From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #141 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 21 July 1994 Volume 05 : Number 141 In this issue: 20th Anniversary of the United States Air and Trade Show D-21Info (fwd) Re: Dayton 20th Anniversary of the United States Air and Trade Show (Fwd) Air-launched Black Horse (fwd) Re: Dayton Re: Dayton skunker tent Does anybody know... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: naa2254@dsacam.dsac.dla.mil (Tom Ohmer) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 12:23:00 -0400 Subject: 20th Anniversary of the United States Air and Trade Show It's only 3 days away. Who's going? Where do you want to meet? I suggest meeting at the B-52 bomb bay or in front of the F-117 right after the Thunderbirds show. The B-52 would provide some shelter (there is a little known law that the weekend of the Dayton airshow must be rainy or so hot that you melt), but the Nighthawk is more "skunky." Anybody? - -- Tom Ohmer, Computer Specialist, DSAC-AAA 1 614 692 8059 DLA Systems Automation Center, PO Box 1605, Columbus, OH 43216-5002 tohmer@dsac.dla.mil DoD #1436 ...osu-cis!dsac!tohmer "Sorry, we're closed." -- Sam Malone ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D-21Info (fwd) Please reply to the sender, not me. Thanks! kean Kean Stump Network Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. (503)-737-4740 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 23:31:54 EDT From:Zzzzgene@aol.com To: skunk-works-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: D-21Info Is there a good source of information on the D-21 with the SR and with the Buff? Interesting pictures have been published in Av Leak. Would be interested in operational data, i.e., number of missions flown, targets, successes/failures, etc. ------------------------------ From: brndlfly@MIT.EDU Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 14:05:40 EDT Subject: Re: Dayton I'm there. Under the F-117 after the Thunderbirds sounds fine to me. Both days? Also, any word on a time for the B-2 flyby Saturday? Morning or after- noon? -T T Velazquez MIT Aero & Astro brndlfly@athena.mit.edu "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft... And the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." -Wernher von Braun ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 14:35:52 EDT Subject: 20th Anniversary of the United States Air and Trade Show > It's only 3 days away. Who's going? Where do you want to meet? I suggest > meeting at the B-52 bomb bay or in front of the F-117 right after the > Thunderbirds show. The B-52 would provide some shelter (there is a little > known law that the weekend of the Dayton airshow must be rainy or so hot > that you melt), but the Nighthawk is more "skunky." > > Anybody? I take it that it's this weekend in Dayton? I'd really like to see that. Can you advise me of the times so I can go home and check with the boss? - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ From: Frank Markus Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 14:36:17 -0400 Subject: (Fwd) Air-launched Black Horse (fwd) Forwarding message by MLINDROOS@FINABO.ABO.FI - -------------------- From: MLINDROOS@FINABO.ABO.FI (Marcus Lindroos INF) Subject: Air-launched Black Horse (fwd) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 15:20:15 GMT Organization: ABO AKADEMI UNIVERSITY, FINLAND (Forwarded from Mitch Burnside Clapp) - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - -------- There are five good reasons to reject the notion of launching Black Horse from another vehicle altogether. First, it's dangerous. You have to make two aircraft fly well when joined, be able to separate safely, and still fly well after the separation. There is no way to build up in flight test to a separation; you either go for the whole thing or you don't try it. It is possible to accept this level of risk, but doing so makes it less attractive and much more expensive. Second, we have limited experience with aircraft-aircraft separations. In aviation history, we've done maybe 400 of them. We did more refueling than that every shift during Desert Storm. There is no complexity assiciated with in-flight propellant transfer - -- it is as easy and as routine as instrument landing. Third, aircraft- aircraft separation reduces the altitude for separation over inflight propellant transfer. All other things being equal, the ensemble is under the thrust of only one aircraft's engines and under the drag of both aircraft, plus the interference drag between them. Fourth, a new facility, perhaps a crane, will be needed to mate and demate the ensemble, which limits basing flexibilty. Finally, the carrier aircraft requirements are much more difficult than for a tanker. It needs to bear not only the weight of the propellant for orbit, but also the dry weight of the orbiter, and its payload, and the mating and separation hardware. This dwarfs the weight of the refueling system. For this reason, you have to develop an entirely new aircraft, or make major, airworthiness-affecting structural modifications to an existing aircraft. Tanking is safer, more familiar, better performing, more flexible, and cheaper than aircraft-aircraft separation. This is particularly true for the Ukrainian An-225. There's only one of them, and there will only be one because the tooling is gone. It has no range to speak of, and poor time to climb performance. I would rather tank from three KC-135s in sequence than use an An-225. Doing an international aircraft modification program is probably too much trouble and offers no obvious benefit to justify the costs and risks involved. The only advantage to aircraft-aircraft separation is the ability to eliminate the crew. I'm personally not in favor of that. Putting a crew on an existing spacecraft is expensive because existing spacecraft are dangerous. "Man-Rating", as NASA understands it, is essentially the process of making artillery safe to fly. An aircraft has inherently safe abort modes, and if it ever gets really bad, you can eject. Even failing that, you can always dump fuel and fly back to any airstrip. This secure intact abort requirement is why aircraft are man, woman, and child-rated from the start. Truly useful spacecraft will share the same features, and the simple truth is that we know how to do that with aircraft already. Put the crew in pressure suits (routine) and let them fly the jet (also routine) and there's nothing that is really any different from high perofrmance aircraft today except for the reentry. Besides, don't you want to fly it? - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - -------- (Regarding Black Horse and future development, Mitch says ARPA will contribute some money for now. What happens after that, nobody knows. Let's keep our fingers crossed!) MARCU$ ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 14:35:35 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: Dayton AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!! You mean Dayton is this weekend... why didn't anybody say anything... I have frequent flyer miles to burn.... Somebody should have said something.... There could have been a special skunk tent and we could all get together and argue. Regards, John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | On Wed, 20 Jul 1994 brndlfly@MIT.EDU wrote: > I'm there. Under the F-117 after the Thunderbirds sounds fine to me. > Both days? > > Also, any word on a time for the B-2 flyby Saturday? Morning or after- > noon? > > -T > > T Velazquez > MIT Aero & Astro > brndlfly@athena.mit.edu > "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft... > And the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." > -Wernher von Braun > ------------------------------ From: naa2254@dsacam.dsac.dla.mil (Tom Ohmer) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 17:23:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Dayton skunker tent In reply to the mail from ... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!! You mean Dayton is this weekend... why didn't > anybody say anything... I did. Around 26 May, if I remember. :-) > [...] There could have been a special skunk tent > and we could all get together and argue. HAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh, the mental picture THAT raises! ;-) - -- Tom Ohmer, Computer Specialist, DSAC-AAA 1 614 692 8059 DLA Systems Automation Center, PO Box 1605, Columbus, OH 43216-5002 tohmer@dsac.dla.mil DoD #1436 ...osu-cis!dsac!tohmer "Sorry, we're closed." -- Sam Malone ------------------------------ From: Rick Pavek Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 23:16:07 -0700 Subject: Does anybody know... What JP-8 is? Also... what aircraft use it? In quantities of approximately 30,000 lbs? In fact, I'd really be interested if someone can pull a manual off a shelf and list all the JP's... and their characteristics. I hear it goes up past JP-10 now. Rick kuryakin@halcyon.com ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #141 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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