From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #162 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 7 October 1994 Volume 05 : Number 162 In this issue: Re: PS Interview with Ben Rich Cavitation... RE: X-32 Re: Groom Lake Re: Incident at Boscombe USAF ADMITS TO GROOM LAKE Re: PS Interview with Ben Rich Re: X-32 Re: (I) X-33, too SENIOR programs SR-71 coming back? Re: Incident at Boscombe RAF Woodbridge Ben Rich's SKUNK WORKS Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #161 Toshiba/USSR subs, etc. Re: Air International TR-3A Article subs/Toshiba/Norway/Eastman? Air Force thoughts on FOIA Aurora, TR-3A, X-32, aeroballistic rocket See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Lafford Date: Mon, 3 Oct 94 10:04:48 EDT Subject: Re: PS Interview with Ben Rich murr writes: >Rotchester and machine tools bring to mind Harding... Not the 1st company >I think of when it comes to CNC mills. It's not your company is it? >murr George Allegrezza writes: >Ummmm . . . . . Rochester Telephone? :-) >George I'll give you guessing another hint. What parts do super accurate CNC machines, prop drive shafts and nuc reactor cooling pumps all have in common? The CNC technology was important but the ability to make _these_ was to some, even more so. We should also remember that the CNC mill used to make supercritical props can also shape more dangerous materials. This was a larger problem. Rick - ----------------------------------------- Rick Lafford Clinical Diagnostics Eastman Kodak Co. lafford@clpd.kodak.com ======================================== ------------------------------ From: John Erling Blad Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:55:20 +0100 Subject: Cavitation... >Speculation on: > The CNC machine is just a tool. WOnder where the Russians got the > design techniques? Internally developed? They developed the technology. It's not very difficult, you just need the tool.. >Speculation II: > Was it decreased noise, per se, or the fact that the screws would be > more similar, reduing the differences used to tell one USSR sub from > another??? Well, if you know how often a sub is sailing you have a very interesting piece of information. John ------------------------------ From: Kathyrn Schnars Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: X-32 George Allegrezza wrote: >The X-32 is the newly assigned designation for the DARPA V/STOL strike >fighter demonstration program. Thats what I read, the ARPA/USAF/UK ASTOVL program was designated X-32 some time ago. >Aerospace people in this country have been talking about supersonic V/STOL >for years, and finally the DoD has bellied up to the bar with the necessary >funding to make it happen, with UK participation as well. As they did in the 50's with the Bell XF-108, in the 60's with the MDD/BAe XV-16A, and in the 70's/80's with the NASA/Boeing/DHC E-7 -- none ever reached beyond mock-up or wind tunnel test model status. >Congress is complicating matters by trying to merge this program with JAST, >which is a long-range R&D program to develop a CTOL/VTOL F-18 class fighter >for the 2005 time period. The X-32, in the X-plane tradition, is designed >to get practical experience with the technology in the shortest possible >time, while JAST is a (to my mind) catch-all program for a number of >advanced technologies, with only a nebulous "deadline" for a technology >maturity decision. This isn't to sat that JAST will never generate any >useful results. And with all the budget constraints, JAST may well replace the F-22 ATF too, if this one gets delayed too long (more than three years). Now let's hope, that at least the X-32 ASTOVL program leads to one or two flying aircraft. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Legalize Adulthood! Date: Mon, 03 Oct 1994 12:51:11 -0600 Subject: Re: Groom Lake In article , Michael Hawthorne writes: > Now, everybody know about the existence of the Groom Lake base. [...] > There has to be at least one more secret base out there. What you're forgetting is that there is another dry lakebed, that is *not* visible from public land, about 15 miles south of Groom Lake. It is called Pappoose Lake, and is well within the perimiter of the existing restricted area. It wouldn't be difficult at all to move things a few miles south to Pappoose Lake. In fact, I'd think that the fact that everyone knows about Groom would make Pappoose an even better place to hide stuff. Especially if everyone goes down the obvious line of reasoning you put in your message: since everyone knows about Groom, the "real" secret base must be located somewhere else. -- Rich - -- http://www.xmission.com/~legalize Legalize Adulthood in Utah! legalize@xmission.com ------------------------------ From: tim@umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Incident at Boscombe > Something I heard over the weekend: > > Last week (possibly Friday) someone was passing A&AEE Boscombe Down when they > saw what appeared to be an aircraft sitting on the runway. It had obviously > had an accident and was covered with a black tarpaulin and surrounded by crash > vehicles. Hours later, a C-5 arrived and carted this thing off to Palmdale. The thing that immediately got my curiosity is how your source knew it was going to Palmdale... > Something strange being tested at Boscombe?? If it was American then why > would they want to bring it to the UK for tests?, do we have some facilities > that they don't have? I guess my only answer to this would be that perhaps it is incorrect to assume that the item was still in an initial testing phase. > Ali Henderson. > ceeamh@cee.hw.ac.uk - -- Tim Tyler Internet: tim@ais.org Packet: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA P.O. Box 443 C$erve:72571,1005 GEnie: T.Tyler5 AOL: Hooligan MCI: 442-5735 Ypsilanti MI 48197 This product was not tested on any animals. ------------------------------ From: shooter@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Shooter) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 94 15:06:30 EST Subject: USAF ADMITS TO GROOM LAKE Just got the Oct. 3 issue of Aviation Week: "Groom Lake Exists: USAF" (p.31) Los Angeles - The US Air Force has quietly changed its tune on Groom Lake, the secret Nevada base where CIA and USAF aircraft such as the U-2, A-12, D-21, SR-71 and F-117 were developed. The 40-year-old base has not officially existed despite much publicity. As recently as early August, the Air Force would only say there was a dry lakebed called Groom Lake on the Nellis AFB complex. But in mid-August, the service gave the following response: "We do have facilities within the complex near the dry lakebed of Groom Lake. The facilities of the Nellis Range complex are used for testing and training technologies, operations and systems critical to the effectiveness of US military forces. Specific activities conducted at Nellis cannot be discussed any further than that." The change apparently was made at least three to six months ago, but Air Force information officers only learned about it in August - after a lawsuit charged that hazardous materials were handled improperly there. reprinted w/o permission, etc. etc. Enjoy! Shooter ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: PS Interview with Ben Rich Yep, I'm here, just swamped... 1800 messages in my inbox, thanks to school starting up. Bleah. 8) kean Kean Stump Information Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. (503)-737-4740 ------------------------------ From: Jason Duncan Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 01:18:30 +0100 Subject: Re: X-32 On Sun, 2 Oct 1994, Shooter wrote: > Oh - one more thing. > > For a better idea of what the X-32 looks like, take a peek at the plane > on the cover of Stephen Coonts' "Minotaur." That's almost exactly it. > > MW > Shit! I read that book a while ago.. thats a GREAT book.... (wheres my copy......) ------------------------------ From: Jason Duncan Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 01:22:57 +0100 Subject: Re: (I) X-33, too On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, George Allegrezza 03-Oct-1994 0734 wrote: > I understand the DARPA/USAF SSTO demonstrator, formerly the SX-2, has been > assigned the X-33 designation. > Is this the 'Delta Clipper' ? ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 06:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SENIOR programs Thanks to an 'anonymous but well informed source', here is an updated and corrected list of SENIOR programs. I am also working on an updated list of all the interesting US projects, missions, and code names, which I will soon repost. SENIOR (USAF reconnaissance or stealth related aircraft / systems ?): - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Senior Blade ==> ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Book ==> U-2R for (remote controlled) COMINT, flying 'outside' of the PRC, from OL-20, 1970s/80s Senior Bowl ==> D-21 reconnaissance drone (ELINT/SIGINT/PHOTINT) Senior Citizen ==> Tactical transport aircraft Senior Crown ==> SR-71 PHOTINT/SIGINT reconnaissance aircraft Senior Dance ==> Older ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Glass ==> ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Hunter ==> C-130 support aircraft for EC-130E Volant Solo Senior Ice ==> B-2 (ATB) stealth bomber (Northrop) Senior Jump ==> U-2 ELINT/SIGINT program, related to Senior Book Senior Lance ==> U-2R with Goodyear SAR in inflatable dome Senior Open ==> U-2R with rotating LOROP camera nose system Senior Prom ==> Cancelled stealthy cruise missile (?) Senior Ruby ==> U-2R with E-Systems ELINT/SIGINT gear Senior Saber ==> ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Scout ==> ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Shuffle ==> ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Sky ==> F-22 (ATF) stealthy fighter Senior Smart ==> ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Span ==> U-2R 'C-Span III' with satellite data link Senior Spear ==> U-2R with ELINT/SIGINT pods, 1980s program, (at least 4 different: Phase I, II, III, IV) Senior Spur ==> ELINT/SIGINT program (U-2 ?) Senior Stretch ==> U-2R with ELINT/SIGINT program (pods) Senior Trend ==> F-117A stealthy attack aircraft Senior Year ==> SYPO (Senior Year Projects Office), located at Warner-Robbins AFB, GA, (oversees all SENIOR programs, not all are on aircraft; the U-2 main logistics support depot is also at Warner-Robbins) Any additional information is welcome. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Satsuki Devine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:19:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SR-71 coming back? I am in need of any information relating to the SR-71's possible reintroduction into the USAF active inventory. I recently read in a local newspaper that Congress has appropriated 100 million dollars for this project. Any ideas? Awhile back someone also posted an elaborately detailed list of the various SR-71 tail numbers and what had become of them. Could someone either email this to me or post it again to rec.a.m? Finally, does anyone have particulars on the navigation system that the SR-71 used to utilize (I seem to recall it being a stellar inertial Northrop system)? From the newspaper clipping it seems as though the Air Force doesn't desire to have the aircraft back? Any ideas why (besides costs)? Many, many thanks, Bob Devine ------------------------------ From: Alistair M Henderson Date: Tue, 04 Oct 94 13:14:59 BST Subject: Re: Incident at Boscombe >> Something I heard over the weekend: >> >> Last week (possibly Friday) someone was passing A&AEE Boscombe Down when they >> saw what appeared to be an aircraft sitting on the runway. It had obviously >> had an accident and was covered with a black tarpaulin and surrounded by crash >> vehicles. Hours later, a C-5 arrived and carted this thing off to Palmdale. > The thing that immediately got my curiosity is how your source knew it >was going to Palmdale... That sort of thing wouldn't be difficult to find out. When aircraft call up Shanwick for the Atlantic crossing clearance they are usually required to give their departure and destination airfields. Alternatively, it could have been tracked on HF talking to a command post. **************************************************************************** Ali Henderson. Computer Science II Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh, Scotland. Email: ceeamh@cee.hw.ac.uk } or ceeamh@caledonia.hw.ac.uk } If these don't work, give up :-) or ceeamh@vaxa.hw.ac.uk } "You can't run away for ever, but there's nothing wrong with getting a good head start..." **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Adrian Thurlow Date: Tue, 4 Oct 94 16:13:55 +0100 Subject: RAF Woodbridge Alistair M Henderson writes in reply to Adrian Thurlow Subject: Re: RAF Mildenhall, Woodbridge and Bentwaters >>The RAF is withdrawing from the bases used by the Harrier squadrons in Germany, perhaps Woodbridge is their future home.<< >I don't think that this is likely. When the USAF moved out, a lot of the equipment such as runway lighting and electronic gear was removed by the RAF for use elsewhere. This is why that exercise was held there, to give the squadrons experience in operating from a 'bare base'. It would probably be too expensive to re-equip the place with all the necessary gear.< This is not so. The approach lighting is still in place and the cost of removing the ground lights would have made this work not worthwhile. I can not comment on the electronic systems but they are likely, by their very nature to have been more mobile. By the way all of the above applies to Bentwaters as well. Regards Adrian Thurlow Technology Integration BT Labs Martlesham Heath Ipswich Suffolk U.K. Tel. +44 1473 644880 Fax. +44 1473 646534 e-mail. Adrian.Thurlow@bt-sys.bt.co.uk The views expressed above are not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: Christopher Zguris <0004854540@mcimail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 94 11:13 EST Subject: Ben Rich's SKUNK WORKS For any of you in the area, Strand Books in New York City has SKUNK WORKS for half price ($12.50, plus tax) in the basement in the Review Copies section. I picked up my copy today and they had about 12 left so if you're in the area, hurry. On that subject, are there any other upcoming skunk-works-related or cold war history books coming out? Strand has new releases by author, not subject. Chris ------------------------------ From: russellk@BIX.com Date: Tue, 04 Oct 1994 14:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #161 >Last week (possibly Friday) someone was passing A&AEE Boscombe Down when >they >saw what appeared to be an aircraft sitting on the runway. It had >obviously >had an accident and was covered with a black tarpaulin and surrounded by >crash >vehicles. Hours later, a C-5 arrived and carted this thing off to >Palmdale. > >Something strange being tested at Boscombe?? If it was American then why >would they want to bring it to the UK for tests?, do we have some >facilities >that they don't have? > Clearly an extraterrestrial UFO with the bodies of little green men with big eyes strewn all around ... Palmdale was obviously a fake destination; almost certainly on their way to wherever they put the Roswell NM pieces ..... ;-) ============================================== Russell Kay, Technical Editor, BYTE Magazine 1 Phoenix Mill Lane 603-924-2591 Peterborough, NH 03458 fax 603-924-2550 ============= russellk@bix.com =============== ------------------------------ From: phil@sonosam.wisdom.bubble.org (Phil Verdieck ) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Toshiba/USSR subs, etc. > Toshiba shipped CNC machines that, it was felt, would allow the USSR to nake > quieter sub propellors. The exact, sophisticated shaping is critical to > quietness, amongst other things, supprissing cavitaion, the formation of > micro bubbles due to localized pressure reduction. > > Speculation on: > The CNC machine is just a tool. WOnder where the Russians got the > design techniques? Internally developed? > The other half of the furor over the technology transfer was, I believe the Norwegians. They sold the Russians a sophisticated enough computer, and possibly the design software, to shape the better props with the new milling equipment. Re: Rochester company - Eastman Kodak?????? Phil V. ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 06-Oct-1994 1230 Date: Thu, 6 Oct 94 12:43:02 EDT Subject: Re: Air International TR-3A Article Re: the David Baker article on "Wizard Wars", Larry Smith writes: >Baker does something that I HATE, he gives NO indication of where he gets >his stuff. I realize that if one has sources that need to remain secret, >you can't give their names, but at least he could do what AW&ST does >in that case - which is to say "an industry source", or "a source >familiar with testing in Nevada ...", something, ANYTHING, >would help! Of course it needs to be true! >As it is, some of his stuff looks like it came from AW&ST and other >parts of it look like it came from AIAA papers, and yet some of it >is new. But I don't believe stuff that comes out of the blue with >no references, you shouldn't either! Agreed. It would be useful if he specified if the hypersonic concepts were from Copper Canyon, the NASP Derived Vehicles study, the Orbit-on-Demand study, (all of which were quasi-unclassified) or some other exercise. >Who is this Baker guy anyway? If it's the same Dr. David Baker I'm thinking of, he's done a few books on Spaceflight, including the very extensive "History of Manned Spaceflight" and "History of Rockets and Missiles," as well as a book from the early '80s on SDI. Also, he did an article with Robert Zubrin in Analog, back in '92 or so, on Mars Direct (Rev. A). He's written for AI in the past. Baker resurrects the Mach 8 external burning super RPV that was "illustrated" in the 10/1/90 AW&ST article, with a few refinements. In fact, much of the technical material seemed to be derived from AW&ST black airplane reporting from 1990-92, not to mention the AW&ST article on PDWEs that Larry contributed to. He also makes a statement that a detachment of PDWE vehicles will become operational at Beale under the 2nd AF in late 94-early 95. As Larry noted, there's no source given for this statement. Negatives aside, the article is certainly worth reading, and there is a nice Mike Badrocke rendering of the Mach 8 vehicle. George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "Because I'm your father and I said Littleton MA USA | so, that's why." allegrezza@tnpubs.enet.dec.com | -- me ------------------------------ From: Gavin Ray Durman Date: Thu, 06 Oct 1994 15:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: subs/Toshiba/Norway/Eastman? I seem to remember a few years ago that Eastman, because of their plants in China, worked out a deal to sell the Chinese some "old-tech" milling machines. They had a fit when the Chinese government sent people with photographic memories on a "friendship tour" of some Eastman location including, of course, their new milling machines, which suddenly the old ones grew to resemble. It's amazing how our technology seems to slip from our fingers like sand. I wonder if we'll next let the Japanese or Europeans in on our stealth tech.? Gavin Durman P.S. I've seen the planes and a hovercraft with some form of stealth (or appearance of stealth), and heard of a ship and cruise missle being experimented on as well, but does anyone have a list of all the ways stealth tech. is being adapted? ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Fri, 7 Oct 94 03:05:18 PDT Subject: Air Force thoughts on FOIA As a regular user of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), I thought it would be interesting to see how the Air Force views people who try to find out details about classified programs through FOIA. I requested the case files on 7 of my FOIA requests that are currently going through administrative appeals. Along with material I had seen before, several censored Air Force memos from Colonel Richard Weaver to the Air Force Legal Services Agency were released. Here's what Colonel Weaver had to say: (on a request for a summary of current test programs at Groom Lake): "His appeal 'justification' is the standard [blacked out] provided by almost everyone else who makes similar requests for this information. All have been turned down... Recommend his appeal be denied." (on my citing Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 of the U.S. Constitution as part of another appeal as a reason for releasing the requested material): "Mr. McGinnis' rationale that he somehow should be allowed to perform those oversight functions of Congress, while novel, is not compelling." Col. Weaver worked for Secretary of the Air Force Sheila Widnall as the "point man" (SAF/AAZ is the Air Force designation) for FOIA requests on classified programs. He has recently been replaced in this position by Lt. Colonel Leonard Patterson. I have actually exchanged personal letters with Col. Weaver -- basically, I think he is still fighting the Cold War, even though the U.S. won. Col. Weaver apparently went on to fame and fortune as the author of the Air Force's recent report on the Roswell incident. Oddly enough, I agree with his conclusions in that report, that Roswell was a crashed balloon that was part of the formerly secret Project Mogul designed to detect Soviet nuclear tests. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcg@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Scott E Lowther Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 14:59:34 CDT Subject: Aurora, TR-3A, X-32, aeroballistic rocket Hello. I've just signed onto the skunk works list, and am looking for information (surprise!). Being a college student (Aero E - pity me), I'm always short on cash; so I run a small business making polyester resin model kits. I've started work on a 1/144 scale Aurora (Based on drawings in the book of the same name), and would like to do the others listed in the subject line. Is there halfway reliable info on these aircraft available? I checked at harbor.ecn.purdue.edu, but there was no skunk-works directory listed under pub. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #162 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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