From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #155 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 20 September 1994 Volume 05 : Number 155 In this issue: Re: High-tec Re: High-tec Re: High-tec Re: High-tec Re: High-tec Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #154 Re: High-tec Expednables High-tec seeing the unseeable seeing the unseeable (the real message) Re: High-tec Re: hi tec Re: High-tec Re: High-tec Re: seeing the unseeable (the real message) Re: High-tec Re: High-tec Re: High-tec Re: High-tec See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zoz@cs.adelaide.edu.au (Kaishakunin) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:41:07 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: High-tec John Regus informs us: |> PM,9/94,Kirtland AFB, NM |> "The Air Force's Phillips Laoratory has tapped to rival industry teams |> captained by Rockwell and Boeing to design airborne laser systems that |> would shoot from the snout of a 747 |> Modified for inflight refueling the 747 would prowl the airspace at 40,000 |> feet where the air is thin and clouds minimal. Sensors would react to Is a 747 really the ideal airframe for this sort of thing? What about a high-altitude, high-endurance vehicle a la U2? |> missle launches and slue the laser around to fire at multiple targets. |> The lasers mission would be to pick off missles before they broke through |> and arc out of the atmosphrer. Before going out of the atmosphere? Given a ballistic missile trajectory, this would necessitate operating the vehicle in/over or near hostile airspace, no? |> To hit bull's eye after bull's eye the |> system would have to operate at unprecedented speed." Interesting... one wonders that if this is possible why mount it on a 747 and not on a satellite as was the original plan, hmmm? Thanks for the info, John. Zoz - -- ______ _____________ ______________________ ______ /\####/\ / / / / /\####/\ / \##/ \ /_______ / / _ ______ / / \##/ \ /____\/____\ / / / / \ \ / / /____\/____\ \####/\####/ / /____\ \_/ / / /_______ \####/\####/ \##/ \##/ / / / / \##/ \##/ \/____\/ /_____________________/ /____________/ \/____\/ zoz@cs.adelaide.edu.au http://www.cs.adelaide.edu.au/~zoz/ If you see a blind man, run up and kick him. Why should you be kinder than God? -- Old Iranian Proverb ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 16:02:44 +0200 Subject: Re: High-tec >>>>> "Kaishakunin" == Kaishakunin writes: Kaishakunin> Is a 747 really the ideal airframe for this sort of Kaishakunin> thing? What about a high-altitude, high-endurance Kaishakunin> vehicle a la U2? Maybe because of this : - - power requirements - - cooling - - size - - weight Kaishakunin> Interesting... one wonders that if this is possible why Kaishakunin> mount it on a 747 and not on a satellite as was the Kaishakunin> original plan, hmmm? Maintenance maybe ? ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 10:15:25 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: High-tec I gave consideration to the same type of questions that you have asked, specifically, why a 747, probably because of all of the high speed computers and tracking mechanisms that would have to be loaded onto the laser platform, a 747 would probably be necessary. The other explanation is to make this a cost-effective project the AirForce will have to run constant charter flights to make the program pay for itself.... Can't you imagine it, going from LA to Hawaii, when suddenly a NK scud launch is detected and the plane yanks, banks and climbs like crazy and all the passengers get brown out when the laser starts filling the air with bright red streaks. John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | On Tue, 20 Sep 1994, Kaishakunin wrote: > John Regus informs us: > |> PM,9/94,Kirtland AFB, NM > |> "The Air Force's Phillips Laoratory has tapped to rival industry teams > |> captained by Rockwell and Boeing to design airborne laser systems that > |> would shoot from the snout of a 747 > |> Modified for inflight refueling the 747 would prowl the airspace at 40,000 > |> feet where the air is thin and clouds minimal. Sensors would react to > > Is a 747 really the ideal airframe for this sort of thing? What about a > high-altitude, high-endurance vehicle a la U2? > > |> missle launches and slue the laser around to fire at multiple targets. > |> The lasers mission would be to pick off missles before they broke through > |> and arc out of the atmosphrer. > > Before going out of the atmosphere? Given a ballistic missile trajectory, > this would necessitate operating the vehicle in/over or near hostile > airspace, no? > > |> To hit bull's eye after bull's eye the > |> system would have to operate at unprecedented speed." > > Interesting... one wonders that if this is possible why mount it on a 747 > and not on a satellite as was the original plan, hmmm? > > Thanks for the info, John. > > Zoz > -- > ______ _____________ ______________________ ______ > /\####/\ / / / / /\####/\ > / \##/ \ /_______ / / _ ______ / / \##/ \ > /____\/____\ / / / / \ \ / / /____\/____\ > \####/\####/ / /____\ \_/ / / /_______ \####/\####/ > \##/ \##/ / / / / \##/ \##/ > \/____\/ /_____________________/ /____________/ \/____\/ > > zoz@cs.adelaide.edu.au > http://www.cs.adelaide.edu.au/~zoz/ > > If you see a blind man, run up and kick him. > Why should you be kinder than God? > > -- Old Iranian Proverb ------------------------------ From: Tim Ottinger Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 10:51:09 CDT Subject: Re: High-tec :Maybe because of this : :- power requirements :- cooling :- size :- weight Maybe also for internal space, see below. :Kaishakunin> Interesting... one wonders that if this is possible why :Kaishakunin> mount it on a 747 and not on a satellite as was the :Kaishakunin> original plan, hmmm? : :Maintenance maybe ? I bet a laser "death ray" like that one will require very frequent reloading with lasing material! It might be tough to reload a satellite. - -- Tim Ottinger - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- If I state an opinion or mess up a fact, you have to assume that's the way I am. You mustn't assume my company tells me to be that way. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Geoff.Miller@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 09:11:46 +0800 Subject: Re: High-tec Tim Ottinger writes: > I bet a laser "death ray" like that one will require very > frequent reloading with lasing material! Not to sound like a techno-peasant or anything, but what sort of material would this be? What do lasers use for fuel? - --Geoff ------------------------------ From: "Thomas A. Gauldin" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 12:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #154 Several posts mentioned that folks were developing an "anti-stealth" missile. One of the first things that come to mind is natrually how such a missile would be directed toward the target. From actually "seeing" the stealth fighter, I know that it is as visible in daylight as any other black aircraft. While it might have infrared absorbing capabilities, we know that it doesn't absorb visible light and probably ultravilot. Are there NOW any AA missiles that track the target in the visible spectrum? IF there aren't why haven't the folks devised a multi-spectrum tracking array? Thomas A. Gauldin Here's to the land of the longleaf pine, Raleigh, NC The summerland where the sun doth shine, BSRB45A on Prodigy Where the weak grow strong and the strong grow great, FAX (919) 676-1404 Here's to Downhome, the Old North State. ------------------------------ From: Ed Hillman Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 12:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: High-tec On Tue, 20 Sep 1994, John Regus wrote: > PM,9/94,Kirtland AFB, NM > "The Air Force's Phillips Laoratory has tapped to rival industry teams > captained by Rockwell and Boeing to design airborne laser systems that > would shoot from the snout of a 747 > Modified for inflight refueling the 747 would prowl the airspace at 40,000 > feet where the air is thin and clouds minimal. Sensors would react to > missle launches and slue the laser around to fire at multiple targets. > The lasers mission would be to pick off missles before they broke through > and arc out of the atmosphrer. To hit bull's eye after bull's eye the > system would have to operate at unprecedented speed." > I would suspect funding for this program is part of the BMDO of the Air > Force and is a residual of the SDI. > [snip] Sounds like the old Airborne Laser Lab (ALL) to me. This was an AFWL (Air Force Weapons Lab; now part of the Phillips Lab) program at Kirtland AFB during the '70s and '80s as I recall. I believe the airframe used for that was wither a 707 or 727, but I could be mistaken :). Ed Hillman ehillman@DGS.dgsys.com Signature?!? I don't need no stinking signature!! ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 13:24:49 EDT Subject: Expednables >> I bet a laser "death ray" like that one will require very >> frequent reloading with lasing material! hmmmm? Lasing medium is not expended. Their maybe some wera and tear, but it is not expended. The combustion driven lasers do need refueling, they are a special case: The population inversion is driven by teh combustion, which takes place IN the laser cavity. For common lasers (CO2, Ruby) the energy comes inf rom the outside, in the form of light, or "electrons". >Not to sound like a techno-peasant or anything, but what sort of material >would this be? What do lasers use for fuel? Depends on the sort of laser. Hydrogen & Fluorine, i believe, have been used in combustion lasers. For antyhing electrically or optically pumped, any old fuel which will run the generator. SDI was gonna use small nuclear devices to pump the x ray lasers. Basically a One-Shot proposition... regards dwp ------------------------------ From: "s.k. whiteman" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 12:45:07 EST Subject: High-tec >Ed Hillman writes: >AFB during the '70s and '80s as I recall. I believe the airframe used for >that was wither a 707 or 727, but I could be mistaken :). I believe that it was an NC-135..... Sam ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:14:21 EDT Subject: seeing the unseeable From: US4RMC::"scoundrl@Cybernetics.NET" "Thomas A. Gauldin" 20-SEP-1994 14:09:39.18 To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu CC: Subj: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #154 Several posts mentioned that folks were developing an "anti-stealth" missile. One of the first things that come to mind is natrually how such a missile would be directed toward the target. From actually "seeing" the stealth fighter, I know that it is as visible in daylight as any other black aircraft. While it might have infrared absorbing capabilities, we know that it doesn't absorb visible light and probably ultravilot. Are there NOW any AA missiles that track the target in the visible spectrum? IF there aren't why haven't the folks devised a multi-spectrum tracking array? Thomas A. Gauldin Here's to the land of the longleaf pine, Raleigh, NC The summerland where the sun doth shine, BSRB45A on Prodigy Where the weak grow strong and the strong grow great, FAX (919) 676-1404 Here's to Downhome, the Old North State. % ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ====== % Received: from inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com by us4rmc.pko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA16831; Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:11:18 -040 % Received: from gaia.UCS.ORST.EDU by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/10Aug94) id AA04467; Tue, 20 Sep 94 11:02:13 -070 % Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id JAA11412 for skunk-works-outgoing; Tue, 20 Sep 1994 09:39:08 -0700 % Received: from Cybernetics.NET (server0.cybernetics.net [198.80.48.52]) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA11404 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 1994 09:39:04 -0700 % Received: by Cybernetics.NET (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02403; Tue, 20 Sep 94 12:38:57 ED % Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 12:38:57 -0400 (EDT) % From: "Thomas A. Gauldin" % To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu % Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #154 % In-Reply-To: <199409201247.FAA29832@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> % Message-Id: % Mime-Version: 1.0 % Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII % Sender: skunk-works-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu % Precedence: bulk ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:19:59 EDT Subject: seeing the unseeable (the real message) Sorry bout my last. >Several posts mentioned that folks were developing an "anti-stealth" missile. >One of the first things that come to mind is natrually how such a missile >would be directed toward the target. From actually "seeing" the stealth >fighter, I know that it is as visible in daylight as any other black >aircraft. While it might have infrared absorbing capabilities, we know >that it doesn't absorb visible light It does. That's why it looks black. Its less visible, in the visible, in daylight and night conditions than a (say) gloss Aluminum finish. I believe it is optimized for night low vis, in a non serchlight environment. Daylight low vis calls for the medium grey... A pefect absorber, against a daylight sky, stands out BECAUSE its black. Project Yehudi, WWII, involved wilful addition of light to make an a/c fade into the skylight. Works well. Adds weight. regards dwp ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:32:53 -0700 Subject: Re: High-tec Popular Science or Popular Mechanics had a concept drawing on this a month or two ago, if I recall correctly, showing the installation on a 747. Don't forget the propulsion applications of such a device as well! In fact, check out "Future Flight" by Leik Myrabo and Dean Ing. Also check out a work of fiction written by Dean Ing called "The Heavy Lifters" (I think I have that title right). One can see the possibilities in what I'm talking about in both of these books. Quite interesting, especially if you want to understand why a heavy lifting aircraft might be used to carry the laser. It's an interesting twist to Professor Leik Myrabo's original ground based concept, but in this concept, an airborne 747 equipped with a laser system could be used to help boost military light sats into orbit during times when the normal launch mechanisms aren't viable - interesting idea. By the way. I had a chance to meet Dean Ing recently and have a nice short chat with him. I was suprised to learn that he had worked at Lockheed R&D back in mid 60's. If you read any of his books, you are surprised at how "in the groove" his subjects are to the things that interest us. In fact, in the book "Ransom of Black Stealth One", Dean told me that one of the characters in the book was based on Ben Rich! When I asked Dean what he worked on at Lockheed in the 60's, he wouldn't tell me! He seemed quite knowledgeable about the D-21, although he said he didn't work on that program. His latest book is also rather interesting! Entitled "Butcher Bird", it is about a long endurance, high altitude, very stealthy aircraft that is programmed to "Terminate" the targets that it has been programmed to look for. Rather interesting how it actually does it! Dean also told me that Professor Myrabo at RPI recently got a Laser system to do propulsion experiments with. Evidently Dean Ing's book "Heavy Lifters" played a role in that. Interesting. Larry ------------------------------ From: "Christian Jacobsen" Date: 20 Sep 1994 11:35:16 U Subject: Re: hi tec Subject: Time:11:31 AM OFFICE MEMO Re>hi tec Date:9/20/94 >What do lasers use for fuel? Light bulbs? Seriously, though... Zoz bent the electrons to say: >Interesting... one wonders that if this is possible why mount it on a 747 >and not on a satellite as was the original plan, hmmm? And I say: Well why not a 747? Cheap, plentiful, expendable, easy to fly, and comfortable, they are everything that a U2 and/or a satellite are not. All of these factors also could make them rather stealthy....security through obscurity. There are so many 747's in the air, it would be pretty easy to hide within all of the commercial airline traffic. Seems like someone is finally using the old noggin... - - Xtian ------------------------------ From: Colin Theodore Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 14:47:11 -0400 Subject: Re: High-tec - -> :Maybe because of this : - -> :- power requirements - -> :- cooling - -> :- size - -> :- weight - -> Maybe also for internal space, see below. - -> - -> :> Interesting... one wonders that if this is possible why - -> :> mount it on a 747 and not on a satellite as was the - -> :> original plan, hmmm? - -> : - -> :Maintenance maybe ? - -> To use a satellite for this sort of thing, then it would have to be over Russia all of the time. That would mean that it would have to be in geosynchronous orbit and consequently would be a long way away and would have to be very accurate and powerful to do the job. Another option is to use a bunch of satellites in low earth orbit, so that at least one is over Russia at any given time. The number of satellites required depends on the altitude and the coverage required, but I assume that quite a few would be needed. So for this case, the cost of putting many very powerful lasers into orbit would be prohibitive. One last point. How long would it take a laser beam to disable a missile? For instance, if it would take one second for the laser to burn through the casing of the missile, there are only a limited number that one laser could disable. Also what if the Russians spun the missiles? Thus preventing the laser from being able to focus on one point for the required time to disable the missile. Cheers, Colin. - ->> Engineers aren't supposed to be able to spell. ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 14:35:15 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: High-tec It was a 767... the same airframe and porting for the laser was later used for "SPYGLASS" John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | On Tue, 20 Sep 1994, s.k. whiteman wrote: > >Ed Hillman writes: > >AFB during the '70s and '80s as I recall. I believe the airframe used for > >that was wither a 707 or 727, but I could be mistaken :). > > I believe that it was an NC-135..... > Sam ------------------------------ From: "Philip R. Moyer" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 12:49:10 -0700 Subject: Re: seeing the unseeable (the real message) ------------------------------ From: "Philip R. Moyer" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 12:53:48 -0700 Subject: Re: High-tec I believe other factors are involved. For example, part of the destructive process involves aerodynamic pressure; it's better to have the missile break up over enemy territory than over one's own (particularly if the MIRV has already separated from the bus). Also, I *think*, correct me if I'm wrong, that tracking is easier during the boost phase... Cheers, Phil ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:20:51 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: High-tec Sorry Colin but I have to disagree with your two most prevalent thesis within your mail: 1. Russia is our #1 missle threat 2. By taking 1 sec to burn through a missle casing that not enough missles could be knocked out...quick answer 60 missles a minute is quite a lot. Back to #1, I rate the following countries as high-threat, hostile missle launch candidates against another country. IRBM => North Korea, Israel, Iraq, Iran ICBM=> PRC, Russia, France John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | On Tue, 20 Sep 1994, Colin Theodore wrote: > > -> :Maybe because of this : > -> :- power requirements > -> :- cooling > -> :- size > -> :- weight > -> Maybe also for internal space, see below. > -> > -> :> Interesting... one wonders that if this is possible why > -> :> mount it on a 747 and not on a satellite as was the > -> :> original plan, hmmm? > -> : > -> :Maintenance maybe ? > -> > > To use a satellite for this sort of thing, then it would have to be > over Russia all of the time. That would mean that it would have to be > in geosynchronous orbit and consequently would be a long way away and > would have to be very accurate and powerful to do the job. > > Another option is to use a bunch of satellites in low earth orbit, so > that at least one is over Russia at any given time. The number of > satellites required depends on the altitude and the coverage required, > but I assume that quite a few would be needed. So for this case, the > cost of putting many very powerful lasers into orbit would be > prohibitive. > > One last point. How long would it take a laser beam to disable a > missile? For instance, if it would take one second for the laser to > burn through the casing of the missile, there are only a limited > number that one laser could disable. Also what if the Russians spun > the missiles? Thus preventing the laser from being able to focus on > one point for the required time to disable the missile. > > Cheers, > > Colin. > > > ->> Engineers aren't supposed to be able to spell. > ------------------------------ From: "Philip R. Moyer" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 10:40:30 -0700 Subject: Re: High-tec >Sounds like the old Airborne Laser Lab (ALL) to me. This was an AFWL >(Air Force Weapons Lab; now part of the Phillips Lab) program at Kirtland >AFB during the '70s and '80s as I recall. I believe the airframe use>d for >that was wither a 707 or 727, but I could be mistaken :). It was a 707. It's on display at the AF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, OH. The project crest is painted below the cockpit on the port side of the plane. The motto gave Duane and me quite a laugh: "Victory Through Light." :-) I also recall the program was successful. Philip R. Moyer Bits: prm@netcom.com Managing Partner Voice: 510-606-9875 Information Security Engineering Associates Fax: 510-606-9875 48 2E 4C 36 9A 3F F9 1E 74 77 18 E4 2C DB F0 5F ------------------------------ From: Ralph the Wonder Llama Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:43:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: High-tec >One last point. How long would it take a laser beam to disable a >missile? For instance, if it would take one second for the laser to >burn through the casing of the missile, there are only a limited >number that one laser could disable. Also what if the Russians spun >the missiles? Thus preventing the laser from being able to focus on >one point for the required time to disable the missile. This was talked about to a certain extent in Clancy's book _The Cardinal of the Kremlin_. Interestingly, spinning the missiles really doesn't seem to matter. I seem to remember one of the characters saying, "Yeah, you can pirouette in front of a shotgun and it'll do you about as much good...." I don't know how accurate this is, but knowing how well Clancy gets his facts straight..... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Guslick / ^ \ USnail: 711 Hwy. C NAR #53962 ---(.)==<-.->==(.)--- Grafton, WI 53024 michaelg@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu SR-71 Blackbird ph.: (414) 377-4428 IRC: HaveBlue TIP #112 "Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #155 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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