From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #168 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 1 December 1994 Volume 05 : Number 168 In this issue: Re: eb's (not an eb-52, but RE: Skunk Works Digest V5 #166 Re: Oxcart Story T1 link to ftp.orst.edu down Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #166 Active impedence Re: Active impedence active sonar measures Nellis AFB Open House Sunday Re: Active impedence MHD drives Re: Active impedence MHD drives Ballons & MHD More MHD Drives Redundent MHD post Re: Active impedence Re: Active impedence Where is everyone?? [none] DoD See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Scheeweis Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:42:56 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: eb's (not an eb-52, but ELECTRONIC INTELLIGENCE!!!! On 14 Nov 1994, Christian Jacobsen wrote: > Subject: Time:8:42 AM > OFFICE MEMO RE>eb's (not an eb-52, but eb-47's Date:11/14/94 > > OK. I hate to be a Newbie(tm), but I have to ask. > > What does "ELINT" stand for? > > Flame away, I've got my flame suit on...but I have been reading for several > months now and I have seen ELINT hundreds of times, and no one ever spelled it > out... > > 'preciate the help, > - Christian > > -------------------------------------- > Date: 11/11/94 9:47 AM > To: Christian Jacobsen > From: Frank Schiffel, Jr. > ok, so an EB-52 as written by Dale Brown pretty much was a fun read. > though the B-1 was really under played. > > question, with the EB-47, EB-57 and all the other ELINT bomber variants, > was there ever a consideration to produce an ELINT B-52? Seems it would > be a decent ELINT platform for flying along the borders of a hostile > nation. If nothing else, the electronic guys would have had a lot more > room than they did in the EB-47 (there were 3 people in that bomb bay > area). > > Or did the C-135 really preclude this option of bomber conversions as > a much better platform. > > In any case (here's the sales pitch, nothing is free)...I'm working on > a political science article (yeah, thats what the PhD study is for) on > the retirement of the SR-71 and the satellite systems that were to replace > it. This being a Skunk works list, I'm in favor of the manned, aerial > platform. Its more versatile. > > I'd be interested in unclassified comments on this area. If there's an > interest, I'll post or share my list of sources on this work. I've seen > some material that there was an interest in bringing back the Blackbird in > Desert Storm as there was a need for good BDA, but as the retirement was a > political decision, we used U-2s, RF-4s, and anything else we could hang > a recon pod on. > > thanks in advance, > > Frank > > ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ > Received: by qmgate.arc.nasa.gov with SMTP;11 Nov 1994 09:46:34 U > Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id > HAA14861 for skunk-works-outgoing; Fri, 11 Nov 1994 07:50:45 -0800 > Received: from MIZZOU1.missouri.edu ([128.206.5.3]) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu > (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id HAA14853 for ; > Fri, 11 Nov 1994 07:50:41 -0800 > Message-Id: <199411111550.HAA14853@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> > Received: from MIZZOU1 by MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with BSMTP id 8616; Fri, 11 Nov 94 09:48:23 CST > Received: from MIZZOU1 (C626283) by MIZZOU1 (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP > id > 0975; Fri, 11 Nov 94 09:46:34 CST > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 94 09:37:52 CST > From: "Frank Schiffel, Jr." > Subject: eb's (not an eb-52, but eb-47's > To: skunk-works@gaia.ucs.orst.edu > X-Acknowledge-To: > Sender: skunk-works-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu > Precedence: bulk > > > > ------------------------------ From: SMPOD@MARS.LERC.NASA.GOV Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 8:53:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Skunk Works Digest V5 #166 >Subject: trip report-ARPA symposium >by Paul McGinnis, November 13, 1994 ... >It was an odd experience, being in "the belly of the beast" amongst all the >people in expensive suits. Like other subcultures, they have a jargon all >their own -- "leverage" and "paradigm shift" seem to be ARPA's favorite >buzzwords. These buzzwords are used throughout government and business. It's as if one mentions these words, change will occur magically. They remind me of incantations. >These people don't see the threat to the United States in realistic terms. They >seem to have the view that if the U.S. has a particular advanced weapon system, >so will every other country. Why give other nations a jump start on technology if it may end up in Iraq, Iran, North Korea, etc. >I wonder if they think about the damage they've done to national security by >adding at least a trillion dollars to the deficit during the arms build-up of >the 1980s. This build-up cause the crashing down of the Berlin Wall freeing Eastern Europe and the Soviet Empire, reducing dramatically the nuclear threat. >>In some ways, it was like sitting among Pavlov's dogs -- the audience would >start to fall asleep during the presentations, but as soon as ARPA mentioned that they would provide money, the audience would snap to attention. When hundreds of thousands of jobs caused by unhealthy cuts in the defence budgets, this concern for funding is natural. >A MIT study suggested that the U.S. defense could cost $70 billion per year, >>instead of $270 billion per year, if our foreign allies would pay for their own >defense and waste and unnecessary spending were eliminated in the Defense budget. I suspect that much of the waste is due to Congressional micromanagement. >I was disgusted by a conversation during lunch, where people from Boeing and >McDonnell Douglas were moaning about the decline in inflation adjusted dollars >spent on military procurement, and someone said, "What we need is a good war!" Do you thing that he was serious. I doubt it. ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:06:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Oxcart Story There is only one SR-71 simulator. Phil apparently misunderstood, by the way. Joe, the sim engineer, told me that he was asked to give Phil a good show, not an easy one. It sounds like he succeeded. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:29:55 -0800 Subject: T1 link to ftp.orst.edu down Our T1 microwave link to the Internet is down. PACnet is working on the problem, but until it's resolved, our Internet connection is via a completely saturated 56k link. We expect this to be fixed today sometime, but... This affects the Gravis Ultrasound ftp area, the doom ftp area, the gus mailing lists, the skunk-works mailing lists and anything else homed inside orst.edu. Expect *very* slow response time. Kean ------------------------------ From: "Thomas A. Gauldin" Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:13:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #166 In reading the post about new military projects, mention was made of the Navy using "active impedence" to disguise submarines. This brings up a question. In automobiles, progress is being made in creating "negative sound" to cancel out exhaust noise outside the car and to cancel car noises inside the passenger compartment. A microphone (or several mics) listen to the sound of the exhaust, for example, and then an IC produces a signal that is 180 degrees out of phase to the analyzed sound. Speakers then play the out of phase sound into the exhaust stream and the result is "virtual silence" without the restriction found in a conventional muffler. Since the detection of submarines is so heavily dependent on sound- both active and passive sonar, why doesn't the Navy develop a similar system to "hide" its subs. For example, a microphone trailing the sub could pick up the sound of its propeller and speakers could play out of phase sounds to negate the sound of the prop. Is this the technology that is is referred to as "active impedence?" Thomas A. Gauldin Here's to the land of the longleaf pine, Raleigh, NC The summerland where the sun doth shine, BSRB45A on Prodigy Where the weak grow strong and the strong grow great, FAX (919) 676-1404 Here's to Downhome, the Old North State. ------------------------------ From: ron@habu.stortek.com (Ron Schweikert) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 08:05:23 MST Subject: Active impedence >In reading the post about new military projects, mention was made of the >Navy using "active impedence" to disguise submarines. This brings up a >question. > >In automobiles, progress is being made in creating "negative sound" to >cancel out exhaust noise outside the car and to cancel car noises inside >the passenger compartment. munch, munch.. An interesting idea. The technology is already common in aircraft headsets. Haven't had a chance to try one, but all the flying magazines praise them as being highly effective (although currently pretty expensive). Ron ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:04:18 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: Active impedence I would like to jump in to the fray a moment, and give you all something to think about...disinformation.... There is no need for any type of "active impedence" gear if our subs are so quite now, i.e. cavitation, slip, anoechoic (sp) coating interior so as to deaden interior noise, anoechoic thermal coating on the exterior to negate not only noise but heat signatures as well.... John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Ron Schweikert wrote: > > >In reading the post about new military projects, mention was made of the > >Navy using "active impedence" to disguise submarines. This brings up a > >question. > > > >In automobiles, progress is being made in creating "negative sound" to > >cancel out exhaust noise outside the car and to cancel car noises inside > >the passenger compartment. > > munch, munch.. > > An interesting idea. The technology is already common in aircraft > headsets. Haven't had a chance to try one, but all the flying magazines > praise them as being highly effective (although currently pretty > expensive). > > Ron > ------------------------------ From: rh@craycos.com (Robert Herndon) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 15:40:45 MST Subject: active sonar measures John Regus wrote: > I would like to jump in to the fray a moment, and give you all something > to think about...disinformation.... There is no need for any type of > "active impedence" gear if our subs are so quite now, i.e. cavitation, > slip, anoechoic (sp) coating interior so as to deaden interior noise, > anoechoic thermal coating on the exterior to negate not only noise but > heat signatures as well.... Sounds like disinformation to me. :-) Active impedance matching might be useful, even with perfectly quiet subs. A perfectly quiet sub might well be subject of a hunt for many reasons, e.g. torpedo or rocket launch. A sub that absorbs sound perfectly will "make a great big hole in the water" and will (probably) be very difficult to find using active monostatic sonar. A coherent sonar, conceivably, however could locate such a sub. By emitting directional sound beams or bursts, by directional reception (e.g., a small array of reception microphones), or by using multi-static sonar, a very black (acoustically speaking) submarine could be located as literally a hole in the water. (E.g., one would emit a LOT of sonar noise, and listen for echoes from the bottom with several mike arrays. A little computer work would probably show each mike array having a direction from which it doesn't receive echoes. Putting these together would reveal a "dark voxel" that doesn't transmit sound.) Active impedance matching might alleviate this. One would want a perfectly black (again, acoustically speaking) submarine to start with. Microphones and transducers placed appropriately around the outside of the hull could record 'pings' and conceivably repeat them on the other side of the hull. There would be many problems with this -- fooling multi-static systems would be hard, since it is very hard to keep sounds directional. But it might be possible to make such a system work well enough for specific problems. Comments? ------------------------------ From: PsychoSpy@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:32:50 -0500 Subject: Nellis AFB Open House Sunday Nellis Air Force Base in North Las Vegas will be holding its Open House this Sunday, Nov. 20, 1994. The gates open at 10:00am, and the show closes at 4:00pm. The F-117A and B-2 will be on display. Psycho ------------------------------ From: Jason Duncan Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 07:06:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Active impedence On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, John Regus wrote: > I would like to jump in to the fray a moment, and give you all something > to think about...disinformation.... There is no need for any type of > "active impedence" gear if our subs are so quite now, i.e. cavitation, > slip, anoechoic (sp) coating interior so as to deaden interior noise, > anoechoic thermal coating on the exterior to negate not only noise but > heat signatures as well.... > On this subject, I want to bring up the topic of Magneto-Drive propulsion. I have read a little bit about it a few years ago and I recently read a report that said all our newer subs have magneto propulsion... is this the case? ------------------------------ From: JOHN Date: Sat, 19 Nov 94 09:56:55 EST Subject: MHD drives Ron Sez: > On this subject, I want to bring up the topic of Magneto-Drive >propulsion. I have read a little bit about it a few years ago and I >recently read a report that said all our newer subs have magneto >propulsion... is this the case? If they are, they are keeping it a bigger secret than anything else they have ever done. The only vessel, I,ve ever heard of using it, is the Japanese prototype. (can,t remember the name of it off hand.) It was supposed to have worked quite well too. and of course Tom Clancy's Red October once it got to the screen. ( the book still used ducted props ) :-) jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com <<<> DISCLAIMER <<<> (GE and I can,t see eye to eye on anything, so why should I speak for them) ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 14:05:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Active impedence Once upon a time Jason Duncan shaped the electrons to say... >On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, John Regus wrote: >> "active impedence" gear if our subs are so quite now, i.e. cavitation, >> slip, anoechoic (sp) coating interior so as to deaden interior noise, >> anoechoic thermal coating on the exterior to negate not only noise but INternally raft mounts are usually used, with conventional sound deadening. Anechoic tiles on the hull exterior really don't do much for thermal signatures as they will come up to hull/sex interface temperature just as the hull surface would. And the largest heat signature is from the reactor cooling outlet, and you can mask that. > On this subject, I want to bring up the topic of Magneto-Drive >propulsion. I have read a little bit about it a few years ago and I >recently read a report that said all our newer subs have magneto >propulsion... is this the case? As in The Hunt for Red October movie? (The book used impulsers, not magnetohydodynamic drive.) No, the subs do *not* use it. There are many reasons, not the least of which is that generating a magnetic field that can propel a sub will cause any Magnetic Anomoly Gear in the area to *scream* the subs location. MHD is in testing for some applications, but it is really only good for slow speeds. *And* it leaves a trail of ionized seawater, which can also be detected - like a contrail. It also takes a great deal of power, less efficient than mechanical propulsion. New subs use a pumpjet propulsor, which is a ducted propeller basically, designed to improve efficiency and reduce noise. - -- megazone@world.std.com megazone@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164 "I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!" Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories Geek Code 2.1: GTW/H d-- H+>++ s++:++ !g p? au+ a23 w+@ v+@>++ C++(++++) UU+>UL++++ P+ L>++ 3 E N+++ K+++ W-- M-- V-- -po+ Y+>++ t+@ 5@ j@ R@ G' tv@ b++(+++) D+>++ B--- e++ u** h- f+ r++ n+(----) y+(*) ------------------------------ From: JOHN Date: Sat, 19 Nov 94 20:42:46 EST Subject: MHD drives >From:"wizard@sccsi.com" "Stratacom Worldnet" 19-NOV-1994 18:31:56.09 >Subj: Re: MHD drives > >>I think John would know because I recognize the EB net address. hahahaha > >> On this subject, I want to bring up the topic of Magneto-Drive >>propulsion. I have read a little bit about it a few years ago and I >>recently read a report that said all our newer subs have magneto > >******************************************************************** >* John F. Regus | Stratacom Worldnet * >* WUI:REGUSHOU | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING * >******************************************************************** Thanks I,m flattered, but, afraid not, I work for GEA in Louisville.Ky. while I do work in the prototype engineering field, its not in subs. BTW: the name of the Japanese MHD prototype was " YAMATO 1 " (not to be confused with the WWII battleship OR the Starblazers one) :-) jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com <<<> DISCLAIMER <<<> (GE and I can,t see eye to eye on anything, so why should I speak for them) ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 14:32:21 EST Subject: Ballons & MHD On current matters: Look up the speed the MHD/YAMATO achieved. Not high. & someone else already pointed out that MAD would detect & efficiency is poor. Maybe in a few decades, but i doubt it.... Older/Balloons: Was there a black component to Skyhook? Who knows. I have never seen a formal statement that ther was. Skyhook was very high public profile at the time. I suspect that what is now declassified as Moby Dick, etc is the "classified" component, if there is one. Japanese Balloon Bombers: Japan's Baloon Bomb Attacks on North America Robert C Mikesh Smithsonian Institution Press Annals of Flight # 9 No ISBN... In addition (brief) to what was already said: Two styles, one paper (yes....),army, one rubberized silk, navy. Schoolgirls worked on production. Initial sighting in the US, 4 Nov, 1944, off San Pedro. Impacts as far east as Michigan (!), as Far south as Northern Mexico, as far north as Northern Alaska and Yukon Territories. Clustered in S Central Wahington/BC/Oregon. 15 kg HE bombs, 11 and 26 lb Thermite. Continued thru end of war. And if i was in an out of the way part of that territory tomorrow, i would be careful about odd looking bits of metal.... Alaska, BC and Yukon include some wilderness... regards dwp ------------------------------ From: Marc Studer Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 12:35:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: More MHD Drives I remeber reading that while an MHD drive is silent, the disadvantage is that the sub would leave a magnetic trail in the water that could be detected with and airborne MAD sensor. ************* Marc Studer *************************************************** ************ "Life is all you can eat or all you can stomach." ************** ******************************************** -Jacques Portman *************** ------------------------------ From: Marc Studer Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 12:38:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Redundent MHD post Sorry about the extra MHD post. I'm getting the posts out of order. ************* Marc Studer *************************************************** ************ "Life is all you can eat or all you can stomach." ************** ******************************************** -Jacques Portman *************** ------------------------------ From: Geoff.Miller@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:18:06 +0800 Subject: Re: Active impedence megazone@world.std.com writes: > New subs use a pumpjet propulsor, which is a ducted propeller basically, > designed to improve efficiency and reduce noise. As I understand it, a pumpjet propulsor isn't so much a ducted propeller as a waterjet system with an intake and an impeller, similar to that used on a lot of pleasure boats -- Berkeley jet drives and the like. "Ducted propeller" implies a more or less regular external propeller with a ring around it, like the ones on the DSRVs. - --Geoff ------------------------------ From: John Regus Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 15:31:39 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: Active impedence The latest Italian sub designs are using ducted props... they can be seen in a book titled, "Sub vs. Sub" by some RN CDR, whose name I can get if you want it. John F. Regus | (713) 960-0045 | SYS/370/390 SYSTEM SOFTWARE ENGINEERING WUI:REGUSHOU | On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Geoff Miller wrote: > > > > megazone@world.std.com writes: > > > New subs use a pumpjet propulsor, which is a ducted propeller basically, > > designed to improve efficiency and reduce noise. > > > As I understand it, a pumpjet propulsor isn't so much a ducted > propeller as a waterjet system with an intake and an impeller, > similar to that used on a lot of pleasure boats -- Berkeley jet > drives and the like. "Ducted propeller" implies a more or less > regular external propeller with a ring around it, like the ones > on the DSRVs. > > > > --Geoff ------------------------------ From: ad607@freenet.carleton.ca (Darrell A. Larose) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 21:00:18 GMT Subject: Where is everyone?? I opened the newslist today and it was empty.. - -- Darrell A. Larose.... ad607@freenet.carleton.ca "..Just hitchhiking along the info highway..." ------------------------------ From: orson@ntep.tmg.nec.co.jp (Orson Yu) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 94 10:19:31 JST Subject: [none] index /pub/skunk-works ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 4:52:30 EST Subject: DoD According to the Navy News Service, there is a DoD "Defenselink" on the World Wide Web. The address is: http://www.dtic.dla.mil/defenselink I was in it for a few minutes this morning. It has latest news, contracts, etc. - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #168 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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