From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #176 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 3 January 1995 Volume 05 : Number 176 In this issue: Re: "Fantasy Island" ?!? Re: "fantasy island" ?!? New U-2 Book Native American Origin and Migration Review of USMTF ICP MT94-022 How code-names are used Boscombe Down Crash Re: Boscombe Down Crash Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #175 Listserver/Usenet Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #175 (fwd) Mirror the list to the internet. Re: gatewaying skunk-works to a.c.a51 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 23:01:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: "Fantasy Island" ?!? I was a little bit "fast" again, and sent an 'outdated' version of the list. Here are the updates: OL-RU - Beale AFB, California, U-2 and SR-71, redesignated 4/1976: 99th SRS, 9th SRW, SAC, combining all operational U-2 and SR-71 until the SR-71s retirement 01/26/1990, SAC became part of the ACC in 1992, and the 9th SRW was redesignated 9th RW / 9th OG, with its Headquarter at Beal AFB, with the 1st RS at Beal AFB, with U-2 and T-38, the 5th RS at RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus (ex Det 3), with U-2, the 6th RS at Osan AB, South Korea (ex Det 2), with U-2, and the 99th RS at Beal AFB, with U-2, (OL-RU maybe short for Operating Location - Reconnaissance, USA) OL-RK - Kadena AB, Okinawa, Japan, U-2 and SR-71, also known as: OL-8, (OLRK), later to Det 1, (disestablished ?), (OL-RK maybe short for Operating Location - Reconnaissance, Kadena) OL-UK - RAF Alconbury, UK, U-2, previously designated 95th TRS, 17th RW, (inactivated 09/15/1993, while operations continue as OL-UK), (OL-UK obviously short for Operating Location - United Kingdom) Det 1 - Kadena AB, Okinawa, Japan, U-2 and SR-71, ex OL-8, OL-RK, (OLRK) Det 2 - Osan AB, South Korea, 9th SRW, redesignated 6th RS, 9th RW, U-2 Det 3 - Ramey AFB, Puerto Rico, U-2, (HASP-deployment 1958, MIDAS-deployment and HiCAT-deployment), moved to: - RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus, 9th SRW, redesignated 5th RS, 9th RW, U-2 Det 4 - Plattsburgh AFB, New York, U-2, (HASP-deployment), moved to: - Ezeiza AB, Argentina, U-2, (HASP-deployment 9/11/58 to 8/1959 and 5/1960 to 6/1960), moved to: - RAF Mildenhall, UK, 99th SRS, 9th SRW, established 3/1979, U-2 and SR-71A, (the U-2s moved 1980 to RAF Alconbury, UK, becoming the 95th TRS, 17th RW, 1991 to OL-UK), 1980 - 1991 only SR-71 OL-x - Taif, Saudi Arabia, 1700th RW(P), U-2 (during Desert Shield/Desert Storm), missions were code named 'Camel Hump' As far as I know, only U-2Rs (especially 'Senior Spear' and 'Senior Span' equipped ELINT/SIGINT aircraft) are flying out of RAF Akrotiri. Their missions were code named "Olive Harvest" at one point. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 18:12:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: "fantasy island" ?!? As much as I hate to follow up on my own stuff, here are some more corrections. Thanks to John Stone, I looked up my sources and found that the OL-RU designation was Utapao AB, Thailand, not Beal AFB, CA, even though they moved back there, finally. So, here we go again: OL-RK - Kadena AB, Okinawa, Japan, U-2 and SR-71, also known as: OL-8, OL-KA, (OLKA), (OLRK), later to Det 1, (disestablished ?), (OL-8 became OL-RK on 10/30/1970, later changed to OL-KA), (OL-RK stands for "Operating Location - Ryukyys", a chain of islands, Okinawa is part of); source 1 and 2 OL-KA - Kadena AB, Okinawa, Japan, U-2 and SR-71, also known as: OL-8, OL-RK, (OLRK), (OLKA), later to Det 1, (disestablished ?), (OL-RK became OL-KA on 10/21/1971, to Det 1 08/1974), (OL-KA stands for "Operating Location - Kadena"); source 1 and 2 OL-RU - Utapao AB, Thailand, U-2, previously known as: OL-20 (at Bien Hoa, Vietnam, moved to Utapao AB in 07/1970), (redesignated 99th SRS, 11/1972, and moved back to Beal AFB, CA) (OL-RU stands for "Operating Location R____ Utapao" ?); source 3 OL-CH - Taif, Saudi Arabia, 1700th RW(P), U-2, (during Desert Shield/Desert Storm), missions were code named 'Camel Hump', (OL-CH stands for "Operating Location - Camel Hump"); source 1 and 4 OL-UK - RAF Alconbury, UK, U-2, previously designated 95th TRS, 17th RW, (inactivated 09/15/1993, while operations continue as OL-UK), (OL-UK stands for "Operating Location - United Kingdom"); source 5 Sources: 1) email from John Stone 2) Lockheed SR-71 - The Secret Missions Exposed, by Paul F. Crickmore 3) Dragon Lady - The History of the U-2 Spyplane, by Chris Pocock 4) Gulf Air War Debrief, World Air Power Journal, Editor: Stan Morse 5) United States Air Force Yearbook 1994 - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 10:45:00 EST Subject: New U-2 Book <<<<<< Attached TEXT file follows >>>>>> File item: NEWBOOK.TXT 12/27/94 10:37AM Chris Pocock, author of DRAGON LADY - THE HISTORY OF THE U-2 SPYPLANE, is working on a sequel for publication in 1995. I don't know how many U-2 people lurk on this list but maybe there are some who can help Chris with the new book. The original book, the result of many years research, was very well-received by those of us who worked in the U-2 program and the new one promises to be even better. The following is excerpted from Chris's letter. (I have no commercial interest in this book and I suspect Chris will be lucky if he breaks even on expenses. My interest lies in getting a great story told.) Joe Donoghue - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CHRIS POCOCK tel/fax 01895 259317 intnl. +44 1895 259317 Dragon's Dream Grove Lane Uxbridge UB8 3RG 14 December 1994 U.K. We may have spoken previously about my ambition to write another book. That ambition was fueled by two visits to Palmdale, CA this year. The first, in May, was to attend a reunion of the first group of operation- al U-2 pilots. This taught me that the early days have still not been truly recorded for posterity. The second, in October, was to attend a ceremony where the Skunk Works handed over the first three re-engined U-2Rs to the Air Force. This is yet another new lease on life for the jet, which will surely now become the longest-serving military air- plane ever! Well, I'm pleased to say that I was contacted recently by .... Publishing and we have agreed to revise and update DRAGON LADY. ... does good books, and keeps them in print, I have therefore taken a "semi-sabbatical" from my main occupation ... to make this happen. The new edition will be a larger format hardback, with many more phot- ographs and drawings,and a considerably expanded set of appendices where I hope to include many more names, numbers, data and other stuff that could not be included before. I shall be revising the entire text, to include as much of the new historical information I have gathered since 1989 as possible. You may have contributed to that process already by answering my questions, for which my grateful thanks! .... Also, I shall write a new final chapter, bringing the ongoing U-2 story right up to date, with coverage of Desert Storm, Senior Span, the U-2S, and so on. I would dearly love to expand the book even further, by including mat- erial gleaned from official archives, especially on the first ten years of the programme. I have launched an effort to get more U-2 history officially declassified, but it's not clear whether I will succeed. (If you feel qualified to help in this effort, please contact me!). Depend- ing on the amount released, we will incorporate it in "DRAGON LADY MK.II", or possibly do another, smaller book which examines the fine detail of, say, the CIA's operational history. YOU can help me by doing the following now: 1. Search your attics, cupboards and drawers for photographs, draw- ings and any other visual material relating to the U-2. I can include many more pictures of people and places, as well as planes, in this new edition. Send me anything you can! I promise to faithfully return all material as soon as possible - those of you who helped with the first edition can testify that I keep this promise! 2. Review your copy of DRAGON LADY and tell me if I got anything wrong. Most of you complimented me on the accuracy first time around, but I know there were some mistakes! Your short written notes and comments will do - if there is anything that needs longer explanation, simply send me a quick note asking me to telephone you, which I am happy to do at my expense. (Please "flag" the offending text in your copy so that you can easily refer to it when I call). You were part of the U-2 story. Please take an hour or so, to help me tell the story better. CSP (End of quoted letter) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If I don't get too much flack for putting this on the net, Maybe I'll hunt and peck a separate appeal from Chris regarding his need for help in getting the U-2 archives opened. By the way - I worked on the U-2 program in Taiwan in the sixties. jdonoghue@draper.com ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 16:40:19 EST Subject: Native American Origin and Migration Hello Don, Thank you for the "horseradish tree" information. I'll keep passing chile-heads messages. Our joint office here is more lenient with connecting to mailing lists through the Internet. Good news, I think!?!? I found my research paper from April 1993, subject above. It was prepared on an electric typewriter instead of on my PC, which explains why I couldn't find on diskette. Anyway, I can copy it and some of the reference material. Areas include phenotyping, blood group work, language studies, DNA comparisons, and Siberian tribes. I'll quote from my teacher, Carolyn Buchanan, who is retiring soon from Cochise College: "We may live to see a change in textbooks. Some elementary school books now say 25-30,000 YBP. There never was a problem with accepting Australian "raft/boat" people at 40K - perhaps reluctance for an earlier NA(North American) date is residual of "Moundbuilder" mentality - i.e., wrong to have taken the land from people who were here as long as Europeans were in Europe. You have highlighted a problem of research, science, archaeology, and learning in general - a reluctance to accept change in old ideas. Archaeologists could save face by admitting they didn't have all the evidence - instead some try to ignore or debase research that doesn't "fit". Of course they do have a lot to lose!" I'm fairly sure one of the mailing lists, perhaps SKEPTICS or FORTEANA, will have postings on this subject. I'll keep my eyes peeled and take any heat from the government types. This is pure research! Ciao, Terry /1607MST/2307UTC(Zulu)/20Dec94. ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 16:56:08 EST Subject: Review of USMTF ICP MT94-022 The ICP adds one new USMTF message, the MIJIWARNREP (MIJI Warning Report); adds four new sets (ORGID, MIJITYPE, SYSAFCTD, and DURATION); makes changes to the USMTF message, the AMMOMALFUNCREP (Major Ammuni- tion Malfunction - Initial Report); changes to existing sets (5EAACT, EAACTY, LOCATION, MIJITYP, EFDT); a change to an unknown set (CHANJAMD), and changes to field formats. Note: Set CHANJAMD (Frequency/Channel Affected) is a new set which should be marked "PROPOSED". EVALUATION 1. This apparently NATO sponsored new USMTF message (MIJIWARNREP) mirrors and amplifies somewhat the existing Joint Electronic Warfare Center (JEWC) USMTF message (MIJIFEEDER). A message map comparison follows: MIJIFEEDER (current message) MIJIWARNREP (proposed message) RPTUNIT (reporting unit) ORGID (unit providing the report) MIJITYP (MIJI type) MIJITYPE (MIJI incident type) ROUTE (geographic location) LOCATION (geographic location) MIJIPRM (MIJI parametrics) CHANJAMD (MIJI parametrics) MIJISAT (satellite related) SYSAFCTD (systems affected: COMM, MIJINAV (NAVAIDS affected) DATA, IFF, NAVAD, OTHER, MIJIEO (electro-optic related) RADAR, and WARN) Analysis: All of the new information in the proposed new USMTF message, MIJIWARNREP, either already exists in the current USMTF message, MIJIFEEDER, or may be included as segment, nested segment, and or new sets/fields. 2. On page 16 the segment marking should end with set DURATION, and the letter "L" should become "M". 3. On page 28 the example for set LOCATION in field one is "STD". This does not match any Table A code on page 31, but almost fits "ESTD". 4. On page 45, the set CHANJAMD page, should be marked "PROPOSED". END Terry ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Sun, 1 Jan 95 11:31:43 PST Subject: How code-names are used How code-names are assigned (and some Air Force leaks) ______________________________________________________ by Paul McGinnis, January 1, 1995 We tend to use code-names such as SENIOR CITIZEN or MERIDIAN without understanding how these are assigned. I've done some research on this and here's what I've found. (Please note that this information refers to how the Department of Defense does things. It does not include how code-names are assigned by the Department of Energy or the CIA.) One source that's reasonably available is Title 32, Code of Federal Regulations, Appendix C (to Section 159a). Look in your library for the grey volumes dated 7-1-94. Based on that source and others, I've found that they are assigned by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. There are actually 3 types of code-names, which are: (1) Classified single word codewords. I had wondered why the Air Force replaced some codewords with euphemisms like "advanced program evaluation". Here's some example of what I mean: Old name -----> New name (same PE #) ________ ________ ___________ CENTENNIAL "applied technology and integration" 0305142F OMEGA "advanced program evaluation" 0207591F BERNIE "combined advanced applications" 0305172F This has occurred with current programs, but the older historical codewords haven't yet been revised. Apparently, the Air Force has screwed up for a few years and mistakenly listed single word codewords in budget documents. That means that the following codewords I've found in USAF budget documents since 1980 are quite sensitive: * AURORA (this was definitely a slip up! Classified funding for the B-2, no Program Element number listed) * OMEGA (PE 0207591F -- some kind of tactical program, possibly an aircraft). * CENTENNIAL (PE 0305142F -- intelligence program) * CAVALRY (PE 0305185F -- intelligence program) * GENTRY (PE 0101816F -- the 0101xxxF program number puts it in the category of offensive strategic programs. (Ah, the nuclear glory days of a decade ago...)) * LEO (PE 0102822F -- Reagan-era strategic intelligence program for the nuclear war planners) * MERIDIAN (PE 0603105F -- strategic nuclear program) * OLYMPIC (PE 0603111F -- another nuclear program) * BERNIE (PE 0305172F -- yet another intelligence program) None of the codewords I mentioned are abbreviations, i.e., the LEO program is not "Low Earth Orbit". Also, I'm aware that NSA uses 5-letter codewords for sensitive SIGINT programs, such as DINAR. Another example of a leak involving a codeword is when the Navy released some material to me that indicated they had censored data on a project with the codeword INFRARED (part of the new ship self defense program). (2) Unclassified 2 word nicknames, such as SENIOR TREND or COPPER CANYON (a USAF hypersonic research program). Of particular interest is the following (found in the reference listed above): "A combination of two separate words, which is assigned an unclassified meaning and is employed only for unclassified administrative, morale, or public information purposes...A nickname is not designed to achieve a security objective." (3) Exercise terms, such as "Red Flag" used for training at Nellis AFB. None of these are single word terms. The guide lines for choosing 2 word nicknames, such as SENIOR RUBY (a U-2 SIGINT program) are interesting -- among the words of wisdom are: "A nickname must be chosen with sufficient care to ensure that it does not: (a) Express a degree of bellicosity inconsistent with traditional American ideals or current foreign policy. (b) Convey connotations offensive to good taste or derogatory to a particular group, sect, or creed. (c) Convey connotations offensive to our allies or other Free World nations." So, I guess MAGNUM DEATH, HAVE PENIS, and SUSHI SUPRISE are out... On another subject - as far as Groom Lake goes -- here's something to ponder: We know that Groom was used for the U-2 in the 1950s, the SR-71 in the early 1960s, and various Stealth stuff in the late 1970s and early 1980s. What was Groom used for in the late 1960s and early 1970s? In some research I've been doing with Department of Energy material, I'm picking up hints that Groom Lake was used for unknown classified experiments conducted by Los Alamos National Laboratory, during that period. This is interesting, because LANL doesn't do much with nuclear weapons design (which is usually handled by Sandia National Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.) Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com ********************************************************************** Anonymous FTP access to files dealing with excessive military secrecy is available from Internet host ftp.shell.portal.com (IP address 156.151.3.4) in the /pub/trader directory. Read the 00readme files for descriptions of the files. Writings from Glenn Campbell, author of the "Area 51 Viewer's Guide" are available in /pub/trader/secrecy/psychospy. ------------------------------ From: James Easton Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 0:52 BST Subject: Boscombe Down Crash The following extract is from the January/February 1995 edition of UFO Magazine (UK): STRANGE GOINGS-ON AT BOSCOMBE DOWN At about 11.00 p.m. on Monday 26 September 1994, a small twin-tail, fighter- sized aircraft crashed onto the runway at Boscombe Down. By daylight, the aircraft had been covered over, apart from it's twin fins, and all roads around the airfield had been sealed off. Shortly after the crash an unmarked, civilian registered (CIA operated?) Boeing 737 and a similarly anonymous DC-8 visited and two days later the wreck was loaded onto a C-5 Galaxy and flown to Air Force Plant 42 at Palmdale, California. The secrecy surrounding the incident has led to speculation that the aircraft involved was a TR-3A, the existence of which the U.S. government has yet to officially acknowledge. Credit: Air Force Monthly, Nov '94 [END] Best wishes for '95 James. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: TEXJE@VAXB.HW.AC.UK Internet: JAMES.EASTON@STAIRWAY.CO.UK - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: jackg@holobyte.com Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 14:14:41 -0800 Subject: Re: Boscombe Down Crash A person told me recently that one day, while viewing Area 51, he saw a small fighter size twin tail aircraft land on the runway after deploying a drag chute and then taxing (sp?) into the scoot & hide hanger near the runway. The person couldn't make out any detail or specific color of the aircraft other than what I just described. This sounds like it could be a similar aircraft to the one that crashed at Boscombe Down. Any opinions? "I've done it over and over.. You see, I kill breeders." "God is dead." -Nietzche "Nietzche is dead." -God Lumber ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Boscombe Down Crash Author: James Easton at Internet Date: 1/3/95 12:52 AM The following extract is from the January/February 1995 edition of UFO Magazine (UK): STRANGE GOINGS-ON AT BOSCOMBE DOWN At about 11.00 p.m. on Monday 26 September 1994, a small twin-tail, fighter- sized aircraft crashed onto the runway at Boscombe Down. By daylight, the aircraft had been covered over, apart from it's twin fins, and all roads around the airfield had been sealed off. Shortly after the crash an unmarked, civilian registered (CIA operated?) Boeing 737 and a similarly anonymous DC-8 visited and two days later the wreck was loaded onto a C-5 Galaxy and flown to Air Force Plant 42 at Palmdale, California. The secrecy surrounding the incident has led to speculation that the aircraft involved was a TR-3A, the existence of which the U.S. government has yet to officially acknowledge. Credit: Air Force Monthly, Nov '94 [END] Best wishes for '95 James. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: TEXJE@VAXB.HW.AC.UK Internet: JAMES.EASTON@STAIRWAY.CO.UK - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: johnpike@clark.net (John Pike) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 19:32:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #175 Is there some particular reason that Skunk Works Digest is not mirrored to the alt.conspiracy.area51 usenet newsgroup? It would seem to me that this would be a valuable contribution to usenet, and it would also provide a means of stimulating more contributions to the Digest. I am given to understand that a number of the sci.space... newsgroups have converged with a series of listserver digests, and that folks are happy with this confergence. I will separately send a posting on this. Just a thought. ------------------------------ From: johnpike@clark.net (John Pike) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 19:42:47 -0500 Subject: Listserver/Usenet >From: Dale Amon >Date: Mon, 26 Dec 94 02:43:03 GMT >To: johnpike@clark.net (John Pike) > > >I'll give you a bit of a nutshell of how the thing is organized. > >There are several newsgroups > > sci.space.tech > sci.space.policy > sci.space.news > sci.space.science > sci.space.shuttle > >These are mirrored around the world quite quickly. Most sites are now using >"nntp" (Net News Transfer Protocol) rather than the old store and forward >UUCP (Unix to Unix Copy Protocal). It is also that case that most modern >news servers do what are known as "trickle feeds", ie then pass on an article >to the sites which they feed as soon as they recieve it. For direct >connections this is more efficient and doesn't cause as much of a clog in the >bandwith as there would be if you batched them. However if a feed is over >a dialup line (which is what the old UUCP was mainly for) batching is the >only way to go - you set the batches to ship low priority news (UUCP also >handled private email) only at off peak hours when rates are lower. > >In practice, if you post an article, it will reach anywhere on a backbone or >on a major thoroughfare of the internet in a matter of minutes. Distant sites, >ie sites on dialups (internet has different ideas about what distant is :-) >might not get it for hours or even until over night. But most of the >key players on these groups have direct highspeed connections. > >This would all be very simple, except - there is a second *parallel* structure. > > Space Tech Digest > Space Policy Digest > Space News Digest > Space Science Digest > Space Shuttle Digest > >that collect articles from the netnews into "magazines" which are sent out >to a list of subscribers. Historically the two were completely seperate. >The digests grew up on the arpa net; the news groups on the UUCP network. >When the two first were gatewayed, agreements were struck up to mirror each >others postings. As time went on, the mirroring became so efficient that the >two are essentially clones, just different ways of delivering the same >information. > >Up until about a year (two???) ago, there was only one digest, Space Digest. >It was a combination of most of the sci.space hierarchy at the time. But >due to the volume of drivel getting too large, we went through a >reorganization. The Space Digest side fell out of step until Mark Maimone >got the new digest software up and running, one digest for each of the >news groups. > >I'm a digest reader - I tend to "batch" my reading and posting time anyway >because I'm far too busy during most normal working hours. So my discussions >with people tend to be point - counterpoint at intervals of a day. Wherease >those who tend to read it via nntp directly, like Henry, might respond >very quickly if they happen to be on line. > >If you're interested in the what has gone before - I'm also the archivist. >(In fact I'm adding a few "missing issues" and reindexing as we speak. That's >why I happen to have time to chat a lot :-) > >You can get v1 - v17 of Space Digest on WWW from > > http://www.IslandOne.org/SpaceDigest > >or via ftp from > > ftp://www.music.qub.ac.uk/pub/SpaceDigestArchive > > ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 20:53:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #175 (fwd) Once upon a time John Pike shaped the electrons to say... >Is there some particular reason that Skunk Works Digest is not mirrored to >the alt.conspiracy.area51 usenet newsgroup? It would seem to me that this Quite deliberate... The mailing list is isolated and relatively controlled, the alt.group is not. And frankly, it isn't very high in quality, whereas this list tends to be. This list is meant for the discussion of advanced aircraft, and in part will touch on Area 51 and similar topics. But that is not the charter of the lis. >means of stimulating more contributions to the Digest. One reason the list is popular with it's long time readers (myself included) is that it is NOT very busy. It is low voluime, with a high signal-noise ratio. If you changed that you will find many of the contributors leaving. >I am given to understand that a number of the sci.space... newsgroups have >converged with a series of listserver digests, and that folks are happy with Different circumstances, and would any of those sci.space groups be moderated? There is a major difference between sci.* and alt.* on USEnet BTW, you should check into news.announce.newusers, and news.* in general. Merging with an alt.group is rarely, if ever, a good idea. In case you can't tell, I completely oppose such a move. - -- megazone@world.std.com megazone@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164 "I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!" Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories Geek Code 2.1: GTW/H d-- H+>++ s++:++ !g p? au+ a24 w++@ v++@ C++(++++)$ UU+$>UL++++ P+ L>++ 3 E N+++ K+++ W-- M- V-- -po+ Y+>++ t+@ 5@ j@ R@ G' tv@ b++(+++) D+@ B--- e++ u** h- f+ r@ n+(----) y++@(*) ------------------------------ From: Illya Kuryakin Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:02 -0800 Subject: Mirror the list to the internet. We'd better not. That'd kill the conversation. Bleaach. Ackk! Phhhtt!! Illya ------------------------------ From: "Philip R. Moyer" Date: Tue, 03 Jan 95 19:43:38 -0800 Subject: Re: gatewaying skunk-works to a.c.a51 I disagree strongly with this idea. When I started the skunk-works list it was for the express purpose of getting it *off* Usenet. In addition, gatewaying it onto alt.conspiracy.area51 would destroy much of the credibility it has gained amongst aviation professionals. Many sites already gateway the list onto internal newsgroups. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for you to discuss this with your systems administrator. Cheers, Phil ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #176 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).