own shock wave, hence the term, ``waverider.'' The advantage to using a waverider, as opposed to other supersonic or hypersonic configurations, is that the attached shock contains the high pressure generated by the shock below the vehicle surface. Since, by definition, the waverider is the only hypersonic vehicle which has its shock attached, all other hypersonic vehicles have a lower pressure on the undersurface due to pressure leaking to the upper surface. Therefore, the waverider generates more lift than other hypersonic vehicles. The waverider is generated from a known flowfield which has been made from shapes other than the waverider. If you consider a flowfield generated by a cone in supersonic flight, then any streamsurface of the conical flowfield, downstream of the conical shock, can be used as the waverider surface. Waveriders originally were generated on the basis of inviscid flowfields. By doing so, drag due only to the shock wave was considered and therefore L/D ratios were high. However, once skin friction drag was included in the analysis, L/D decreased due primarily to the large surface areas characteristic of waveriders. Recent work has included skin friction in the optimization scheme and has resulted in a new family of waveriders known as viscous-optimized hypersonic waveriders. Indeed the XB-70 may be considered a waverider since it did ride it's own shockwave. Charles - ------------------------------------------------------ Charles Lind -- lind@eng.umd.edu Hypersonics Research Group Department of Aerospace Engineering University of MD, College Park, MD 20742 - ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Paul Michael Keller Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:06:39 -0500 Subject: Exotic Fuels and Magneto-hydro Dynamics First, on the subject matter of exotic fuels, the primary reason for the speculation about Aurora being powered by a cryogenic fuel is that con- ventional jet fuels simply do not burn fast enough to be of much use much above Mach 3 or so. The conventional wisdom is that methane is good for Mach 5 or so, so a Mach 6-8 Aurora powered by liquid methane would be pushing methane pretty hard. Above Mach 8, only hydrogen will do. As to magneto-hydro dynamics (MHD), it's been long known that you can create an electromagnetic (EM) pump by applying a crossed magnetic field and DC electrical current to a conducting fluid. It's also possible to build an AC EM pump that's basically a linear induction motor. EM pumps have been around for quite some time in industrial applications, primarily in pumping liquid metals. The nuclear power industry has made use of these in pumping liquid sodium through nuclear reactors, where they have the advantage of no mechanical pump seals and no moving parts. They have the disadvantage of poor efficiency, no better than 40-50% according to my info. The application of this to a submarine using an electro- magnetic tunnel drive is fairly obvious, and was recognized sometime ago. MHD research does continue, although I believe the bulk of it is primarily directed towards fusion plasma research. As to the new discovery on drag reduction and aerospace applications, there was an article which appeared yesterday over on the newsgroup clari.tw.aerospace which stated that "The technology...involves using an electromagnetic field to calm turbulent fluid surrounding a moving vessel and thereby eliminate much of the resistance." As others have recognized, this will only work on a conducting fluid. Air is a pretty good insulator until it is exposed to a vehicle moving at near orbital velocity (orbital velocity is around Mach 25), thus the only aerospace external flow application cited in the clari article and Michael Chui's article is for re-entry vehicles. I wouldn't think a Mach 6-8 vehicle would be able make much use of the new discovery. NASP might, but there would be the usual weight vs. drag reduction tradeoff that's always present in aerospace applications. Paul Keller pkeller@engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 07:44:59 EST Subject: Re: Mysterious Aircraft & UFO's Tom from mcimail says: > Last night our FOX network station had a special on UFO's. > What really caught my eye was a segment on a mysterious > aircraft crash at Long Island,N.Y. on Nov. 24,1992. > According to the researchers, this crash was not reported > to anyone. The local and state police were replaced > immediately by men in black uniforms. The park where > the supposed crash occurred, was closed for four days and > was sealed off. None of the local fire people would admit > to being there. The UFO group kept saying it was a UFO > that crashed. I really believe that it was a Black Project > aircraft that crashed, since the activities afterward were > similiar to when the F-117's crashed years ago. My feelings exactly regarding this story. > They also had a segment on Jim Goodall, AREA 51 and > other supposed secret bases. > Anyone else see this show. It was interesting to see some people we talk about here on skun-works but I must admit that some of that stuff could easily be picked apart.......like aluminum foil burning in a pit....:) I believe in UFO's, I just don't believe they all come from outer space. Seems to me aurora is a UFO right now. Paul Mangan ------------------------------ From: clements@cs.utexas.edu (Paul C. Clements) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:33:56 -0600 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #20 In the last digest, TOM PETRISKO <0004343121@mcimail.com> writes: >Last night our FOX network station had a special on UFO's. >What really caught my eye was a segment on a mysterious >aircraft crash at Long Island,N.Y. on Nov. 24,1992. >According to the researchers, this crash was not reported >to anyone. The local and state police were replaced >immediately by men in black uniforms. The park where >the supposed crash occurred, was closed for four days and >was sealed off. None of the local fire people would admit >to being there. The UFO group kept saying it was a UFO >that crashed. I really believe that it was a Black Project >aircraft that crashed, since the activities afterward were >similiar to when the F-117's crashed years ago. I saw this, and after this segment changed channels. It does not seem reasonable to me that... (a) ...a government organization that wants to be secret would show up at a site wearing spooky looking clothes and driving unmarked military vehicles. Would YOU organize it that way? No, you'd have them outfitted looking looking as innocuous and familiar as possible. (b) ...witnesses claimed to see the craft shearing off tree tops as it blazed a trail through the forest on its way down, and yet all people could find later was one or two trees missing their upper half. (c) ...county government, fire officials, and local police could be co-opted wholesale into a massive cover-up. People talk about "Government" as if it's all one big entity, but I've gotta believe that one of the firefighters or one of the Hooterville officials would be dying to get in front of one of those cameras, wave hi to mom, and talk about "that Yew Ef Oh over yonder in the woods". (d) ...that an aircraft crash site could be sanitized in four days. What'd they do, paint over all the burn marks on the trees? Plant new ones? (e) ...that we're only now hearing about this if there was anything to it. When the F-117's crashed, we knew about it almost instantly, althought the Air Force claimed it was some other type of aircraft. I wanna believe, but not this one. pc ------------------------------ From: PHARABOD@frcpn11.in2p3.fr Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 15:27:58 MET Subject: Re: Cash - Landrum Case >The road where it happened runs through a pine forest. >The object descended in front of Betty Cash's car, right >over the road, to tree top level. It was intensely bright, >emitted a lot of heat, and it was belching intermittent >flame that ran down and touched the road (reactor coolant >leak - sodium?) from where the object was hovering near the >tops of the pine trees. It was also beeping quite loudly. >Larry (Wed, 23 Feb 1994 17:36:47 -0800) If you think of sodium cooled FBR (Fast Breeder Reactors), you are wrong. These reactors, as any present day fission reactors, are prehistoric monsters totally unsuited for aircraft propulsion. The above description fits far better an ordinary terrestrial vehicle hovering with conventional engines and conventional fuel or propellant (like VTOLs or the DC-X). I hope ETs have more refined crafts and engines... Is there any real proof of radiation damage ? There are also ordinary burns. J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: Charles Hattendorf Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:12:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: China Lake's insidious alien underground labs, et al > Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 00:26:14 EST > Subject: Machrihanish Airfield/Baby Groom > > I recently queried Great Guru Sweetman on the Machrihanish air > base. He speculates that it is a reserve base for Aurora, used > only if something goes wrong with mid-air refueling. I have the > detailed Ordinance Survey map of the area (appropriately named > "Campbeltown North"). This area may be remote by British > standards, but for a fat, noisy, gas-guzzling American aircraft, > it must be like trying to land in mid-town Manhattan. The sleepy > village of Campbeltown is only two miles from the runway, and the > area right up to the end of the runway looks packed with farms > and cottages. For Aurora to use Machrihanish only ONCE would > probably make a lasting impression on the locals, and this might > account for the reports. > > Sweetman seems inclined to think Aurora is still operating out of > Groom. This seems to me to be the last place you'd find it now, > given the current heat. So where could it be? And where have > the other fat and noisy Groom programs been moved to now that > they can't play there no more? > > Why, they've all been moved to "Baby Groom"! > > Where is Baby Groom? Ah, that's the question for you Skunkers. > Hint: It's not Machrihanish. Lots of suggestions have been put > forward for bases that are absolutely impenetrable to civilian > observers: the Aleutian Islands, some atoll in the Pacific, > South Central L.A. There is no end to the possible remote > locations in the U.S. arsenal. The only problem is, WHERE'S THE > TALENT? You can station a bunch of Marine grunts on the > Aleutians and teach them how to fill the tank and change tires, > but advanced craft must need a lot of cushy civilian engineers > who require a HOUSE IN THE SUBURBS with SHOPPING MALLS, FAST FOOD > AND A WALMART; they aren't going to hang out in the Aleutians no > matter how much you pay them. > > There are only a few places in the world with the pool of talent > to support an advanced aircraft program: Palmdale/Lancaster, Las > Vegas, Alamogordo (any others?). Our Baby Groom ought to be > within a convenient commuting distance of one of these. > > A frequent suggestion is someplace else in the Nellis Range. > TONOPAH TEST RANGE is a logical choice. There's not much heat > there right now, but the worry is justified that the Groom heat > might spill over. Countless speculations suggest there might be > yet ANOTHER secret base on the Nellis range, but if true we have > not yet detected the supply routes or how the staff comes and > goes from their suburban pads. > > WHITE SANDS and HOLLOMAN AFB have been on many people's lips > since Steve1957 shot his recent "Dorito" tape there. Rumors > abound of long runways and mysterious activities, but some > watchers are concerned that the terrain is too wide open to hide > anything REALLY secret. > > At Palmdale/Lancaster, there is EDWARDS AFB. Yeah, right, really > discreet. Hemmed in on all sides by rabid AVIATION BUFFS, you'd > be better spooking the cows at Machrihanish. But hey, what's > happening these days at CHINA LAKE? Even the name sounds > mysterious, like "Groom Lake" before those bastard Interceptors > turned it into Disneyland. When I close my eyes and think CHINA > LAKE, I see vast underground alien bases where evil GRAYS and the > insidious ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT are conducting horrible, > unspeakable biological experiments on LIVING HUMANS. Will > someone who knows the area please tell me I'm delirious. > > Psycho Psycho, You've been breathing too much of that rareified Rachel air! Or hangin' out at the Ale E inn instead of Whites Sides/Freedom ridge... Check out the map for China Lake. The town of Ridgecrest (30 K pop) has city limits that start @ a mile from the end of th runways, with flight patterns passing over populated areas (I won't say "heavily populated" as this is where I live ,yuck yuck). Jim Goodall and Testor's (and us!) could pull up our lawn chairs, sip pina coladas, and expose tons of film if aurora was flying from here....makes me kinda' miss it, perhaps we could still sell tickets. I am interested in the Rancho Palos Verdes report made earlier. The "Thursday express" flight profile of Aurora is similar to earlier reports, just at an earlier time of day. I am located somewhat between Groom and RPV near a designated supersonic corridor (off base limits) and have not encountered unusual flights at this early time of day. With the changing of sunrise becoming earlier the chance of an observer noticing a rapidly-moving contrail , etc. increases also. As a point of reference, I have noted Mary Shaffer's SR-71 flight's, but only by sound - not visually. I have a gold mine in the El Paso mtn.s just south of Inyokern, between the two bases , China Lake and Edwards. I am usually there friday and/or saturday. I have seen numerous flights of the B-2 and such, but have yet to see the SR-71 inflight. Aurora's flight characteristics would make it stand out, to say the least, but it's also true the best way to hide something is under someone's nose! We'd better check LAX. The alien underground bases are another thing altogether... I have as yet not seen the 4 ft greys or the 8ft thin dudes (the Laker's are trying to find him), but the guy (?) I share my office with has been acting a bit strange lately, cranking Captain and Tenile on his headphones (thank God for headphones). Anything is possible, and if alien technology transfer is true, I doubt our government would advertise or even announce any involvement. Such are from which the seeds of conspiracy nutured - !? Thanks much for being our "forward observer" in Rachel, I appreciate the reports, and with a network of observers we can perhaps learn more. Stay connected. Charlie ***************************************************************************** * Charlie Hattendorf "Realtime computer support - while you wait!" * * Halifax Tech Rep livin' it up 30 miles from Death Valley * * coyote@ins.infonet.net Linux, gold mining, bass fishing - in any order * ------------------------------ From: Christopher Zguris <0004854540@mcimail.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 10:09 EST Subject: Re: multiple list recipients On Wed, 23 Feb 94 15:32:04 -0800 Bruce Henderson wrote: >It is alot more likely that woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time and >saw something that was not where it was supposed to be. > >In particular it is alot more likely that someone was testing some sort of >nuclear rocket or jet, and that it strayed off course. It could account for >the radiation burns as well as the bright light. This could also explain why >no one wants to investigate. As we have wittenseed recently, the government >tends to test nulcear experiments without alot of warning. And news of test of >a "flying chernobyl" would make alot of people really cranky. What was the >date of this incident? Any chance this is connected with TimberWind? There was an article in AIR & SPACE/Smithsonian a long while ago about a nuclear rocket. I don't remember a lot of details except that they supposedly scrapped the thing becuase it was such a radioactive monster. The reactor on the rocket would spew _very_ high level radioactivity in flight. The obvious problem was the rocket was cover anything in its flight path with massive amounts of radiation, so the designers weren't sure where to fly the thing (it was also thought of as a benefit since it could release this radioactive poison on the "enemy" as it was flying towards its target). The article - if I remember correctly - said the designers got as far as testing the motor, but never made a flying prototype. Everything used in this research was rendered highly radioactive (probably still is!), overall it was a very messy project. I can't imagine why anyone would want to try that again with a new "flying chernobyl", this would not be you're typical black-program stealth bomber or fighter- if the public became aware of it they would go ape. remember all the hoopla (sp?) about the nuclear power plant on the satellite NASA launched a while ago, people were afraid of what might happen if that satellite launch vehicle developed problems and that nuclear power plant came apart over any populated areas. Very scary. BTW- What is/was TimberWind? Christopher Zguris CZGURIS@MCIMAIL.COM ------------------------------ From: tmahood@netcom.com (Tom Mahood) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:17:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: China Lake...Not! In light of the speculation on Aurora's possibly hanging out at China Lake, I thought I'd offer my thoughts having spent considerable time in the deserts near there: 1. The available area to hide something there is not very great. Almost the entire southern half is relatively flat and can be easily observed from a number of vantage points. Groom is a lot tougher. The northern half is pretty mountainous with not much room available to stash a long runway. 2. The facility does have a fair amount of habitation surrounding it, with the town of Ridgecrest at the south end being pretty good sized for a desert town. Compared to Area 51, this is downtown. Not as secluded as one would think. 3. The area along the west edge is a major north-south general aviation route as it's the only "hole" the the quilt of restricted areas. This means lots of eyes around with very good views. 4. Logical takeoff patterns would be to the north, right into the ugly weather often occuring (i.e. Sierra Wave) in the lee of the Sierra Nevada mountains. Not a fun place to fly. 5. It's been my experience that security along the perimeter is next to non-existent, at least by Groom standards. This could have changed, of course, but no white Cherokees have been spotted yet. In conclusion, I think it would be GREAT to have Aurora at China Lake. It would be much easier to see, and at least for me, much closer to home. You guys in Nevada have had all the fun to yourselves for far too long. Besides, you still have the saucers!!! ------------------------------ From: Paul Michael Keller Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:07:10 -0500 Subject: Re: multiple list recipients Christopher Zguris shaped the electrons to say: >On Wed, 23 Feb 94 15:32:04 -0800 Bruce Henderson wrote: >>What was the >>date of this incident? Any chance this is connected with TimberWind? Not likely. Sorry, I'm not a UFO fan. > There was an article in AIR & SPACE/Smithsonian a long while ago about a >nuclear rocket. Do you have an approximate date for this? I'd be interested in finding this in a library. >I don't remember a lot of details except that they >supposedly scrapped the thing becuase it was such a radioactive monster. The >reactor on the rocket would spew _very_ high level radioactivity in flight. >The obvious problem was the rocket was cover anything in its flight path >with massive amounts of radiation, so the designers weren't sure where to >fly the thing (it was also thought of as a benefit since it could release >this radioactive poison on the "enemy" as it was flying towards its target). >The article - if I remember correctly - said the designers got as far as >testing the motor, but never made a flying prototype. You are probably confusing what I believe was once called Project Pluto with nuclear rocket technology. Supposedly, Project Pluto was a U. S. project to design a unmanned nuclear powered aircraft to be used for nuclear bombing. Once it was out of bombs, it would crash itself into its last target to add to the carnage. No one could figure out how to safely test it, and, in any case, the B-52 came along to give USAF the long-duration bomber they were looking for, so, fortunately, saner heads prevailed and Projet Pluto was cancelled. The nuclear rocket tests of the 1960s and early 70s were generally fairly clean, although they didn't meet the environmental standards that apply today, in that the rocket exhaust was simply discharged to the atmosphere. They used hydrogen as reaction mass, and hydrogen doesn't activate much (if at all) on exposure to the neutron flux of a nuclear reactor. I believe they did have an incident in which a reactor core came apart, puking its guts out the rocket nozzle, obviously making quite a mess, but that's why those things would now have to be tested in environmentally controlled chambers. The U. S. nuclear rocket program got cancelled in the early 70s for lack of a mission when it became apparent that we weren't going to soon follow the manned lunar missions with manned trips to Mars. >remember all the hoopla (sp?) about the nuclear power >plant on the satellite NASA launched a while ago, people were afraid of what >might happen if that satellite launch vehicle developed problems and that >nuclear power plant came apart over any populated areas. Very scary. The radioisotope thermal generators (RTGs) used for the recent Galileo and Ulysses(sp?) probes are designed to withstand any credible launch accident without releasing radioactivity to the environment. I believe they have all the references to the safety analysis reports in the Sci.space FAQ. >BTW- What is/was TimberWind? Timberwind was a late-80s-early 90s SDIO project to develop a solid-cored nuclear rocket engine. The news about it broke when it came out that SDIO wanted to test it by flying it in the atmosphere. I haven't seen anything about it in the last two years or so in AvLeak, so I'm not certain of whether it's still a going project, which doesn't seem likely, or whether it's been cancelled. Paul Keller pkeller@engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ From: "Philip R. Moyer" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:16:35 EST Subject: Re: multiple list recipients > There was an article in AIR & SPACE/Smithsonian a long while ago about a It was named Pluto. I have transcribed the entire article, and it was posted to the Skunk-Works list, but I don't have it on-line any longer. I'll try to dig it up after my move.... Philip R. Moyer Bits: moyer@arca.ca.com Security Engineer Voice: 408-434-6633 Arca Systems, Inc. Fax: 408-434-0262 ------------------------------ From: Michael Matthew Guslick Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:53:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Machrihanish Airfield/Baby Groom Our eyes and ears in Rachel, NV (psychospy@aol.com) wrote: >Why, they've all been moved to "Baby Groom"! >Where is Baby Groom? Ah, that's the question for you Skunkers. <> How about Papoose Lake? Isn't that where the UFOs were supposedly based & tested? With all the heat on Groom, they may have moved the UFOs (if they exist) out of Papoose to a most unthinkable place, leaving the range free for the higher-security projects at Groom. Since there's a nice big mountain in the way of the range, we can't tell what the heck is being done there. Anybody know if satelite photos are available of Papoose? (For those of you wondering where Papoose is, it's essentialy just a hop, skip, & jump away from Groom. Psycho can give everyone the details, if he wishes.) >WHITE SANDS and HOLLOMAN AFB have been on many people's lips >since Steve1957 shot his recent "Dorito" tape there. Rumors >abound of long runways and mysterious activities, but some >watchers are concerned that the terrain is too wide open to hide >anything REALLY secret. What is the "Dorito" tape? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Guslick / ^ \ USnail: 711 Hwy. C NAR #53962 ---(.)==<-.->==(.)--- Grafton, WI 53024 michaelg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu SR-71 Blackbird ph.: (414) 377-4428 IRC: HaveBlue TIP #112 "Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Mark Grant Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 18:16:22 GMT Subject: Re: [Q] hypersonic waveglider or waverider - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- cepe@taskon.no said : > Lately there has been som mentioning of "waveglider" or "waverider" > related to hypersonics and the XB-70. I believe thay are liftgenerating > aerodynamic phenomena occuring at high speeds( >3 Mach) > > Could anyone care to explain a little what these terms mean? Well, I haven't heard them mentioned for a while.... From memory, a waverider is basically a hypersonic glider, typically a delta-winged 'flying-wing' design with fairly thick wings angled down at about thirty degrees. I used to know some people from an organisation called 'ASTRA' in Scotland who were playing around with Waverider designs, and they claimed that once it got up to hypersonic speeds it had the highest lift-to-drag ratio of any known wing design, and could fly unpowered at those speeds for as long as you could maintain attitude control (I think they were intended to fly at a fairly high angle of attack), and when it dropped below the speed of sound it would fly 'like a paper dart' (I presume they didn't mean spinning and weaving all across the room 8-)), with a low stalling speed. Apparently the British government funded some research into them in the 1960s for use as a hypersonic transport (including launching models on sounding rockets for hypersonic tests), but discovered that it was very difficult to fit engines since anything attached in the cavity on the underside tended to disrupt the airflow. It was thought that it might be possible to simply dump fuel out of the underside into the airflow where it would ignite, but the most realistic launch method appeared to be a rocket-powered flyback booster, which would have raised the price well above what the government were willing to pay. The ASTRA people were primarily interested in using it as a reentry vehicle, as it appears that the only thermal protection required would be something like the shuttle's reinforced carbon tiles on the leading edges of the wings, and in addition it could land practically anywhere on the planet from low orbit. The last I remember hearing they'd done some low-speed tests with models on the roof of a car (they weren't exactly a high-powered, well-funded organisation) and in a university wind tunnel, were attempting to scrounge some time in a hypersonic wind tunnel, and had had some interest from individuals at NASA for some kind of weird course-change maneuver, flying a waverider probe through the atmosphere of venus at 20 km/s (?) in order to deflect its trajectory through about sixty degrees. I don't think anything ever came of the latter. If they could solve the launch problem, it could well be useful technology for a hypersonic spy-plane. I'll see if I can hunt down any more interesting information when I get home tonight. Mark - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a iQCVAgUBLWzu72hZrcRdG1w1AQEFwAP9F7mxfANCtfmeDmiTvshva2TSmQCJBL76 B0HwVX1iLkEYFeWobuWfTVykCumaXZQhP82qiJbEkpMKoAHv0qjlxdORiNPXF4TV 33eNN1XhlgTiGG6Vb0SarOF5WSwiKT0ySJ/I56RnLF288E2U4KmqVOI1usZZcNM6 0wO4ixc0yCU= =Mjut - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #21 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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