From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #171 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 15 December 1994 Volume 05 : Number 171 In this issue: Ben Rich book - where from? Area 51 blurb in Air and Space Stealth C-130 PBS U-2 documentary Flyable Trinkets YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs Flying Trinkets, the 1995 version Re: YF-23 Re: YF-23 Re: YF-23 Display Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs Re: YF-23 Display New(?) Secret Craft being developed at Arctic Base? [none] Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC Re: Flying YF-23 again and A-17 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Adrian Thurlow Date: Tue, 13 Dec 94 12:45:41 +0000 Subject: Ben Rich book - where from? Hi Skunkworks Interneters, I am getting frustrated waiting for the new book 'Skunkworks' by Ben Rich and Leo Janos, published by Little, Brown and Company to become available in the UK and I am now considering ordering it direct from the US as I had to do with Kelly Johnson's book. Please could someone post the address and telephone number ( and e-mail address?) of a book shop that holds this title and will accept orders from overseas. Regards Adrian Thurlow / Det.4 9th SRW \ Technology Integration / \ BT Labs / _ \ Martlesham Heath ____(( ))_________/_/_\_\_________(( ))____ Ipswich \ \_/ / Suffolk U.K. Now only distant thunder Tel. +44 1473 644880 Fax. +44 1473 646534 e-mail. Adrian.Thurlow@bt-sys.bt.co.uk The views expressed above are not necessarily those of BT. ------------------------------ From: Rick Lafford Date: Tue, 13 Dec 94 08:26:16 EST Subject: Area 51 blurb in Air and Space The current issue of Smithsonian Air and Space has a blurb on "Groomstock" along with a nice photo of the Freedom Ridge summit. Rick Rick Lafford lafford@clpd.kodak.com ------------------------------ From: DsrtRngr@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 22:01:11 -0500 Subject: Stealth C-130 Gee, I'm suprised nobody caught this... found it on a newservice: 11/15 1212 STEALTH REPLACEMENT FOR C-130 POSSIBLE, AEROSPACE ... NEW YORK, N.Y. (Nov. 15) BUSINESS WIRE -November 15, 1994--Aerospace Daily, in its Tuesday, November 15th issue, is reporting that the Air Force may be looking at developing a stealth replacement for C-130 cargo aircraft used by U.S. Special Operations Force (SOF). Information about the possible new stealth aircraft is contained in briefing documents on dozens of potential projects prepared by the Air Force Special Operations Command that were obtained by Aerospace Daily Senior Editor Jim Mathews. The prospective aircraft is identified in the briefing papers as the MC-X. It would be a long-term replacement for the MC-130 Combat Talon II, which is used for a variety of special tactical missions, including day and night infiltration and removal of troops, and resupply of Special Operations ground forces and covert airdrops. Aerospace Daily part of McGraw-Hill's Aviation Week Group, has been acknowledged for more than a quarter of a century as the aerospace industry's premier intelligence and information newsletter. The briefing papers did not provide information on possible funding for the MC-X, but Program Element Descriptive Summaries accompanying the fiscal 1995 DOD budget include a line-item for "Future SOF Aircraft" of approximately $43 million for early design studies between 1996 and 1999. For more information, contact Edmund Pinto, Aviation Week Group Newsletters, 202/383-2410, or Eileen Gabriele, McGraw-Hill, Inc., 212/512-3852. ------------------------------ From: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:00:00 EST Subject: PBS U-2 documentary <<<<<< Attached TEXT file follows >>>>>> File item: PBS-U2 12/13/94 3:13PM I am forwarding this request from Beth Tierney of PBS. Does anybody know any one she ought to talk to? Please respond DIRECTLY TO HER, *NOT* TO ME. She is: Beth_Tierney@qmgate.wgbh.org Jdonoghue@draper.com U-2, Commo, Det H |> +++++++++++++++Original Message+++++++++ |> |> Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:50:50 -0500 |> From: Beth Tierney |> |> We're a production team with THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE--a weekly, prime-time |> documentary series on public television--and we've just embarked on an |> exciting new project: a documentary about the U-2 spy plane. |> |> We would like to tell the story, as much as possible, from the point-of-view |> of those who worked on the U-2 project, focusing on the secret research and |> development team at Lockheed, the Skunk Works. We would like to cover a |> number of angles: What key moments do participants remember about the |> development of the U-2? What were the technological obstacles engineers had |> to overcome? What was it like working on a secret project? |> |> We're also interested in tracking down the pilots who tested the plane and |> then flew secret reconnaisance missions; CIA personnel involved in the project; |> and the engineers and others involved in the development of the special film |> and camera equipment. |> |> We also hope to encorporate stories involving the development of the SR-71 ( |> the Blackbird). |> |> We would be grateful for any suggestions that will help us track down |> participants in the U-2/Blackbird story. We're also interested, more |> generally, in the military-industrial complex of southern California (from the |> early 1950s to the mid-1960s). We're interested in painting a picture of life |> in this region during the Cold War. We would also appreciate any tips that |> could lead to stock footage. As always, we're not just interested in footage |> from the established archives, but also film from the lesser-known "archives," |> such as attic and basement collections! Finally, we'd love to hear your |> suggestions about key books, dissertations and other documents. |> |> Thank you very much for your help. |> |> RESPOND TO: Beth_Tierney@qmgate.wgbh.org - ------- End of Forwarded Messagef ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:54:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Flyable Trinkets Someone (Emory?) sent me a list of trinkets to buy at the Gift Shop sale today or tomorrow and then fly in the SR-71 next year. I've foolishly lost the list and all messages referring to this. Please send it again. Anyway, this is a good time for everyone who missed out last time around, as the sale price is 20 percent off. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: Sam Date: Wed, 14 Dec 94 13:10:33 EST Subject: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs Some notes that might be of interest: These items are from Air International Dec 1994 Under a picture of a YF-23 page 323: "Having lost the USAF ATF competition to the F-22, the two Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 prototypes 87-0800 and 87-0801 have now been acquired by the NASA Dryden research facility at Edwards AFB. There are currently no plans to fly second prototype 87-0801, which is seen here in open storage at Dryden on October 6. The first example is, however, currently being worked on and will shortly join the NASA trials fleet. As an interesting aside, a mysterious night time accident in the UK at Boscombe Down, Wilshire, on September 26 which was veiled in secrecy is rumored to have involved an aircraft derived from the YF-23, indicating a previously unknown black programme." I came across mention of this accident on another list some time ago. The poster suggested that the A/C in question may have been a TR-3A. Page 325 left column "The first three re-engined U-2Rs were handed over at Palmdale, California during October. Following replacement of the P&W J75-P-13B engine with a new GE F118-GE-101 powerplant, derived from the engine fitted in B-2 bomber, the upgraded aircraft have been redesignated U-2S. The extra power and increased thrust-to-weight ratio, together with a 16% improvement in fuel consumption, means that endurance in increased by up to three hours, maximum range increased by 1,200nm (2,200km) and ceiling increased by 3,500ft (1,100m). Full funding has now been granted for re-engining and some sensor upgrades to the remainder of the U-2R fleet, which comprise 33 U-2Rs and three two-seater U-2RT trainers, all in service with the 9th RW at Beale AFB, California. Another U-2R damaged some years ago is also now on rebuild to two- seater configuration as a U-2RT. Re-engining will be undertaken as the aircraft come in for scheduled depot-level maintenance, the last aircraft being due for completion in FY1998. Although some sensor upgrading has been approved, including a multi-spectral imagery upgrade to five 'Senior Year' Electro-optical Reconnaissance System cameras, the USAF is seeking additional funding for a number of other sensor upgrades" "Chrysler Technologies Airborne Systems (CTAS) announced on October 18 that it has been awarded a USAF contract to install the ITT enhanced AN/AQL-172 electronic counter measures system on USAF AC-130H Hercules gunships. Total value of the contract, including options, is put a $16 million." I don't know if 'black unmarked helicopters' (BUH) is grist for this mill or not, but I noticed a report on local radio talk show that there have been several occurrences of sightings around a small local airport. It was noted that at Smith Field (SMD) BUH have been observed hovering for extended periods. The local county sheriff dismissed the sightings as normal military activity (DEA). Personally I agree with the sheriff, just because they aren't after you doesn't mean you shouldn't be paranoid :-() | / MI What do I know, I'm a geology major. \ /___________________ Sam \_____/ | IBM Systems Programmer Chicago/ | * | O Indiana University - I | Ft. Wayne | H Purdue University at Fort Wayne L | 1794-1994 | Fort Wayne, Indiana USA ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 14:48:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have no engines. We are NOT going to fly them. Ever. Period. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 18:02:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Flying Trinkets, the 1995 version Here's the deal--Today and tomorrow (14 & 15 Dec) the Gift Shop is having a 20-percent-off sale and I'll pass the saving on to you (I'm really not trying to make money on this, although the last go-round netted $4.37 for the Daycare Center, which I though was pretty good for over 100 things flown--I was off by less than a nickel per item). If you decide after about noon Pacific time tomorrow, you'll have to pay full price. I'm going to make the pricing a little more complex, so read this carefully: Trinket Price Mailer Weight Tie tack/lapel pin $3.00 Yes 1/3 oz Patch (small, Mach 3) 2.00 No 1/4 oz Keyring (pewter) 5.00 Yes 1/2 oz The mailer costs me $0.75, the first ounce costs $0.32, and every ounce after that costs about $0.29. Directions: Total the price of the trinkets, T. If you told me before lunch on Thursday, subtract 20 percent. Figure out if you need a mailer, and add M = 0.75 to T if you do. Sum the weights and round _up_, getting W. If W < 1, P = 0.32. If W > 1, P = 0.32 + (W-1) * 0.29. Total = T + M + P If you send me a pre-addressed stamped envelope, Total = T. Send me a check or money order or cash for T. If you want something you already own flown, then Total = M + P unless you send me the pre-addressed stamped envelope, in which case it's free. If you're not in the US, we can talk about International Reply Coupons and exchange rates but I think that some sort of trade might be better than actual money, which is so difficult for both of us. I like mugs and patches, for example. The flights will be in the first quarter of 1995 and you will get a small certificate with crew, aircraft, max Mach, and max altitude. This is the last chance that I can absolutely guarantee. My address is: Ms Mary Shafer P.O. Box 4230 Lancaster, CA 93539-4230 USA Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: Illya Kuryakin Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 16:27:01 -0800 Subject: Re: YF-23 Mary indicated: "We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have no engines. We are NOT going to fly them. Ever. Period." Uh, Mary, if you're not going to fly them... Can I have one? :} Rick Illya Kuryakin | "HA!!" kuryakin@halcyon.com | | Ruby | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 23:00:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: YF-23 Like it says in your signature, HA! We're going to break them. You know, I have to tell you honestly that many of us hope that they'll fly again. Being realistic, we didn't get the engines or the maintainence manuals or spare parts and the transfer agreement we signed says they won't be flown and we don't have any money to fly them and so on, but we do hope.... We also got the YA-9 aircraft (loser to the YA-10). The four engines are flying in the QSRA up at Ames and the airframes eventually went off to be gate guards somewhere. We never flew them; they sat out in our boneyard for over a decade. So precedent is against us. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, Illya Kuryakin wrote: > > Mary indicated: > > "We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have > no engines. We are NOT going to fly them. Ever. Period." > > Uh, Mary, if you're not going to fly them... > > Can I have one? :} > > Rick > > Illya Kuryakin | "HA!!" > kuryakin@halcyon.com | > | Ruby > | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: SAI ENGINEERING <0005719312@mcimail.com> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 03:53 EST Subject: Re: YF-23 Display Its no secret to some of us, that Rick has been wanting to display an aircraft in his backyard for a number of years. His goal of acquiring one to the envy of his neighbors, has so far not panned out. Rick, maybe you can talk to the old Soviet Union about an aircraft that might be sitting around. Tom ................. Still flying my desk after all these years. ------------------------------ From: ad607@freenet.carleton.ca (Darrell A. Larose) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 15:54:20 GMT Subject: Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs In a previous posting, Mary Shafer (shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com) writes: > We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have > no engines. More 'Black' projects, how to reduce the IR signature to nil! (GRIN) ;-> - -- Darrell A. Larose | ad607@freenet.carleton.ca ..I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather... ...Not screaming in terror like his passengers... - -- ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 11:17:30 EST Subject: Re: YF-23 Display > > > Its no secret to some of us, that Rick has been wanting to display > an aircraft in his backyard for a number of years. His goal of > acquiring one to the envy of his neighbors, has so far not panned out. > Rick, maybe you can talk to the old Soviet Union about an > aircraft that might be sitting around. > > > > > Tom > ................. Still flying my desk after all these years. > He could always go out at midnight, pile a bunch of junk in his backyard, cover it with a cammo canvas, and call it a secret project!! :) - -- Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 ------------------------------ From: "JOE P." Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 12:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New(?) Secret Craft being developed at Arctic Base? There have been recent rumors surfacing regarding a new (or at least recently discovered) clandestine airborne delivery system being developed by unknown sources at a far north Arctic based secret development center. It is believed that the secret base is heavily camouflaged since numerous aerial reconnaissance and satellite intelligence gathering missions have all returned with only "snow" on their monitors. One mission did, at first, seem to offer some photographic information however this was later ruled to be an artifact of the photographic processes used. The anomaly appeared as a single stripped vertical cylinder displaying red ands white stripping. There was an indication of it perhaps having a "curved or hooked" upper surface. This base seems to be involved with only a single program. It does appear that more than a single government may be involved in the staging of this project. This is based on the fact that although there have been numerous supposed sightings of the craft and personnel involved in this program, no government has yet undertaken any seriously funded action to discover the basis for these "sightings". The craft(s) in question appear occasionally on AC&W radar "screens" operated by several northern countries but "sightings" have been reported at all locations on the globe at one time or another. There have also been unconfirmed reports that Air Defense Pilots and other pilots flying the northern commercial air routes have visually spotted this craft and its pilot. A curious thing about these sightings is that they seem to peak shortly after the winter solstice, last for about a week and then seem to vanish for almost a year. It is possible that geomagnetic anomalies at this time of year may contribute to a partial failure of the "stealth" systems this vehicle employs. It is believed that the system involved is used as a heavy cargo hauler with "stealthy" characteristics which allow the pilot to enter or exit virtually any and all airspaces almost undetected. Other characteristics of this craft would seem to indicate extremely high speed operation with a globe circling endurance capability. It is unknown if mid-air refueling capability supports this mission. No evidence of ground based fueling, other than a few "cookie crumbs and white liquid residue" and an occasional apple or carrot stem have been noted in the operations area of this craft and its pilot. Another system seems to be either under co-development by the same contractor or perhaps it is being developed by "extremely low factual sighting" personnel. This group (nicknamed elfs) is often seen in conjunction with the above mentioned craft. This related system seems to be related to "stealthy" ingress and egress of a single individual into almost all facilities, including military housing, operations centers, hospitals, and commercial shopping centers. The only indication that entry may have occurred is the very rare spotting of ashes or soot in the area of direct combustion heating systems. It is believed that this system allows the person concealed by it to enter, most often under cover of darkness, while being unseen by virtually any observer. Numerous attempts to detect these late night visitations, especially by observers blessed with the especially sharp vision of younger children, have always proved fruitless. There seems to be no illegal intent with these entries, especially since most often the intruder leaves various colorfully wrapped objects behind while departing the area. On the occasions when an individual has reportedly been sighted conducting these missions, the sightings have been proven to be less than verifiable. This seems to be due, in many instances, to an (over?) indulgence of various ethanol based liquids on the part of the observers. In the cases where no such liquids have been consumed, the sightings are debunked solely on the basis of an over-active imagination on the part of the observer. So I would like to ask all potential observers to keep a sharp eye scanning the northern skies, especially in the period of December 24,25 for any sightings of this craft, it's pilot or support personnel (elfs) or especially its propulsion unit(s). (The reported propulsion units which have been reputed to power this craft are so incredible as to not even justify printing more detailed information other than there appear to be eight (or on foggy nights), nine units (perhaps a visual anomaly since this ninth unit seems to exhibit a reddish glow not shown by the eight "normal" units). If you should detect such a craft or it's pilot please file a report to the office of Sub Normal Aircraft Flying Units (SNAFU) at Internet 555-1212@Polar.NP.WWW It should be noted that this site is only active, and hence sightings can only be reported, on the SECOND TUESDAY of NEXT WEEK! Direct from the halls of Edinboro University - (814) 732-2484 and directly from the terminal of, - 142 Miller Bldg. - Edinboro Univ. Joe Pyrdek pyrdek@vax.edinboro.edu - Edinboro PA 16444 ------------------------------ From: Ralph.Ferneyhough@psygnosis.co.uk Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 16:56:40 GMT Subject: [none] Sorry to bother you if this gets sent to the all recipients. I tried contacting listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu which I believed to be the list server for this mailing list and received a 'User unknown' response. Thus a) does this list still operate and b) How do I go about subscribing to it now? Thanks in advance. Ralph. ------------------------------ From: Christian Jacobsen Date: 15 Dec 1994 10:11:11 U Subject: Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC Subject: Time:10:03 AM OFFICE MEMO RE>>YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H... Date:12/15/94 Mary Shafer sez: > > We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have > > no engines. Darrell A. Larose sez: > More 'Black' projects, how to reduce the IR signature to nil! (GRIN) Oh yeah! I remember hearing about this! They were working on turning a U2 into a long-range glider (to be named the U2G). It would ride piggyback on an SR71, and when it got Way The Heck Up There(tm) the U2G would be released at some ungodly speed. The avionics guys figured that if you got it high enough and fast enough, you could glide all the way across the Soviet Union (wherever that is nowadays!). Anybody else got any more info on this Black Project? Code name? Etc? - - Christian jacobsen@george.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 10:15:29 -0800 Subject: Re: Flying YF-23 again and A-17 Mary writes: >You know, I have to tell you honestly that many of us hope that they'll >fly again. Being realistic, we didn't get the engines or the maintainence >manuals or spare parts and the transfer agreement we signed says they >won't be flown and we don't have any money to fly them and so on, but we >do hope.... Yes, it would be nice to fly the YF-23's again. But I recall from the ATF competition, that each competitor had an airframe with each possible engine. In other words, there was a YF-23 with the P&W 119 engine and a YF-23 with the GE 120 engine. I also recall reading from that time period that the engine interfaces were VERY different and that it was essentially impossible to swap engine types within a given airframe. Since the GE engine lost to the P&W engine, and since I would assume the GE engine was therefore dropped, since there was no more money with which to develop it, that the YF-23 with the GE 120 engine interface was truly the least likely ever to fly again. Since the YF-23 with the P&W interface at least enjoys having the 'winning' engine interface, I would expect that YF-23 to have the greatest chance of ever flying again. Of course we're talking prototype engine interfaces here, and the P&W engine interface may have (probably did) evolve since the ATF competition was over, so that even that YF-23 may be extremely difficult to get in the air again. We have to remember also that even the 'loser' in a competition like the ATF competition, would still be a very advanced airframe. Not something that you would just give away. But as an ultimate sport aircraft, I'm sure the right person could find 'solutions' to all of the above problems. Note, since the latest Popular Science credits the 'A-17' with having a GE-120 engine, the implication is that the GE-120 continued in development, or even was completely developed BEFORE the ATF competition was over (because it says that the Chris Gibson North Sea sighting, in August 1989, may have been an 'A-17'). If the GE-120 had been completely developed in August 1989, or developed to the point where there was another 'USAF' airframe with that engine, it would have been more 'probable' to have been selected as the winning engine of the ATF competition, in April 1991, I would expect. This brings to light many questions. I also recall, close to the time of the ATF selection (back in the end of 1990 and early 1991) that there were development problems with one of the engines, and I think (I'm not sure here I need to check on this) that the GE-120 was the engine with the problems since it was very different and more agressive (it was GE's choice to exceed required ATF specs) than the P&W engine (P&W stayed on ATF spec). If this also is true, this also raises questions. Larry ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #171 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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