From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #147 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 27 July 1994 Volume 05 : Number 147 In this issue: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 ABC News Report 0500 7/26/94 Re: US Air & Trade Show report Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 Re: US Air & Trade Show report Injuries during 82nd Airborne Mass Jump Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 Dayton Air Show Skunky? Planes photography and the US code Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #146 Future show dates Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 Rocketdyne Explosion Re: Dayton Air Show Skunky? Planes Re: ABC News Report Re: ABC News Report See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: greg bart Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 00:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 Regarding this business about "illegal pictures"...isn't this hogwash? Is the person who took the photos somehow related to the military or other government agency? Otherwise, if he is on public grounds he has zero responsibility to turn over his pictures, and the Sheriff sounds like he is violating the First Amendment. ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 05:43:54 -0500 (CST) Subject: ABC News Report 0500 7/26/94 ABC News reported this morning that Martin Marietta was taking over TRW "defence" satellite business. Time to speculate. During TRWs contract period the KH program was rendered ineffective by countermeasures as specified in the book "Deep Black" which has been referenced here before. Secondly, a TRW employee sold KH secrets to the Soviets in Mexico City...albeit it years ago, this probably still has left a horrible taste in the mouth of everyone from Langley to the Pentagon...(my opinion and analysis) John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 07:26:34 EDT Subject: Re: US Air & Trade Show report I heard there was an accident involving 20-30 members of the sky diving team there on Sunday. Can anyone elaborate? Paul ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 08:03:29 EDT Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 I believe, but then again I saw it at Rochester in 1993 and photographed it. Later when I looked at the photo there was no blur indication of movement so it looks like a plane going up. I guess I used too high a shutter speed. It was neat to see it and there was a trmendous amount of exhaust while he was doing it. At first I thought this was the Cobra routine that the Russians were famous for but later I saw a video of the Cobra routine being performed and it is definitely different. I guess I would call it a "Tail Stander". PM Thomas A. Gauldin says: > > Seeing the comments about the T' Birds being in Dayton reminds me of a > show they did at Pope AFB about 3-4 years ago. I saw what I considered > the most impressive thing an airplane ever did, but now nobody even > believes me when I tell them what I saw. > > During the show, one of the planes made a low, very slow approach to the > runway with the gear retracted. It then pitched up at the end of the > runway and applied just enough power to maintain about 20 feet of height > while balancing on the thrust of the engine alone. The plane slowly > continued to balance alone on thrust down the entire length of the runway > and then increased thrust to make a vertical ascent. > > I assume to this day that the plane did not have vectored thrust, so I > cannot explain how the pilot maintianed control. The low speed and high > high pitch angle surely preculede aerodynamic control. > > If any of you folks going to Dayton see the maneuver again, take a minute > and tell me how they maintian control. Actually, I'd just be happy to > know that I wasnt' just imagining the maneuver . > > Thomas A. Gauldin Here's to the land of the longleaf pine, > Raleigh, NC The summerland where the sun doth shine, > BSRB45A on Prodigy Where the weak grow strong and the strong grow great, > FAX (919) 676-1404 Here's to Downhome, the Old North State. > > ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 8:22:02 EDT Subject: Re: US Air & Trade Show report > I heard there was an accident involving 20-30 members of the > sky diving team there on Sunday. Can anyone elaborate? > Paul > I saw it on the news. It looked like they landed on the runway or some other paved surface and the wind caught their chute and dragged them head over heels about 20+- feet. - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ From: naa2254@dsacam.dsac.dla.mil (Tom Ohmer) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 09:11:42 -0400 Subject: Injuries during 82nd Airborne Mass Jump In reply to the mail from ... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I heard there was an accident involving 20-30 members of the > sky diving team there on Sunday. Can anyone elaborate? > Paul This was during the 82nd Airborne Mass Jump commemorating WWII's Operation Overlord. The news clip I saw showed it to be quite a bit windier than it was Saturday. It showed one 'trooper land on a runway hard, struggle getting free of his chute, and roll on the ground holding his legs up to keep his feet from touching the ground, obviously (to me) in pain. The majority of the injuries were said to be sprained/broken ankles. An unnamed "spokesperson" supposedly said that it is not uncommon to see 5% to 10% of the force in this type of exercise to sustain such an injury. Disclaimer: This is from memory and I'm only trying to convey what was on the local news broadcast here Sunday night. Jump?!? Well,... this thing is gonna LAND, isn't it?!? - -- Tom Ohmer, Computer Specialist, DSAC-AAA 1 614 692 8059 DLA Systems Automation Center, PO Box 1605, Columbus, OH 43216-5002 tohmer@dsac.dla.mil DoD #1436 ...osu-cis!dsac!tohmer "Sorry, we're closed." -- Sam Malone ------------------------------ From: "Thomas A. Gauldin" Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 09:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Paul Mangan wrote: > I believe, but then again I saw it at Rochester in 1993 and > photographed it. Later when I looked at the photo there was > no blur indication of movement so it looks like a plane going > up. I guess I used too high a shutter speed. It was neat I know that the probability of this is very small, but is there any practical application for the "tail walk" maneuver, such as blowing the runway off? I think that I'll try this in my Cessna 150 and see what happens . ------------------------------ From: Dave.Bonorden@amd.com (Dave Bonorden) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 09:38:43 CDT Subject: Dayton Air Show Skunky? Planes >All in all, a *GREAT* show!!! If anyone wants to know more (about the >airshow!), E-Mail me. I have dates for the next 3 years, too! > Yes, it was a great show -- kinda skunky were: - ---stuff deleted > E-9A, 84-048 'WE', ex 'N802AP', 82th TATS, 475th WEG, Tyndal AFB, FL - -- stuff deleted > - -- Andreas and Kathryn Calling the E-9A skunky might be exagerating a little. Although it looks strange, it's really just a telemetry and communications relay bird to support the Eglin/Tyndall Test Range. It provides (allegedly) over the horizon telemetry reception and relay as well as drone control relay for low altitude over water tests. It wasn't working very well for TM relay when I left Eglin in 1992, but I think it's been improved. Designers severely underestimated the multi-path problem over water. The E-9 also has an on-board radar used for range clearance (can't launch missiles with pleasure boats in the area). It's basically a converted DeHaviland Dash 8. Dave Bonorden ------------------------------ From: "Frank Schiffel, Jr." Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 09:57:54 CDT Subject: photography and the US code Actually, there are a lot of provisions in the US code under the espionage statutes that prevent you from photographing into any area deemed restricted by the President. I doubt he does it personally, but that's where it all comes from. It also precludes sketches, drawing, maps, etc. etc. All part of the standard package when you get a clearance as to why you can't do things. (section 10 something) The first amendment and the FIOA don't apply here. What would be interesting is how the sheriff is contracted out to do the Gov't work. Its supposed to be that a legitimate USG official takes your film and reads you the riot act. The usual smiling happy security types that we all know and love if you're in the government (and supposed to know better) or the FBI if you're one of 'them.' In any case, the sheriff has a legitimate right to do what he does since all he knows is that there's case law somewhere that tells him this is verboten. If he's wrong, there is always the option for suing for illegal arrest and anything else you can think up. but, you do have to comply (which is where David screwed up in Texas). It would probably make more sense to close the road. ------------------------------ From: Scott Murray Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 13:54:51 ADT Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 > > I believe, but then again I saw it at Rochester in 1993 and > photographed it. Later when I looked at the photo there was > no blur indication of movement so it looks like a plane going > up. I guess I used too high a shutter speed. It was neat > to see it and there was a trmendous amount of exhaust while > he was doing it. At first I thought this was the Cobra > routine that the Russians were famous for but later I saw a video > of the Cobra routine being performed and it is definitely > different. I guess I would call it a "Tail Stander". > PM I have seen this manuver (sp?) performed several times at the Shearwater International Airshow by CF-18s doing flight demonstrations. I believe it is called a 'Delta 360', which really doesn't describe it well at all. The announcers usually talk about how the F-18 is one of the few aircraft with a high enough thrust to weight ratio to perform it, and that the aircraft is pretty much under complete computer control during the manuver. It is very impressive to watch, but it really doesn't seem that it would ever be useful, unlike the Pugachev (sp?) Cobra (which is also pretty cool to see), which can be used in combat. Scott - -- =============================================================================== "Good, bad ... I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, "Army of Darkness" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Murray : murraygs@newton.ccs.tuns.ca 3rd Year Computer Science Student | Technical University of Nova Scotia =============================================================================== ------------------------------ From: Temp 2 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 13:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #146 I would like the list of the shows for the next three years please. I wasn't even aware they had aircraft of that nature on display to the public anymore. Thanks, Greg. ------------------------------ From: naa2254@dsacam.dsac.dla.mil (Tom Ohmer) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 14:26:55 -0400 Subject: Future show dates In reply to the mail from ... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I would like the list of the shows for the next three years please. I > wasn't even aware they had aircraft of that nature on display to the > public anymore. Thanks, Greg. 1995 Dayton International Air Show July 22-23, 1995 1996 United States Air and Trade Show July 17-21, 1996 1997 Dayton International Air Show July 19-20, 1997 - -- Tom Ohmer, Computer Specialist, DSAC-AAA 1 614 692 8059 DLA Systems Automation Center, PO Box 1605, Columbus, OH 43216-5002 tohmer@dsac.dla.mil DoD #1436 ...osu-cis!dsac!tohmer "Sorry, we're closed." -- Sam Malone ------------------------------ From: lhawkins@annie.wellesley.edu Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 14:46:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 In your message dated: Tue, 26 Jul 94 13:54:51 -0300 you write: >> > >I have seen this manuver (sp?) performed several times at the >Shearwater International Airshow by CF-18s doing flight >demonstrations. I believe it is called a 'Delta 360', which really >doesn't describe it well at all. The announcers usually talk about >how the F-18 is one of the few aircraft with a high enough thrust to >weight ratio to perform it, and that the aircraft is pretty much under >complete computer control during the manuver. It is very impressive >to watch, but it really doesn't seem that it would ever be useful, >unlike the Pugachev (sp?) Cobra (which is also pretty cool to see), >which can be used in combat. What about for slowing down enough so that your pursuer overshoots? Cheers, - --Lee > >Scott > > >-- >============================================================================== >= > "Good, bad ... I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, "Army of Darkness" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >- > Scott Murray : murraygs@newton.ccs.tuns.ca > 3rd Year Computer Science Student | Technical University of Nova Scotia >============================================================================== >= ------------------------------ From: Ivan Baird Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 19:30:29 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #143 After reading the first part of the thread, I was just waiting to see what the result would be before mentioning this - but your note has prompted me to reply. I too, have seen this done many times in Shearwater - results as you say. The F-18 does a 306 degree circle, about 1/2 mile in diameter, at very low level. First few times, its very impressive - later its just a marvel to watch (ie. HOW do they keep it in the air :-) ). Anyway, Scott - since you are in NS near Shearwater - whats the scuttlebutt - this the last year or what? Please, though - we should take that to e-mail. Anybody else on the list do Shearwater?!?!?!? Ivan Baird, CET MicroRepair Technician University of New Brunswick ijb@Jupiter.Sun.CSD.UNB.ca ijb@unb.ca Have a GOOD One!!! ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 17:48:27 -0500 (CST) Subject: Rocketdyne Explosion There was a report of a fuel explosion at a Rocketdyne plant at 1700 CDT 26 July 94... Any more info? John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | ------------------------------ From: Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 18:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Dayton Air Show Skunky? Planes >Calling the E-9A skunky might be exagerating a little. Although it >looks strange, it's really just a telemetry and communications relay >bird to support the Eglin/Tyndall Test Range. It provides (allegedly) >over the horizon telemetry reception and relay as well as drone control >relay for low altitude over water tests. It wasn't working very well >for TM relay when I left Eglin in 1992, but I think it's been improved. >Designers severely underestimated the multi-path problem over water. >The E-9 also has an on-board radar used for range clearance (can't >launch missiles with pleasure boats in the area). It's basically a >converted DeHaviland Dash 8. The E-9A is an LTV modified DeHavilland Canada (Boeing) DHC-8 Dash 8. The USAF selected the DHC-8, in 1985, to provide the airborne platform for a surveillance system required in support of drone and missile testing out of Tyndall AFB, Florida. Two of them were converted by LTV's Sierra Research Division to carry a steerable phased-array antenna in a starboard-side fuselage fairing, AN/APS-128D sea surveillance radar in a black radome under the forward fuselage and a special avionics fit. The two aircraft entered service in 1988. Both are painted white and flew with the civil registrations 'N801AP' and 'N802AP' with the USAF Air Warfare Center, 475th WEG, 82nd ATRS, at Tyndall AFB, FL. I asked one of the pilots, since when they carried military serials, and he said since about a year. They are now marked as '84-0047' & '84-0048' with tailcode 'WE'. I think that flying with civil registrations for "the military", like the E-8 J-Stars, the YF-22 and YF-23, and of course several U-2, is skunky enough to be mentioned, let alone "drone control". :) - --Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 16:43:53 -0700 Subject: Re: ABC News Report John Regus says... >ABC News reported this morning that Martin Marietta was taking over TRW >"defence" satellite business. Hmm... interesting. TRW is a major player in the ELINT satellite biz. They also had a project in the works for the Follow-on Early Warning System satelites to replace the DSP birds. >Time to speculate. During TRWs contract period the KH program was >rendered ineffective by countermeasures as specified in the book "Deep >Black" which has been referenced here before. Well, Deep Black has been wrong before, and that sounds like another good example. The only real "countermeasures" for spy satellites is to cover up your secret stuff when they are passing overhead, but that still does not prevent them from being highly effective... > Secondly, a TRW employee sold KH secrets to the Soviets in Mexico > City...albeit it years ago, this probably still has left a horrible >taste in the mouth of everyone from Langley to the Pentagon... I'm sure. That was probably one of the best bargains in espionage history. Lockheed Missiles and Space Co. is the prime contractor for the KH birds however, not TRW... although i'm sure they could have some involvement. ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 21:45:06 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: ABC News Report I believe TRW was the prime subcontractor for all of the onboard elint gear on the KH series.... I may be wrong. Larry@chips??? John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Dean Adams wrote: > > John Regus says... > >ABC News reported this morning that Martin Marietta was taking over TRW > >"defence" satellite business. > > Hmm... interesting. TRW is a major player in the ELINT satellite biz. > They also had a project in the works for the Follow-on Early Warning > System satelites to replace the DSP birds. > > >Time to speculate. During TRWs contract period the KH program was > >rendered ineffective by countermeasures as specified in the book "Deep > >Black" which has been referenced here before. > > Well, Deep Black has been wrong before, and that sounds like another > good example. The only real "countermeasures" for spy satellites is > to cover up your secret stuff when they are passing overhead, but that > still does not prevent them from being highly effective... > > > Secondly, a TRW employee sold KH secrets to the Soviets in Mexico > > City...albeit it years ago, this probably still has left a horrible > >taste in the mouth of everyone from Langley to the Pentagon... > > I'm sure. That was probably one of the best bargains in espionage history. > Lockheed Missiles and Space Co. is the prime contractor for the KH birds > however, not TRW... although i'm sure they could have some involvement. > ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #147 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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