From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #106 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Sunday, 12 June 1994 Volume 05 : Number 106 In this issue: Re: Doughnuts On A Rope!!!!!!!! Re: NEON AZTEC Re: Auroa and mothership Re: External Combustion Black Aircraft Skunk Works dedicates new facilities in Palmdale External Combustion Black Aircraft (Fwd) External Combustion Black Aircraft See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: freeman@MasPar.COM (Jay R. Freeman) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 94 14:03:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Doughnuts On A Rope!!!!!!!! Did the original poster -- Cathy Doser -- notice anything reminiscent of a sonic boom? -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ From: Bruce Henderson Date: Mon, 6 Jun 94 12:59:19 -0700 Subject: Re: NEON AZTEC I think part of the problem is... Some folks on this list are connected with the intel / recc community. Either they are now or have been in the past. Some of them may even know about a thing or two. Secrecy agreements that you have with the government are pretty broad. I think people are just worried that if they play in the land of great mysteries that they might become disconnected with their 90's status symbol A JOB I for one think that what Paul is doing is a good idea. I may not be able to participate, but I am of the opinion that the light of public knowledge should shine is some of the dark corners of our federal system. And people like Paul are the ones to do it. Bruce ------------------------------ From: Jack-Lee Gibbons Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Auroa and mothership Clarence, I think the best way to show you the flaw in your plan, although ingenious, is to try and think like the government. You already have a multi-million dollar AWACS system up and running. It may make identification mistakes occasionally but so far, it has worked pretty well. Now, in the middle of budget cuts and military cut backs, you want to take another multimillion dollar plane and task it to the same mission in conjunction with the system already operating. Now, do you really think that Congress is going to approve the building of a whole fleet of extra B-2s just so they can assist the current AWACS system. Take it from someone who has seen the procurement process in action. It ain't going to happen! Jack >:-[ Here thar be monsters! "Hey ho! Let's go!" lumber@netcom.com ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 10:33:04 -0700 Subject: Re: External Combustion Black Aircraft > Has there been anything more reported about the aircraft >which was described in Aviation Week at the same time that they >described the Aurora aircraft. If you're talking about the diamond shaped aircraft in the 12/24/90 issue on pgs 41-44, No. Not a word. I would therefore venture to say that it is less of a good bet, with no further confirmation. But that is just my opinion. > This aircraft was described as >using its flat body as the bottom surface and its high speed >shockwave as the outer surface of a virtual rocket chamber into >which fuel was sprayed and ignited. The pressure of the >combustion on the aircraft and its shockwave drives the >aircraft forward. I seem to recall that in the article, the >aircraft was described as being black and stinking of kerosene >on the ground. Yes, thats the one talked about in the 12/24/90 issue. I might add that external burning for propulsion has been discredited as of late, even though, for example, the first positive thrust producing scramjet in 1958 was an external burner. It turns out that you can get mush more thrust by putting a shroud around the heat addition parts of the engine (where the fuel gets added) so that the combustion waves have additional hard surfaces to act against and produce thrust against. However, external burning does have legitimate application. For example in base drag reduction, where you wish to increase the pressure in the base or tail of a vehicle that has a high drag backend in certain flight regimes. The idea is also valid for stability and control. So if the reported article was correct, the above analysis of the report indicates that a completely accurate description of the vehicle was not given by the source to AW&ST. Contrast that against the multiple independent witness reports of the XB-70 like aircraft. There is more in support of the XB-70 like aircraft than the diamond shaped aircraft you mentioned. Just a thought. Larry ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 19:21:02 -0700 Subject: Skunk Works dedicates new facilities in Palmdale A summary of a May 12 Lockheed announcement: LOCKHEED SKUNK WORKS DEDICATES NEWEST BUILDING May 12 In ceremonies at its 542-acre Plant 10 facility in Palmdale California, Lockheed Advanced Development Co. (LADC - the Skunk Works) celebrated the moving of its base of operations to new facilities. The new 225,000-square-foot office building was dedicated as the "Kelly Johnson Advanced Development Center." It was named for the late Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson, the famed aircraft designer who founded the Skunk Works in 1943. The new building, when fully occupied this summer, will house almost 1,000 of LADC's engineering and program management people. A marker in tribute to Kelly Johnson was unveiled by Kelly's widow, Mrs. Nancy Johnson. The new office building is the last of 21 new buildings erected at the Palmdale site since the Skunk Works' move from outmoded Burbank facilities began in 1990. The 4 year construction and movement plan was completed on schedule. Lockheed Corp. Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Dan Tellep said that the new facility "symbolizes the Skunk Works' legacy of excellence and determination as well as its future promise." "Here in Palmdale," Tellep said, "everyone who wears a Lockheed badge can look ahead at boundless opportunities and know that the spirit of the Skunk Works lives on." On permanent display in front of the new building is a rebuilt F-80 Shooting Star. Also on display at the ceremony was an F-104 Starfighter, an SR-71 Blackbird, and an F-117A Stealth Fighter. ------------------------------ From: Frank Markus Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 19:59:36 -0400 Subject: External Combustion Black Aircraft larry@ichips.intel.com wrote: >If you're talking about the diamond shaped aircraft in the 12/24/90 >issue on pgs 41-44, No. Not a word. I would therefore venture to say >that it is less of a good bet, with no further confirmation. [omissions] >So if the reported article was correct, the above analysis of the >report indicates that a completely accurate description of the >vehicle was not given by the source to AW&ST. >Contrast that against the multiple independent witness reports >of the XB-70 like aircraft. There is more in support of the XB-70 >like aircraft than the diamond shaped aircraft you mentioned. The XB-70 like aircraft that you refer to is probably the "mothership" of the Aurora pair. It is apparently unrelated to the external combustion aircraft described in the same article (which I think was more recent than 1990 although I could be mistaken.) I would be very interested in the source for the assertion that external "external burning for propulsion has been discredited as of late ... [and [i]t turns out that you can get much more thrust by putting a shroud around the heat addition parts of the engine (where the fuel gets added) so that the combustion waves have additional hard surfaces to act against and produce thrust against." Have there been tests reported of aircraft/engines in which the shock wave is the (virtual) external wall of a virtual rocket engine in which the afterbody of the aircraft is the inner wall? This is to be distinguished from applications in which external combustion other active means are employed to alter the aerodynamic charactaristics of an aircraft. A propusion system should not be confused with a device or system that enhances the flight charactaristics of an airframe. While it may well be that external combustion systems my be useful in altering the performance of an aircraft, my question was directed at the use of external combustion as a virtual rocket engine at high speed as reported in AW&ST. --Frank-- ------------------------------ From: Frank Markus Date: Sun, 12 Jun 1994 02:49:09 -0400 Subject: (Fwd) External Combustion Black Aircraft Forwarding mail by: fmarkus@pipeline.com (Frank Markus) on Sat, 11 Jun 7:59 PM - ------------------- larry@ichips.intel.com wrote: >If you're talking about the diamond shaped aircraft in the 12/24/90 >issue on pgs 41-44, No. Not a word. I would therefore venture to say >that it is less of a good bet, with no further confirmation. [omissions] >So if the reported article was correct, the above analysis of the >report indicates that a completely accurate description of the >vehicle was not given by the source to AW&ST. >Contrast that against the multiple independent witness reports >of the XB-70 like aircraft. There is more in support of the XB-70 >like aircraft than the diamond shaped aircraft you mentioned. The XB-70 like aircraft that you refer to is probably the "mothership" of the Aurora pair. It is apparently unrelated to the external combustion aircraft described in the same article (which I think was more recent than 1990 although I could be mistaken.) I would be very interested in the source for the assertion that external "external burning for propulsion has been discredited as of late ... [and [i]t turns out that you can get much more thrust by putting a shroud around the heat addition parts of the engine (where the fuel gets added) so that the combustion waves have additional hard surfaces to act against and produce thrust against." Have there been tests reported of aircraft/engines in which the shock wave is the (virtual) external wall of a virtual rocket engine in which the afterbody of the aircraft is the inner wall? This is to be distinguished from applications in which external combustion other active means are employed to alter the aerodynamic charactaristics of an aircraft. A propusion system should not be confused with a device or system that enhances the flight charactaristics of an airframe. While it may well be that external combustion systems my be useful in altering the performance of an aircraft, my question was directed at the use of external combustion as a virtual rocket engine at high speed as reported in AW&ST. --Frank-- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #106 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).