From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #172 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 16 December 1994 Volume 05 : Number 172 In this issue: Re: YF-23 Display SR-71 to fly spy missions by April Re: Russian Thermoplane Re: SR-71 to fly spy missions by April Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #171 Backyard projects Re: YF-23 Display Re: Ben Rich book - where from? YF120 engines A-17s and lenticular vehicles See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Regus Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 12:17:37 -0500 (CST) Subject: Re: YF-23 Display On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, Doug Tiffany wrote: > > > > > > Its no secret to some of us, that Rick has been wanting to display > > an aircraft in his backyard for a number of years. His goal of > > acquiring one to the envy of his neighbors, has so far not panned out. > > Rick, maybe you can talk to the old Soviet Union about an > > aircraft that might be sitting around. > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > ................. Still flying my desk after all these years. > > > > He could always go out at midnight, pile a bunch of junk in his > backyard, cover it with a cammo canvas, and call it a secret project!! > > :) > > Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) > Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division > Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 Doug; That is what the beltway bandits have been doing for years to continue project funding.... They would probably sue for patent infringement. No, I think the best course of action is to make a deal with the CIS, where almost everything is for sell now and get one of the 31s cheap, and not keep it in the backyard but in the carport next to the house and use the exhaust to melt the snow off the driveway, street, the neighbor's driveway, etc. ------------------------------ From: "Joseph F. Donoghue" Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 14:40:00 EST Subject: SR-71 to fly spy missions by April From DEFENSE NEWS, Dec 12-18. "The SR-71 Blackbird is expected to be flying spy missions again by April, military andindustry officials say. ...The first Blackbird is scheduled to fly to LADC, Palmdale from the NASA facilities at Edwards AFB on Dec 22, AF Maj. Gen Ken Israel said Dec 7. ...That will be the first of 3 A/CScheduled to be reactivated ...That aircraft can be readied in 4 months Jim Ragsdale, spokesman for Lockheed, said..." I thought the 3 sleds in storage for the AF were already at Palmdale. They are not taking back any of the NASA birds are they. And why hasn't anybody at Eddy reported this to us Skunkers. Joe Donoghue jdonoghue@draper.com ------------------------------ From: Marc Studer Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 12:28:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Russian Thermoplane Can anyone provide more details on the Russian thermoplane that I keep hearing about? I've just picked up little tidbits on this server and Popular Mechanics, but still have no idea on what it's supposed to look like or what makes it special other than it's stealthy. Also Re: North pole Stealthy transport system, It seems that in 1947 out in New Mexico there was a crash of an unknown aircraft type in late December. First reports indicated wreckage of a sled type vehicle but certain anonymous goverment agencies (who's name has not been revealed) moved in, snatched the wreckage, and claimed the whole thing was a weather balloon that had been traveling at mach 8.5 and crashed. Makes you kind of think. ************* Marc Studer *************************************************** ************ "Life is all you can eat or all you can stomach." ************** ******************************************** -Jacques Portman *************** ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 16:20:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: SR-71 to fly spy missions by April Maybe we haven't mentioned it because no one told us we had to ask your permission. What makes you think we owe you any report at all? General Israel is wrong--they're not getting 832 on 22 December. The flight schedule that I put out yesterday has the plane going down to Plant 42 in "early January". Since I'm the flight scheduler, I suspect it'll happen my way (mostly because, based on my schedule, the pilots have scheduled their holiday leave). Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, Joseph F. Donoghue wrote: > > >From DEFENSE NEWS, Dec 12-18. "The SR-71 Blackbird is expected to be > flying spy missions again by April, military andindustry officials say. > ...The first Blackbird is scheduled to fly to LADC, Palmdale from the > NASA facilities at Edwards AFB on Dec 22, AF Maj. Gen Ken Israel said > Dec 7. ...That will be the first of 3 A/CScheduled to be reactivated > ...That aircraft can be readied in 4 months Jim Ragsdale, spokesman for > Lockheed, said..." > > I thought the 3 sleds in storage for the AF were already at Palmdale. > They are not taking back any of the NASA birds are they. And why hasn't > anybody at Eddy reported this to us Skunkers. > > Joe Donoghue > jdonoghue@draper.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael William Freeman" Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 17:08:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #171 > > Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 15 December 1994 Volume 05 : Number 171 > > In this issue: > > Ben Rich book - where from? > Area 51 blurb in Air and Space > Stealth C-130 > PBS U-2 documentary > Flyable Trinkets > YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs > Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs > Flying Trinkets, the 1995 version > Re: YF-23 > Re: YF-23 > Re: YF-23 Display > Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs > Re: YF-23 Display > New(?) Secret Craft being developed at Arctic Base? > [none] > Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC > Re: Flying YF-23 again and A-17 > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works > or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Adrian Thurlow > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 94 12:45:41 +0000 > Subject: Ben Rich book - where from? > > Hi Skunkworks Interneters, > > I am getting frustrated waiting for the new book 'Skunkworks' by Ben Rich > and Leo Janos, published by Little, Brown and Company to become available in > the UK and I am now considering ordering it direct from the US as I had to > do with Kelly Johnson's book. > Please could someone post the address and telephone number ( and e-mail > address?) of a book shop that holds this title and will accept orders from > overseas. > > Regards > > Adrian Thurlow / Det.4 9th SRW \ > Technology Integration / \ > BT Labs / _ \ > Martlesham Heath ____(( ))_________/_/_\_\_________(( ))____ > Ipswich \ \_/ / > Suffolk > U.K. Now only distant thunder > > Tel. +44 1473 644880 > Fax. +44 1473 646534 > > e-mail. Adrian.Thurlow@bt-sys.bt.co.uk > > The views expressed above are not necessarily those of BT. > > ------------------------------ > > From: Rick Lafford > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 94 08:26:16 EST > Subject: Area 51 blurb in Air and Space > > The current issue of Smithsonian Air and Space has a blurb on "Groomstock" > along with a nice photo of the Freedom Ridge summit. > > Rick > > Rick Lafford > lafford@clpd.kodak.com > > > ------------------------------ > > From: DsrtRngr@aol.com > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 22:01:11 -0500 > Subject: Stealth C-130 > > Gee, I'm suprised nobody caught this... found it on a newservice: > > 11/15 1212 STEALTH REPLACEMENT FOR C-130 POSSIBLE, AEROSPACE ... > > NEW YORK, N.Y. (Nov. 15) BUSINESS WIRE -November 15, 1994--Aerospace Daily, > in its Tuesday, November 15th issue, is reporting that the Air Force may be > looking at developing a stealth replacement for C-130 cargo aircraft used by > U.S. Special Operations Force (SOF). > Information about the possible new stealth aircraft is contained in > briefing > documents on dozens of potential projects prepared by the Air Force Special > Operations Command that were obtained by Aerospace Daily Senior Editor Jim > Mathews. The prospective aircraft is identified in the briefing papers as > the > MC-X. It would be a long-term replacement for the MC-130 Combat Talon II, > which is used for a variety of special tactical missions, including day and > night > infiltration and removal of troops, and resupply of Special Operations ground > forces and covert airdrops. > Aerospace Daily part of McGraw-Hill's Aviation Week Group, has been > acknowledged for more than a quarter of a century as the aerospace industry's > premier intelligence and information newsletter. The briefing papers did not > provide information on possible funding for the MC-X, but Program Element > Descriptive Summaries accompanying the fiscal 1995 DOD budget include a > line-item for "Future SOF Aircraft" of approximately $43 million for early > design studies between 1996 and 1999. > For more information, contact Edmund Pinto, Aviation Week Group > Newsletters, 202/383-2410, or Eileen Gabriele, McGraw-Hill, Inc., > 212/512-3852. > > ------------------------------ > > From: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:00:00 EST > Subject: PBS U-2 documentary > > <<<<<< Attached TEXT file follows >>>>>> > File item: PBS-U2 12/13/94 3:13PM > > I am forwarding this request from Beth Tierney of PBS. Does anybody know any > one she ought to talk to? Please respond DIRECTLY TO HER, *NOT* TO ME. > > She is: Beth_Tierney@qmgate.wgbh.org > > > Jdonoghue@draper.com > U-2, Commo, Det H > > |> +++++++++++++++Original Message+++++++++ > |> > |> Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:50:50 -0500 > |> From: Beth Tierney > |> > |> We're a production team with THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE--a weekly, prime-time > |> documentary series on public television--and we've just embarked on an > |> exciting new project: a documentary about the U-2 spy plane. > |> > |> We would like to tell the story, as much as possible, from the point-of-vie w > |> of those who worked on the U-2 project, focusing on the secret research and > |> development team at Lockheed, the Skunk Works. We would like to cover a > |> number of angles: What key moments do participants remember about the > |> development of the U-2? What were the technological obstacles engineers ha d > |> to overcome? What was it like working on a secret project? > |> > |> We're also interested in tracking down the pilots who tested the plane and > |> then flew secret reconnaisance missions; CIA personnel involved in the > project; > |> and the engineers and others involved in the development of the special fi lm > > |> and camera equipment. > |> > |> We also hope to encorporate stories involving the development of the SR-71 ( > > |> the Blackbird). > |> > |> We would be grateful for any suggestions that will help us track down > |> participants in the U-2/Blackbird story. We're also interested, more > |> generally, in the military-industrial complex of southern California (from > the > |> early 1950s to the mid-1960s). We're interested in painting a picture of > life > |> in this region during the Cold War. We would also appreciate any tips that > |> could lead to stock footage. As always, we're not just interested in foota ge > > |> from the established archives, but also film from the lesser-known > "archives," > |> such as attic and basement collections! Finally, we'd love to hear your > |> suggestions about key books, dissertations and other documents. > |> > |> Thank you very much for your help. > |> > |> RESPOND TO: Beth_Tierney@qmgate.wgbh.org > > - ------- End of Forwarded Messagef > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Mary Shafer > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:54:34 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Flyable Trinkets > > Someone (Emory?) sent me a list of trinkets to buy at the Gift Shop sale > today or tomorrow and then fly in the SR-71 next year. I've foolishly > lost the list and all messages referring to this. Please send it again. > > Anyway, this is a good time for everyone who missed out last time around, > as the sale price is 20 percent off. > > Regards, > Mary > > Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com > URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html > Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard > Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Sam > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 94 13:10:33 EST > Subject: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs > > Some notes that might be of interest: > > These items are from Air International Dec 1994 > > Under a picture of a YF-23 page 323: > "Having lost the USAF ATF competition to the F-22, the two > Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 prototypes 87-0800 and 87-0801 > have now been acquired by the NASA Dryden research facility at > Edwards AFB. There are currently no plans to fly second prototype > 87-0801, which is seen here in open storage at Dryden on October > 6. The first example is, however, currently being worked on and > will shortly join the NASA trials fleet. As an interesting aside, > a mysterious night time accident in the UK at Boscombe Down, > Wilshire, on September 26 which was veiled in secrecy is rumored > to have involved an aircraft derived from the YF-23, indicating a > previously unknown black programme." > > I came across mention of this accident on another list some time ago. The > poster suggested that the A/C in question may have been a TR-3A. > > Page 325 left column > "The first three re-engined U-2Rs were handed over at Palmdale, > California during October. Following replacement of the P&W > J75-P-13B engine with a new GE F118-GE-101 powerplant, derived > from the engine fitted in B-2 bomber, the upgraded aircraft have > been redesignated U-2S. The extra power and increased > thrust-to-weight ratio, together with a 16% improvement in fuel > consumption, means that endurance in increased by up to three > hours, maximum range increased by 1,200nm (2,200km) and ceiling > increased by 3,500ft (1,100m). Full funding has now been granted > for re-engining and some sensor upgrades to the remainder of the > U-2R fleet, which comprise 33 U-2Rs and three two-seater U-2RT > trainers, all in service with the 9th RW at Beale AFB, California. > Another U-2R damaged some years ago is also now on rebuild to two- > seater configuration as a U-2RT. Re-engining will be undertaken > as the aircraft come in for scheduled depot-level maintenance, the > last aircraft being due for completion in FY1998. Although some > sensor upgrading has been approved, including a multi-spectral > imagery upgrade to five 'Senior Year' Electro-optical > Reconnaissance System cameras, the USAF is seeking additional > funding for a number of other sensor upgrades" > > "Chrysler Technologies Airborne Systems (CTAS) announced on > October 18 that it has been awarded a USAF contract to install the > ITT enhanced AN/AQL-172 electronic counter measures system on USAF > AC-130H Hercules gunships. Total value of the contract, including > options, is put a $16 million." > > > I don't know if 'black unmarked helicopters' (BUH) is grist for this mill > or not, but I noticed a report on local radio talk show that there have > been several occurrences of sightings around a small local airport. It was > noted that at Smith Field (SMD) BUH have been observed hovering for > extended periods. The local county sheriff dismissed the sightings as > normal military activity (DEA). Personally I agree with the sheriff, just > because they aren't after you doesn't mean you shouldn't be paranoid :-() > > | / MI What do I know, I'm a geology majo r. > \ /___________________ Sam > \_____/ | IBM Systems Programmer > Chicago/ | * | O Indiana University - > I | Ft. Wayne | H Purdue University at Fort Wayne > L | 1794-1994 | Fort Wayne, Indiana USA > > ------------------------------ > > From: Mary Shafer > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 14:48:09 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs > > We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have > no engines. We are NOT going to fly them. Ever. Period. > > Regards, > Mary > > Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com > URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html > Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard > Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Mary Shafer > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 18:02:08 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Flying Trinkets, the 1995 version > > Here's the deal--Today and tomorrow (14 & 15 Dec) the Gift Shop is having > a 20-percent-off sale and I'll pass the saving on to you (I'm really not > trying to make money on this, although the last go-round netted $4.37 for > the Daycare Center, which I though was pretty good for over 100 things > flown--I was off by less than a nickel per item). If you decide after > about noon Pacific time tomorrow, you'll have to pay full price. > > I'm going to make the pricing a little more complex, so read this > carefully: > > Trinket Price Mailer Weight > Tie tack/lapel pin $3.00 Yes 1/3 oz > Patch (small, Mach 3) 2.00 No 1/4 oz > Keyring (pewter) 5.00 Yes 1/2 oz > > The mailer costs me $0.75, the first ounce costs $0.32, and every ounce > after that costs about $0.29. > > Directions: Total the price of the trinkets, T. If you told me before > lunch on Thursday, subtract 20 percent. Figure out if you need a mailer, > and add M = 0.75 to T if you do. Sum the weights and round _up_, getting > W. If W < 1, P = 0.32. If W > 1, P = 0.32 + (W-1) * 0.29. > > Total = T + M + P > > If you send me a pre-addressed stamped envelope, Total = T. > > Send me a check or money order or cash for T. > > If you want something you already own flown, then Total = M + P unless you > send me the pre-addressed stamped envelope, in which case it's free. > > If you're not in the US, we can talk about International Reply Coupons and > exchange rates but I think that some sort of trade might be better than > actual money, which is so difficult for both of us. I like mugs and > patches, for example. > > The flights will be in the first quarter of 1995 and you will get a small > certificate with crew, aircraft, max Mach, and max altitude. > > This is the last chance that I can absolutely guarantee. > > My address is: > Ms Mary Shafer > P.O. Box 4230 > Lancaster, CA 93539-4230 > USA > > Regards, > Mary > > Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com > URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html > Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard > Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Illya Kuryakin > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 16:27:01 -0800 > Subject: Re: YF-23 > > Mary indicated: > > "We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have > no engines. We are NOT going to fly them. Ever. Period." > > Uh, Mary, if you're not going to fly them... > > Can I have one? :} > > Rick > > Illya Kuryakin | "HA!!" > kuryakin@halcyon.com | > | Ruby > | Galactic Gumshoe > > ------------------------------ > > From: Mary Shafer > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 23:00:14 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: YF-23 > > Like it says in your signature, HA! > > We're going to break them. > > You know, I have to tell you honestly that many of us hope that they'll > fly again. Being realistic, we didn't get the engines or the maintainence > manuals or spare parts and the transfer agreement we signed says they > won't be flown and we don't have any money to fly them and so on, but we > do hope.... > > We also got the YA-9 aircraft (loser to the YA-10). The four engines are > flying in the QSRA up at Ames and the airframes eventually went off to be > gate guards somewhere. We never flew them; they sat out in our boneyard > for over a decade. So precedent is against us. > > Regards, > Mary > > > Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com > URL http://www.dfrf.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html > Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard > Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... > > > On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, Illya Kuryakin wrote: > > > > > Mary indicated: > > > > "We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have > > no engines. We are NOT going to fly them. Ever. Period." > > > > Uh, Mary, if you're not going to fly them... > > > > Can I have one? :} > > > > Rick > > > > Illya Kuryakin | "HA!!" > > kuryakin@halcyon.com | > > | Ruby > > | Galactic Gumshoe > > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: SAI ENGINEERING <0005719312@mcimail.com> > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 03:53 EST > Subject: Re: YF-23 Display > > Its no secret to some of us, that Rick has been wanting to display > an aircraft in his backyard for a number of years. His goal of > acquiring one to the envy of his neighbors, has so far not panned out. > Rick, maybe you can talk to the old Soviet Union about an > aircraft that might be sitting around. > > > Tom > ................. Still flying my desk after all these years. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: ad607@freenet.carleton.ca (Darrell A. Larose) > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 15:54:20 GMT > Subject: Re: YF-23, U-2R to U-2S, AC-130H upgrade, UBHs > > In a previous posting, Mary Shafer (shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com) writes: > > We have both YF-23s here at Dryden. They're intact except that they have > > no engines. > > More 'Black' projects, how to reduce the IR signature to nil! (GRIN) > ;-> > > > - -- > Darrell A. Larose | ad607@freenet.carleton.ca > ..I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather... > ...Not screaming in terror like his passengers... > - -- > > > ------------------------------ > > From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 11:17:30 EST > Subject: Re: YF-23 Display > > > > > > > Its no secret to some of us, that Rick has been wanting to display > > an aircraft in his backyard for a number of years. His goal of > > acquiring one to the envy of his neighbors, has so far not panned out. > > Rick, maybe you can talk to the old Soviet Union about an > > aircraft that might be sitting around. > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > ................. Still flying my desk after all these years. > > > > He could always go out at midnight, pile a bunch of junk in his > backyard, cover it with a cammo canvas, and call it a secret project!! > > :) > > > > > - -- > Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) > Varco-Pruden Buildings Northern Division > Van Wert OH. (419) 238-9533 > > ------------------------------ > > From: "JOE P." > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 12:06:27 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: New(?) Secret Craft being developed at Arctic Base? > > There have been recent rumors surfacing regarding a new (or at least > recently discovered) clandestine airborne delivery system being developed > by unknown sources at a far north Arctic based secret development center. > It is believed that the secret base is heavily camouflaged since numerous > aerial reconnaissance and satellite intelligence gathering missions have all > returned with only "snow" on their monitors. One mission did, at first, > seem to offer some photographic information however this was later ruled > to be an artifact of the photographic processes used. The anomaly appeared > as a single stripped vertical cylinder displaying red ands white stripping. > There was an indication of it perhaps having a "curved or hooked" upper > surface. > > This base seems to be involved with only a single program. It does appear > that more than a single government may be involved in the staging of this > project. This is based on the fact that although there have been numerous > supposed sightings of the craft and personnel involved in this program, > no government has yet undertaken any seriously funded action to discover > the basis for these "sightings". > > The craft(s) in question appear occasionally on AC&W radar "screens" operated > by several northern countries but "sightings" have been reported at all > locations on the globe at one time or another. There have also been > unconfirmed reports that Air Defense Pilots and other pilots flying the > northern commercial air routes have visually spotted this craft and its > pilot. A curious thing about these sightings is that they seem to peak > shortly after the winter solstice, last for about a week and then seem > to vanish for almost a year. It is possible that geomagnetic anomalies > at this time of year may contribute to a partial failure of the "stealth" > systems this vehicle employs. > > It is believed that the system involved is used as a heavy cargo hauler with > "stealthy" characteristics which allow the pilot to enter or exit virtually > any and all airspaces almost undetected. Other characteristics of this craft > would seem to indicate extremely high speed operation with a globe circling > endurance capability. It is unknown if mid-air refueling capability supports > this mission. No evidence of ground based fueling, other than a few "cookie > crumbs and white liquid residue" and an occasional apple or carrot stem > have been noted in the operations area of this craft and its pilot. > > Another system seems to be either under co-development by the same contractor > or perhaps it is being developed by "extremely low factual sighting" personnel ------------------------------ From: Illya Kuryakin Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 16:52:29 -0800 Subject: Backyard projects Heh. Yeah, I always have tried to take the lead in neighborhood envy. :} Seriously... regarding the Soviet A/C... there is some truth in them thar words... :} Jim Goodall related a story about how a friend of his accompanied a team of NASM types on a trip to Russia. They visited some abandoned Luftwaffe airbases in Russia that have basically been untouched for all the years since the war. Apparently, the Germans disabled the machineguns, punched holes in the fuel tanks and left them relatively intact. Because of the extreme dry conditions in the area, the birds are well preserved. The Russians estimate that you could restore a complete airframe with 2.5 birds. (Remember, even if they're well preserved, many have battle damage). They'll sell you enough to make a flyable ME-109, TA-152, FW-190, HS-129, etc for $50K approximately. In addition to that... there are also a number of airfields with rows of lend-lease P-29, B-25, etc that would also likely be up for grabs. They will apparently sell the clothes off their backs. I heard a rumor someone bought a Mig-29 for $20K. Heh. Cool. Rick Illya Kuryakin | "HA!!" kuryakin@halcyon.com | | Ruby | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: freeman@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 23:15:19 -0800 Subject: Re: YF-23 Display > He could always go out at midnight, pile a bunch of junk in his > backyard, cover it with a cammo canvas, and call it a secret project!! He could mount a placard saying "stealth aircraft" in front of an empty lot and have people wondering how the technology got so good in the visual... ------------------------------ From: Christopher Zguris <0004854540@mcimail.com> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 15:00 EST Subject: Re: Ben Rich book - where from? Adrian Thurlow sez: >Please could someone post the address and telephone number ( and e-mail >address?) of a book shop that holds this title and will accept orders from >overseas. STRAND BOOK STORE 828 Broadway New York, NY 10003 212-473-1452 I called them, and they do ship to the UK and they do accept Visa/MasterCard. I got my copy from them, they're in the review copies section downstairs (make sure you mention that). Review copies are always half price, so what you'd save should cover the shipping. Hope this helps. Chris ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 16 Dec 94 09:12:02 EST Subject: YF120 engines I worked on the propulsion system for the YF-22 during DEM-VAL, so I might be able to address some of Larry's questions about the YF120 engines. My recol- lection is that the delivery of the YF120s was actually holding up our flight test schedule, so the earliest they would have been available would have been about late 1990-early 1991. We would have preferred to use the YF120s for the flight tests early-on because they had more thrust and we felt they would have made a better impression on the AF concerning the YF-22's performance. They were late (by about 6 months, I believe), so that's why you saw the YF119- equipped airframe fly first. I doubt that YF120s would have been flying around in another airframe in 1989 (we wouldn't have been informed about another "black" project, but the issue was the existence of the engines themselves, and there were only basically prototypes and test stand engines around that time frame, at least that we were told). The YF120 is wider at the engine face and shorter than the YF119, so it would a real trick cross-fitting the engines between airframes. Given that ATF money is pretty short these days, I would prefer to see any funds go into making the F-22 fly (I have to admit that I do like the YF-23 design, though). Regarding differneces between the engines, the YF119 used a more traditional engine cycle that took advantage of evolutionary advances in technology (like mater- ials), while the YF120 was a combined cycle engine that was more complex and sophisticated. That probably killed it, ultimately, since the big emphasis at the time was on reliability and maintainability (recall all the press about "hanger queen" aircraft costing taxpayers millions and the pictures of generals trying to work on aircraft in full NBC gear). As an aside, I recntly spoke with a fellow who worked on APUs at Sunstrand during the ATF competition. He said that the USAF gave them fairly early in- dications that the YF-23 was the less-competitive design. We had heard nothing of the sort at Lockheed, of course. I guess the Air Force must have wanted them to put their best efforts into the likely winning design. Eric ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 16-Dec-1994 0939 Date: Fri, 16 Dec 94 10:09:30 EST Subject: A-17s and lenticular vehicles Larry Smith writes, regarding the possibility of GE YF120s powering the "A-17": >But I recall from the ATF competition, that each competitor had an airframe >with each possible engine. In other words, there was a YF-23 with the P&W >119 engine and a YF-23 with the GE 120 engine. >I also recall reading from that time period that the engine interfaces were >VERY different and that it was essentially impossible to swap engine types >within a given airframe. >Since the GE engine lost to the P&W engine, and since I would assume the GE >engine was therefore dropped, since there was no more money with which to >develop it, that the YF-23 with the GE 120 engine interface was truly the >least likely ever to fly again. >Since the YF-23 with the P&W interface at least enjoys having the 'winning' >engine interface, I would expect that YF-23 to have the greatest chance of >ever flying again. The operational side of the Air Force would no doubt want to have the A-17 and the F-22 use the same engine, much as the F-15 and F-16 did with the F100 in the 1970s. To carry the analogy further, the X-32 demonstrators will use the Pratt F119s from the F-22 as well, and I believe JAST assumes the use of an F119. It seems likely that, for the sake of operational simplicity and logistics, the A-17 would use the Pratt F119. As Larry stated, the GE engine was somewhat more advanced in terms of it's high-speed cycle. This might provide an advantage for a strike vehicle, but it would have to be balanced off against the cost of developing and qualifying TWO different new-generation engines in the current budget environment, plus supporting the next generation through IHPTET. Using one engine would amortize the investment over a longer production run and thus lower the purchase price for the USAF. >We have to remember also that even the 'loser' in a competition like the ATF >competition, would still be a very advanced airframe. Not something that you >would just give away. Especially if the "loser" provides the technology base for another aircraft, like the A-17 or whatever it's really called. As an aside, did anyone see the line drawing in AW&ST a couple years ago of the Northrop A-X design? It looked exactly like an A-12 Dorito with the rear fuselage of a YF-23 grafted on the back. We should also remember that the A-17 might exist in prototype form only. production may have been canceled in the general budget-cutting of the last few years. If it is operational, it might be a really low-volume production run, like with the F-117. >Note, since the latest Popular Science credits the 'A-17' with having a GE-120 >engine, the implication is that the GE-120 continued in development, or even >was completely developed BEFORE the ATF competition was over (because it says >that the Chris Gibson North Sea sighting, in August 1989, may have been an >'A-17'). If that sighting was an A-17, it could have been a proto with a current generation engine, like an F110, installed. On the other hand, you'd want to integrate the definitive engine as soon as possible in order to do proper low-observability testing. Regarding the saucer vehicle article in Pop. Mechanics, Larry wrote: >So the story was good actually, except that it was a bit shallow, as there were >other disk shaped spacecraft and aircraft that were studied that they didn't >include in the piece. They just had the standard ones that everybody knows >about. I hadn't heard or seen anything about the Mach 4 Lockheed design that's in the story, so that was news to me. I guess the major disk-shaped spacecraft that comes to mind is the GE lenticular command module/RV for the original (Army/JPL) Apollo program, which I didn't see mentioned in the article. Are there others for which some information is available? And finally, I don't want to go down the Bob Lazar rathole, but what exactly is supposed to propel his little gizmo? I'm assuming a nuclear power source, but how is that applied to the propulsion problem? Again, I'm not trying to start a discussion on the viability of Lazar, but if we make the assumption that the thing exists, how is it supposed to work? George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | Mobile Systems Business | Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@tnpubs.enet.dec.com | ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #172 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).