From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #42 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 23 March 1994 Volume 05 : Number 042 In this issue: Hortens and Gen Twining: A Need to Know? CLASSIC OUTBOARD Who thinks up these names? Black Horse Code Names UFO's in Michigan Story on Groom Lake Base (fwd) Re: Code Names See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: legion@werple.apana.org.au (John Stepkowski) Date: 23 Mar 1994 01:25:56 +1000 Subject: Hortens and Gen Twining: A Need to Know? Hi all... I'm cross-posting the following from alt.paranet.ufo in the hope that some of you kind folks might have some pertinent comments to make about the points raised in the message. Has anyone any ideas as to why someone like Gen Twining would _not_ be aware of the testing of advanced aircraft in the USA, particularly at a time when large numbers of US citizens were reporting seeing strange things in the sky? Does the current "need to know" classification date back to the late 1940s so that someone like a Gen. Twining would not be aware of what was going on at places like Muroc and Wright-Patterson? Since the following message is an earnest attempt to track the possible development of once "black" aircraft, I hope nobody will object to it as being "off-topic". I'll be more than pleased to pass on any comments you might have to to the original poster. Thank you. =========================== * Originally By: John Powell * Originally From: alt.paranet.ufo --------------------------- A few items here don't make sense. If anybody has any ideas I'd be happy to hear them... First, some excerpts from: The Horten Flying Wing in World War II: The History & Development of the Ho 229, by H. P. Dabrowski, translated from the German by David Johnson. (Schiffer Military History Vol. 47, ISBN 0-88740-357-3) - In February 1945 Heinz Scheidhauer flew the H VII to Gottingen. Hydraulic failure prevented him from extending the aircraft's undercarriage, and he was forced to make a belly landing. The resulting damage had not been repaired when, on April 7, 1945, US troops occupied the airfield. The aircraft presumably suffered the same fate as the H V and was burned. - The [H IX V1, RLM-Number 8-229] machine was sent to Brandis, where it was to be tested by the military and used for training purposes. It was found there by soldiers of the US 9th Armored Division at the end of the war and was later burned in a "clearing action." - Construction of the H IX V3 was nearly complete when the Gotha Works at Friederichsroda was overrun by troops of the American 3rd Army's VII Corps on April 14, 1945. The aircraft was assigned the number T2-490 by the Americans. The aircraft's official RLM designation is uncertain, as it was referred to as the Ho 229 as well as the Go 229. Also found in the destroyed and abandoned works were several other prototypes in various stages of construction, including a two-seat version. The V3 was sent to the United States by ship, along with other captured aircraft, and finally ended up in the H. H. "Hap" Arnold collection of the Air Force Technical Museum. The all-wing aircraft was to have been brought to flying status at Park Ridge, Illinois, but budget cuts in the late forties and early fifties brought these plans to an end. The V3 was handed over to the present-day National Air and Space Museum (NASM) in Washington D.C. >From these excerpts we see that certainly by late April or early May, 1945, the US had not just knowledge but at least semi-functional examples of the Horten flying wing. I'm recklessly assuming that the US would have wanted these craft back home for study as soon as was practical. Lieutenant General Twining's (Commander of the Army Materiel Command) September 23, 1947, letter to Brig. General Schulgen (Commanding General Army Air Forces) states: f. It is possible within the present U.S. knowledge - provided extensive detailed development is undertaken--to construct a piloted aircraft which has the general description of the object in subparagraph (e) above which would be capable of an approximate range of 700 miles at subsonic speeds. Why only possible? The Horten flying wing(s) had already been in our possession for two years. Twining continues: g. Any devlopments in this country along the lines indicated would be extremely expensive, time consuming and at the considerable expense of current projects and therefore, if directed, should be set up independently of existing projects. Why expensive? The design, prototype and development work had already been completed. Is this a dodge for more money? Twining points out: h. Due consideration must be given the following: (1) The possibility that these objects are of domestic origin - the product of some high security project not known to AC/AS-2 or this command. How likely is it that the AMC was unaware of the captured Horten flying wing(s)? Twining states that "This opinion was arrived at in a conference between personnel from the Air Institute of Technology, Intelligence T-2, Office, Chief of Engineering Division, and the Aircraft, Power Plant and Propeller Laboratories of Engineering Division T-3." How likely is it that these groups were unaware of the captured Horten flying wing(s)? Phil Klass [SUN #26, March 1994] quotes Air Intelligence Report No. 100-203-79, December 10, 1948: "The origin of the devices [UFOs] is not ascertainable. There are two reasonable possibilities: (1) The objects are domestic [U.S.] devices.... (2) Objects are foreign, and if so, it would seem most logical to consider that they are from a Soviet source. The Soviets possess information on a number of German flying-wing type aircraft, such as the Gotha P60A, Junkers EF-130 long-range jet bomber and the Horten 229 twin-jet fighter, which particularly resembles some of the descriptions of unidentified flying objects." This report was prepaed by the US Air Force's Directorate of Intelligence and the Office of Naval Intelligence and more than a year has passed since Twining's letter. How is it that these agencies believe that it is the Germans who have the captured Horten flying wing(s) or just information when, by this time, the US has had them for at least three years? What value would there be in pointing the finger at the Soviets _and_ suggesting that they have aircraft far in advance of our own? Klass contends that the USAF Directorate of Intelligence and the Office of Naval Intelligence demonstrate no knowledge of a Roswell-related crashed object/disk because there wasn't such an incident. Yet, three years after the fact, these same offices demonstrate no knowledge of the US possession of the Horten flying wing(s). Klass can't have it both ways - and neither can the rest of us. If these offices were not aware of the US possession of the Horten flying wing(s) then the so-called UFO cover-up exceeded their need-to-know and began _before_ the Roswell incident. If these offices were aware of the US possession of the Horten flying wing(s) then why would they not acknowledge such (in a Top Secret document that took 37 years to declassify)? ============================ +==================================+ |><= legion@werple.apana.org.au =><| |==================================| +-+ Just another comfort stop on +-+ | the Information Highway... | +------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Bill Robinson Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 10:08:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: CLASSIC OUTBOARD I think Paul McGinnis' description of CLASSIC OUTBOARD as a spy satellite program may be incorrect. The Ties That Bind (Jeffrey Richelson and Desmond Ball, 1985) claims that the "CLASSIC OUTBOARD (or AN/SSQ-72) system consists of hull- and mast-mounted antenna arrays, the AN/SRD-19 Diamond HF and VHF-DF system, and the AN/SLR-16 communications intercept and analysis receiver. The system is designed to provide over-the-horizon (OTH) detection and identification of surface ships for targeting purposes, and is to be deployed on 24 US guided missile frigates, destroyers and cruisers, to provide SIGINT, early warning and OTH targeting capabilities..." It is always possible that Richelson and Ball are wrong, but on the whole The Ties That Bind is a very reliable book. CLASSIC WIZARD, which Paul also mentioned, IS a satellite surveillance system, utilizing the WHITE CLOUD satellites. My apologies to all you purists for this very unSkunk-Works-related posting. Since this contribution constitutes my graduation from lurker to poster on this list, I hope I haven't started off by annoying everybody. :-) Bill Robinson barobins@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca ------------------------------ From: clark@acs.bu.edu (Jeff Clark) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 11:52:53 -0500 Subject: Who thinks up these names? I'd just like to ask if anyone can say how or why the government/miltary comes up with such odd and at times humorous names for its programs? I mean, Classic Outboard? White Cloud? Senior Citizen? I know some names make a bit of sense, like the Cobra family of missile tracking facilities, and the Senior family of aerial reconaissance stuff. But do you suppose someone has a sense of humor, or do word pairs like the ones above just happen by chance. I imagine that there probably is a resource like in "Hunt for Red October" where people just call up and ask for random words, but well, sometimes the results are just weird. Jeff Clark clark@acs.bu.edu (not acs2.bu.edu!) ------------------------------ From: Urban_Fredriksson@ki.icl.se (Urban Fredriksson) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 18:38:17 MET Subject: Black Horse Today I read about the "Black Horse" proposal for the first time. Not exactly a black programme, but it's sort of interesting to this list anyway. Black Horse is an idea for an F-16-sized almost-SSTO spaceplace which Mitchell Burnside Clapp at the USAF Phillips Lab came up with. It will have an empty weight of 4200 kg, a payload to orbit of 500 kg (the crew of two is not counted as payload). It is powered by burning kerosene and hydrogen peroxide. At take off, it has a full load of kerosene, but very little hydrogen peroxide aboard. Then it uses its two engines with sea level nozzles (expansion rate 70). At 14000 m and M 0.85, it takes on a full hydrogen peroxide load from a KC-135Q, becoming four times heavier. Then it fires up its five engines with vacuum nozzles (expansion ratio 240) and goes to orbit. Landing is performed at 100 kt and a glide slope of 6%. It will then have 1/3 the wing loading of the HL-20. - -- Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 15:03:29 PST Subject: Code Names Welllll, theres lotsa sortsa code names. Names for "public consumption" (Desert Shield/Desert Storm/Provide Hope) are designed for PR value. Really Secret names, for really secret projects, ought have NO relationship to the thing under discussion. Its to easy to fall into ASSuming the "opposition" is not clever enough to pick out your wordplay. "really secret" names we rarely here. The middle ground is scattered with some "really random" and some "obscure wordplay" types: PAVE PAWS is a Phased Array Warning System etc. I ASSume that, for those dealing in really secret stuff, there is a suitably ot (or pots) of "really random" names. regards dwp ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 7:29:44 EST Subject: UFO's in Michigan I was listening to that same station again this morning that reported the strange lights in the sky. It sounds like somebody from the government has talked to the weather service because now the NWS says that they did see something on their radar, but it had nothing to do with the lights in the sky. It was probably a storm fron moving at Mach 5. - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 8:53:56 EST Subject: Story on Groom Lake Base (fwd) > Dear Skunkers: I'm a reporter for the Dayton (Ohio) Daily News. A photographer > and I spent the first week of March in Nevada for a project on the secret base > at Groom Lake. Our feature package was published in Sunday's (3/20/94) > editions. The package includes a color photo of the base that runs across two > pages. It's a composite made from 11 individual frames, stitched together with > Adobe Photoshop. > Sorry, folks, no Aurora. Just 737s. But what a base! > -- Timothy R. Gaffney Is there anyway you could send me a copy of this article? I'd be happy to pay for postage. E-mail me direct. Thank-you!! - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ From: Dave Cox Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 17:06:32 Subject: Re: Code Names On Tue, 22 Mar 94 15:03:29 PST pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com Writes: >"really secret" names we rarely here. The middle ground is scattered with >some "really random" and some "obscure wordplay" types: > > PAVE PAWS is a Phased Array Warning System Ok, speaking of this, what is 'PAVE'. This name seems attached to everything from radars to FAE bombs. Thanx - --dave ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #42 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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