From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #165 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 11 November 1994 Volume 05 : Number 165 In this issue: Re: Black balloons Balloons in the northern skies F-117 question Re: The Edwards AFB museum Re: Black balloons Re: F-117 question Re: More Black Balloons Still more Black Balloons EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Project Oxcart Re: Project Oxcart eb's (not an eb-52, but eb-47's Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Re: Project Oxcart Re: Project Oxcart OXCART Re: Project Oxcart See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 10:19:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Black balloons >Two questions: >- were there other "black" lighter-than-air projects at that time ? > In particular, were there top secret balloons with crews ? I don't know the actual date of this program, but I have the book written by the guy who actually flew the program, in my collection somewhere (give me a few more days and I'll be able to find it). There was a program called MAN HIGH, which actually flew a man to an altitude of 100,000 ft or so, in a gondola attached to a balloon. If I recall correctly, the goal was to test theories of man's physiology at high altitudes. In fact, I believe the MAN HIGH crewman was a USAF flight surgeon. The Army was interested at one time in moving troops via rocket, and the successful MAN HIGH program evolved into a U.S. Army proposal to use the gondola design of MAN HIGH as the payload of an actual rocket. This later program was known as ADAM. ADAM's goal was to send a man into a suborbital flight and recover him after spashdown in the ocean, as I said above, using essentially the gondola design from MAN HIGH. The suborbital flight was to be boosted by a Redstone rocket. The ADAM program of course never happened and Project Mercury happened instead. I think ADAM was cancelled in 1959 (I don't have the data in front of me). There is a nice 2-page writeup on ADAM in the latest issue of QUEST magazine. Larry ------------------------------ From: "JOE P." Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 15:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Balloons in the northern skies All this talk of balloons and fighter intercepts and spy stuff force me to reveal a non-classified secret dating from 1967-68 time slot. At the time I was stationed at Hofn AFS Iceland. It is located on the south eastern coast of Iceland and was the easternmost site of the Distant Early Warning radar chain. Its purpose was to detect Soviet bombers coming from Murmansk/Archangel areas of the arctic. What was a little unusual about this site was that it was located on the Altlantic coast, right at sea level (We could even see the waves breaking on the beach.) As you know, most radar is line of sight (excluding over the horizon and such). We were L and S band (definite LOS). Directly to the north of us was located a LARGE mountain, several hundred or maybe even a couple thousand feet high. This gave us a "dead spot" of about 60 or 70 degrees on our northern side. We never painted anything in that area since things were close enouugh to lose in ground clutter unless they were pretty darn high up. I should not say "never" since, to quote Paul Harvey, this is the rest of the story. One day we did indeed have a target paint in this dead area. It had an altitude of about 80,000 feet and an airspeed of 15 (yes, that is not a typo, fifteen) mph. It was not a particularly strong paint but it was detectable. I do not recall the range exactly but it was more than 50 and less than 250 miles out. Some F-102s were scrambled from Keflavik to do an "intercept". This was a fairly routine activity around there. Most every week we would have two or three unidentified paints with out any flight plans filed so out go the "Dueces". It was virtually always Bear Bombers doing a shuttle down the coast of the US to Cuba and a return the next day. (A lot of those pictures which used to adorn the front pages of newspapers showing "Russian Bombers approach the U.S. were shot from these "Dueces".) The F-102s sent to id our mystery target had trouble locking on either visually or radar untill one brave soul finally put his plane into a dive and climb with full afterburners and shot over the top to try to get a look. When he went over the top he finally managed to get a quick peek at what was reported as a "weather ballon". Subsequent back tracking showed it was launched somewhere in either Alaska or norther Canada as we were told. We tracked it for a few hours and then it just kind of got lost off the scope. I don't know if it dropped, drifted out of range, lost it radar reflection or just what. The pilot who saw it had to declare a fuel emergency and make an emergency landing at Kef. We had no mid-air refueling capability. He landed safely. So at least one balloon did go over the arctic in the late 60's. I have no way of knowing if it was pure weather, weather & black, pure black, or just some other "flight of fancy". Direct from the halls of Edinboro University - (814) 732-2484 and directly from the terminal of, - 142 Miller Bldg. - Edinboro Univ. Joe Pyrdek pyrdek@vax.edinboro.edu - Edinboro PA 16444 ------------------------------ From: shinman@thomas.com (Sterling Hinman) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 15:45:29 PST Subject: F-117 question Hello all; I went to the Edwards AFB airshow in October, and recently had my pictures developed and noticed something kind of odd. Part of the show had a couple of Edwards Flight Test F-117's taxi up pretty close to the crowd line and park, and being a semi-skunker, I was front and center with my camera ready. What I noticed in the pictures was that when the two aircraft opened their canopies, one of them had the usual triangular "teeth" on the front edge of the canopy, while the other had a straight edge with no teeth. Are these teeth some type of removable RAM tile that were missing, or are they maybe testing a new canopy configuration of some sort? Just curious. By the way, there was a thread about the F-20 the other day - the Los Angeles Musuem of Science and Industry's Aerospace building does in fact have one, I believe it is the number three bird, painted in the dark gray scheme with "Tigershark" on each side of the nose in white. Neat plane Regards - -Sterling H. ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 19:04:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: The Edwards AFB museum The museum is always "open"--they've got a clump of aircraft sitting out beside the road and you can stop any time and look at them. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: Geoff.Miller@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:08:11 +0800 Subject: Re: Black balloons The National Geographic had an article about Man High at some point during the early Sixties, in case anyone is interested enough to look it up. The gondola actually held two men, not one. And that's about all I remember. - --Geoff ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 22:14:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: F-117 question Remember that Edwards has some of the pre-production aircraft. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Wed, 9 Nov 1994, Sterling Hinman wrote: > Hello all; > > I went to the Edwards AFB airshow in October, and recently had my pictures > developed and noticed something kind of odd. Part of the show had a couple > of Edwards Flight Test F-117's taxi up pretty close to the crowd line and park, > and being a semi-skunker, I was front and center with my camera ready. What > I noticed in the pictures was that when the two aircraft opened their canopies, > one of them had the usual triangular "teeth" on the front edge of the canopy, > while the other had a straight edge with no teeth. Are these teeth some > type of removable RAM tile that were missing, or are they maybe testing a new > canopy configuration of some sort? Just curious. > > By the way, there was a thread about the F-20 the other day - the Los Angeles > Musuem of Science and Industry's Aerospace building does in fact have one, > I believe it is the number three bird, painted in the dark gray scheme with > "Tigershark" on each side of the nose in white. Neat plane > > Regards > > -Sterling H. ------------------------------ From: Marc Studer Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 00:55:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: More Black Balloons I remeber seeing a whole spread on various ballon projects in the issue of National Geographic that covered crossing of the Atlantic by Double Eagle two, a privatly funded balloon. One of the drawings shows a gondala with two crew members inside and the blurb mentioned that the show was run by the Air Force and that it ended when one of the crew drowned durring a water landing. I'd like to say this was skyhook, but I can't be sure. Not Skunky, but . . . Also read a Popular Mechanics article about Groom lake that speculated that the Air Force was using lighter than air technology for recon. Would that work? Make the envelope out of the right material and fly it slow enough . . . Marc ------------------------------ From: Jay.Waller@analog.com Date: Thursday, 10 November 1994 11:25am ET Subject: Still more Black Balloons I remember an article a few years ago in either Pop. Mech. or Pop. Science on Black Aircraft that may be along this line. It mentioned reports of a VERY large,slow moving aircraft seen near Groom Lake. From what I can remember,it said it had randomly placed lights (to simulate stars ?) and made no noise. Does anyone remember this or have any speculation to what the purpose of such a craft could be ? It sounds pretty far out to me. *************** All opinions are my own , no one else wants them ************ ------------------------------ From: "Edward G. Hopper" Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 16:48:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Okay people I got the bug again! All information and technical specs for this updated Buff and where abouts would be appreciated. Mary this bird may have passed thru the hanger own your side. thanks Edward ------------------------------ From: Gerald.Welch@Corp.Sun.COM (Gerald Welch) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:12:35 -0800 Subject: Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS I thought the EB-52 was a fictional aircraft found only in Dale Brown novels. How many of them are there? Is the real aircraft as formidable as the Old Dog in Dale Brown's novel "Day of the Cheetah" ? - -Jerry - ----- Begin Included Message ----- From skunk-works-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Thu Nov 10 15:08 PST 1994 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 16:48:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Edward G. Hopper" Subject: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS To: Skunk-works@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Cc: Hopper@ebs330.eb.uah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: skunk-works-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 343 Okay people I got the bug again! All information and technical specs for this updated Buff and where abouts would be appreciated. Mary this bird may have passed thru the hanger own your side. thanks Edward - ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 22:15:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Once upon a time Edward G. Hopper shaped the electrons to say... > Okay people I got the bug again! All information and technical specs for >this updated Buff and where abouts would be appreciated. Mary this bird >may have passed thru the hanger own your side. This guy CAN'T be serious right? I mean, how can anyone believe that stupid idea of Dale Brown's was a REAL aircraft. Just read the description, that should be enough to tell you it is a silly plot device. - -- megazone@world.std.com megazone@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164 "I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!" Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories Geek Code 2.1: GTW/H d-- H+>++ s++:++ !g p? au+ a23 w+@ v+@>++ C++(++++) UU+>UL++++ P+ L>++ 3 E N+++ K+++ W-- M-- V-- -po+ Y+>++ t+@ 5@ j@ R@ G' tv@ b++(+++) D+>++ B--- e++ u** h- f+ r++ n+(----) y+(*) ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 22:17:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Once upon a time Gerald Welch shaped the electrons to say... >I thought the EB-52 was a fictional aircraft found only in Dale >Brown novels. How many of them are there? Is the real aircraft >as formidable as the Old Dog in Dale Brown's novel "Day of the Are you two a team? Yes, it is just a fictional aircraft. The idea of a stealth B-52 is LUDICROUS! And the way Brown describes it the EB-52 would NOT be a stealth aircraft anyway. He doesn't know the first thing about stealth design, he just makes it all up. The EB-52 is silly and pointless, and FICTIONAL. It is a BAD design to start with if you are practical at all. I've had hours of fun ripping apart the idea with other airfans. - -- megazone@world.std.com megazone@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164 "I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!" Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories Geek Code 2.1: GTW/H d-- H+>++ s++:++ !g p? au+ a23 w+@ v+@>++ C++(++++) UU+>UL++++ P+ L>++ 3 E N+++ K+++ W-- M-- V-- -po+ Y+>++ t+@ 5@ j@ R@ G' tv@ b++(+++) D+>++ B--- e++ u** h- f+ r++ n+(----) y+(*) ------------------------------ From: DWalizer@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 23:43:08 -0500 Subject: Project Oxcart In the November issue of "Air Force" Magazine is an interesting article on the CIA A-12 program (A-11,YF-12, SR-71). The article is condensed from a secret study of the A-12 program that was first published in the Winter 1970-71 issue of "Studies in Intelligence", a classified internal publication of the CIA. It was written by CIA analysts under the collective pseudonym "THomas P. McIninch". The document was recently declassifed. Anybody have any idea how to go about getting the original report? ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 94 4:27:32 EST Subject: Re: Project Oxcart > From: DWalizer@aol.com > In the November issue of "Air Force" Magazine is an interesting article on > the CIA A-12 program (A-11,YF-12, SR-71). The article is condensed from a > secret study of the A-12 program that was first published in the Winter > 1970-71 issue of "Studies in Intelligence", a classified internal publication ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ > of the CIA. It was written by CIA analysts under the collective pseudonym > "THomas P. McIninch". The document was recently declassifed. Anybody have > any idea how to go about getting the original report? > A classified publication??!? I think that rates right up there with the words Military Intelligence :-) - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ From: "Frank Schiffel, Jr." Date: Fri, 11 Nov 94 09:37:52 CST Subject: eb's (not an eb-52, but eb-47's ok, so an EB-52 as written by Dale Brown pretty much was a fun read. though the B-1 was really under played. question, with the EB-47, EB-57 and all the other ELINT bomber variants, was there ever a consideration to produce an ELINT B-52? Seems it would be a decent ELINT platform for flying along the borders of a hostile nation. If nothing else, the electronic guys would have had a lot more room than they did in the EB-47 (there were 3 people in that bomb bay area). Or did the C-135 really preclude this option of bomber conversions as a much better platform. In any case (here's the sales pitch, nothing is free)...I'm working on a political science article (yeah, thats what the PhD study is for) on the retirement of the SR-71 and the satellite systems that were to replace it. This being a Skunk works list, I'm in favor of the manned, aerial platform. Its more versatile. I'd be interested in unclassified comments on this area. If there's an interest, I'll post or share my list of sources on this work. I've seen some material that there was an interest in bringing back the Blackbird in Desert Storm as there was a need for good BDA, but as the retirement was a political decision, we used U-2s, RF-4s, and anything else we could hang a recon pod on. thanks in advance, Frank ------------------------------ From: Gerald.Welch@Corp.Sun.COM (Gerald Welch) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 07:57:59 -0800 Subject: Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS Well, that proves it then. I only half beleived it before, but you're emphatic denial only proves that the EB-52 is a reality. It's clearly a black book project that is highly secretive. Just kidding, ofcourse. Thanks for the scoop. - -Jerry - ----- Begin Included Message ----- From megazone@world.std.com Thu Nov 10 19:20 PST 1994 From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Subject: Re: EB-52 MEGAFORTRESS To: Gerald.Welch@Corp (Gerald Welch) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 22:17:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: Skunk-works@gaia.ucs.orst.edu, hopper@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, Gerald.Welch@Corp X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 1157 Once upon a time Gerald Welch shaped the electrons to say... >I thought the EB-52 was a fictional aircraft found only in Dale >Brown novels. How many of them are there? Is the real aircraft >as formidable as the Old Dog in Dale Brown's novel "Day of the Are you two a team? Yes, it is just a fictional aircraft. The idea of a stealth B-52 is LUDICROUS! And the way Brown describes it the EB-52 would NOT be a stealth aircraft anyway. He doesn't know the first thing about stealth design, he just makes it all up. The EB-52 is silly and pointless, and FICTIONAL. It is a BAD design to start with if you are practical at all. I've had hours of fun ripping apart the idea with other airfans. - -- megazone@world.std.com megazone@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164 "I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!" Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories Geek Code 2.1: GTW/H d-- H+>++ s++:++ !g p? au+ a23 w+@ v+@>++ C++(++++) UU+>UL++++ P+ L>++ 3 E N+++ K+++ W-- M-- V-- -po+ Y+>++ t+@ 5@ j@ R@ G' tv@ b++(+++) D+>++ B--- e++ u** h- f+ r++ n+(----) y+(*) - ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ From: Steve Birmingham Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:08:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Project Oxcart I think I saw this some years ago...I remember the "collective Pseudonym." I'll search through my stuff this weekend, and if I do find it, I will notify the list. I don't know if posting it directly is a good idea...as I recall, it was pretty lengthy. Regards, Steve Birmingham E-mail: smb@odo.cypress.ca.us Phone: (714) 826-4433 "I know what time is, but if someone asks me, I cannot tell them." - Augustine of Hippo, Philosopher, 500 AD On Thu, 10 Nov 1994 DWalizer@aol.com wrote: > In the November issue of "Air Force" Magazine is an interesting article on > the CIA A-12 program (A-11,YF-12, SR-71). The article is condensed from a > secret study of the A-12 program that was first published in the Winter > 1970-71 issue of "Studies in Intelligence", a classified internal publication > of the CIA. It was written by CIA analysts under the collective pseudonym > "THomas P. McIninch". The document was recently declassifed. Anybody have > any idea how to go about getting the original report? > ------------------------------ From: William Carroll Date: Fri, 11 Nov 94 13:04:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Project Oxcart > > In the November issue of "Air Force" Magazine is an interesting article on > the CIA A-12 program (A-11,YF-12, SR-71). The article is condensed from a > secret study of the A-12 program that was first published in the Winter > 1970-71 issue of "Studies in Intelligence", a classified internal publication > of the CIA. It was written by CIA analysts under the collective pseudonym > "THomas P. McIninch". The document was recently declassifed. Anybody have > any idea how to go about getting the original report? It was posted to this list (in several parts) in November 1991 by larry@ichips.intel.com. I would think it would be in the list archives. - -- William R. Carroll wcarroll@encore.com Have an out of car experience. Walk and bike, feel the wind, meet friends, see wildlife, and be part of nature. Cycling in South FL? CycleMobility can help. cycle@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ------------------------------ From: ron@habu.stortek.com (Ron Schweikert) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 94 11:32:58 MST Subject: OXCART I've got it on-line presently if anyone wants it rather than digging out of the archives. Just send me email. Cheers! Ron ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:56:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Project Oxcart From: DWalizer@aol.com >In the November issue of "Air Force" Magazine is an interesting article on >the CIA A-12 program (A-11,YF-12, SR-71). The article is condensed from a >secret study of the A-12 program that was first published in the Winter >1970-71 issue of "Studies in Intelligence", a classified internal publication >of the CIA. It was written by CIA analysts under the collective pseudonym >"THomas P. McIninch". The document was recently declassifed. Anybody have >any idea how to go about getting the original report? Cool! Hey, this may settle the debate that raged here and on other Net groups back in 1991 when I posted the THE OXCART STORY by McInInch (humorous name!). When you read the document, it definitely is written from the CIA perspective, and I had mentioned that I would suspect that it was a CIA document. That started a FIRESTORM of a debate of sorts. There was even a a guy who called my source of the document to argue with them that it WASN'T a CIA document! This 'person' worked very hard it seems to convince people that it wasn't a CIA document. A few years after the fact I learned just how hard this guy worked as I met people who he had called on the phone during that time! This all prompted me to ask Ben Rich, when I happened to meet him in person sometime later, if THE OXCART STORY was genuine and if it was written by a CIA person. He confirmed the genuine nature of the document and also confirmed the CIA was the source of the document. We even had a gentleman who used to work the OXCART program, and who still worked at Lockheed, and who happened to hear about our plight, and the fact that this 'person' was trying to shoot the document down, jump onto the skunk-works list and really chew out this negative person. Our Lockheed 'angel' couldn't confirm the genuine nature of the document, but he said there seemed to be correct information in the document. It was an exciting time for all of us! Some of my NASA contacts also confirmed the 'official' nature of the document by telling me they had been given access to it some time before, when it was classified. Since then I've even had one SR-71 driver tell me that he was allowed to read the document at one time in a security vault! So I suspected after some time that it was the real McCoy! I've even had an opportunity to ask Ben Rich about it one more time, and he confirmed it's genuine nature again. Steve Birmingham writes: >I think I saw this some years ago...I remember the "collective >Pseudonym." I'll search through my stuff this weekend, and if I do find >it, I will notify the list. I don't know if posting it directly is a >good idea...as I recall, it was pretty lengthy. Yes, I posted it in 25 installments. By the way, THE OXCART STORY came from a larger document, the rest of which, at the time, remained classified. William R. Carroll writes: >It was posted to this list (in several parts) in November 1991 by >larry@ichips.intel.com. I would think it would be in the list archives. Thanks for remembering! yes. I still have all the installments, plus a concatenated total document, that indicates 96547 bytes in my directory. Larry ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #165 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).