From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #104 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 10 June 1994 Volume 05 : Number 104 In this issue: Blackbird's Replacement Re: See it and not kill it? Doug on a rope.. Re: See it and not kill it? Re: Micro-tubes vs EMP Re: Micro-tubes vs EMP EMP Foxbat in Japan Re: See it and not kill it? re: the NEON saga See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 8:11:15 EDT Subject: Blackbird's Replacement Jeff Blue writes: > > How about some conjecture on what an interest in reactivating SR-71s implies > about its successor? If the SR-71s were retired because something else was > operational that was faster/cheaper/stealthier/etc., why now contemplate > reactivating SR-71s? Has the successor been grounded? Are required > missions surpassing available sorties? Was speed/turn-around time > sacrificed for stealth? Was operational status overstated? > > I'd be interested in some educated conjecture on this. > > Jeff Blue | "1 Part Computer Paper" > Univ. Of South Florida | box on floor > jblue@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu | > Maybe it's to throw people off track?!? - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ From: johnk@consilium.com (John Kelleher) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 17:35:13 -0700 Subject: Re: See it and not kill it? About a week ago, John Regus noted: > [discussion about Viktor Balenko's MiG-25 Foxbat deleted.] > The most >important thing we learned from this was the Russians had sorry metallurgy >but excellent propulsion system technology, afterall they had to push a >brick around in the air. >True story.... > >John F. Regus | >(713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE > WUI:REGUSHOU | > I have to dasagree somewhat with the conclusion here. We learned a great deal about Soviet weapon systems from that one aircraft. True, it was mostly of steel construction. A number of dissimilar metal welds were also noted, something that was somewhat a no-no. The much-touted electronics aboard the bird proved to be near antique in comparison to first line western systems. And the powerplant, albeit powerful, didn't have much of a lifespan. It was hot, yes - but not for long! On the surface, this seemed like a markedly inferior aircraft that had been a major concern for some time. Nonetheless, after the initial guffaws quieted, detailed analysis took over. It showed that the Soviet designers had indeed focused on a single threat (the XB-70) and with minimal technology cost produced a credible response to the threat. The tube-based electronice, laughed at initially, took on a new meaning when information regarding the impact of nuclear detonation induced electromagnetic pulse became more broadly recognized. The newer integrated circuits, surrounded by the energy-absorbing tubes, might well have had a longer life expectancy in the nuclear environment the Foxbat was designed to work in. Steel construction enabled large numbers of the craft to be built and deployed using existing technology, tools, and facilities. Maintenance was more easily completed without having to train a new generation of airframe mechanics. Characteristics of the construction material's behavior in the harsh climate of Siberia and other scenic deployment locations were already well known, so no long R&D timeline had to be considered. This was the traditional Soviet method of development. Unlike our modern Skunk Works, with its high-cost, cutting-edge technology, Soviet aircraft design bureaus tended to develop conservatively. They put out low-cost products in quantities that would defeat any perceived enemy by virtue of their sheer number. The famous line about "better is the enemy of good enough" might not be accurately attributed to a Russian general, but it certainly saw its application there. John Kelleher ------------------------------ From: John Erling Blad Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:32:51 +0200 Subject: Doug on a rope.. Hi! Latest newsflash here is that China is prep. to test a nuclear device. With the latest sighting(??) of eehh Aurora, can this be the reason? (Of course noone can answare, only speculate..) John ------------------------------ From: John Erling Blad Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:56:56 +0200 Subject: Re: See it and not kill it? MiG-25 Foxbat is so insensitive to electromagnetic pulse because of the tube-based electronic that it created a major paranoia among some. Is there anyone out there with knowledge about current status in the field of mineature tubes? Some years ago I heard about 10^2/cm^2 with 10^4/cm^2 within reach. That is they assumed then that they would be able to make small processors today. This is probably off topic. John ------------------------------ From: murr Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 07:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Micro-tubes vs EMP On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, John Erling Blad wrote: > MiG-25 Foxbat is so insensitive to electromagnetic pulse because of the > tube-based electronic that it created a major paranoia among some. > > Is there anyone out there with knowledge about current status in the field > of mineature tubes? Some years ago I heard about 10^2/cm^2 with 10^4/cm^2 > within reach. That is they assumed then that they would be able to make small > processors today. If you decrease the size of the tubes dramaticly would you not also increase it's sensitivity to EMP? Shorter distance = easier arc over. murr ------------------------------ From: John Erling Blad Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 13:50:29 +0200 Subject: Re: Micro-tubes vs EMP As I remember it the argument was that the tube would not die of an EMP, but if there is an arc any other electronics will be fryed(?). This isn't my field so I don't know. Only tubes I use are 4" high. Still I think this technology are many orders better than MOS. That is if I remember right. John (I must improve my grammer... Next year..) ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 11:24:35 EDT Subject: EMP EMP (popular fiction to the contrary) is not magic. Once understood and accepted, its just a matter of designing for it. (The accepted part is hard, the psychological acceptance that this is a real problem is not the same as reading a report saying so... CF M Rust visit to Moscow, Adm Kimmel & Gen Husband being told to be on a war footing...). N-EMP and its near cousin, lightning-EMP were both found to be a bigger risk to solid state electronics than had been accepted. The design techniques are similar, the fixes not particularly large. Plus, modern semiconductors are a lot more resistant, especially, if chosen for that from the wide array of technologies now available. Ferinstance (not strictly comparable, but indicative) some of the electrons running my workstation arrived via 1 MV DC link from Canada, to a recevie terminal "just up the road" where solid state devices chop the 1 MV/1000A into 60Hz for reinsertion in the grid. I am a firm believer in "best is the enemy of good enough (and its cousin, best is the enemy of _done_.). BUT. Too simple can be _too_ simple. CF T72/T80 vs M1A1... regards dwp ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 11:10:06 -0500 (CST) Subject: Foxbat in Japan My memory may be a little rusty (like that foxbat), but I think I remember that the Mig-25 that showed up in Japan didn't have an ejector-seat for the pilot. They were expected to roll the durn thing over and fall out. John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | ------------------------------ From: Rick Pavek Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 11:30:25 -0700 Subject: Re: See it and not kill it? I know that because of the fact that the USSR didn't have access to transistor or LSI technology... They continued to develop vacuum tube technology. Apparently they were able to suprise us with some of the things they'd done... Rick ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 22:36:43 PDT Subject: re: the NEON saga All those people who worry about their security clearances don't have to worry -- you won't receive a subscription unless you ask for it. In other news -- the name has been changed to NEON AZIMUTH after discussion with Native Americans. It's one thing to offend the U.S. military, but I don't feel like offending people who have gotten a raw deal in this country's history. Speaking of offending the military, I received a message from a military office who said I didn't have a legal right to use the (WNINTEL) message at the beginning of my ad. Unlike commercial slogans, military markings are -not- copyrighted, so I can do what I want. Issue #1 (on getting maps of restricted areas, including U.S. military maps) was well received and there are about 100 people on the subscription list. If you sent me a subscription message, and didn't receive Issue #1, please contact me. A reader asked about security precautions for the mailing list -- the mailing list is kept in encrypted format, with a backup encrypted copy. No mailing list file is kept on Portal. As always, back issues and other materials on excessive secrecy are stored on ftp.shell.portal.com (IP address 156.151.3.4) in the /pub/trader directory. Materials are available for anonymous FTP -- be sure to read the 00readme files for descriptions of files on the archive. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #104 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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