From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #178 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 6 January 1995 Volume 05 : Number 178 In this issue: Re: Boscombe Down Crash An-124 Classified cargo Usenet Re: An-124 Classified cargo Re: Questions from Burbank to Vegas Re: National Defense Areas (Air Force) Re: An-124 Classified cargo Re: Questions from Burbank to Vegas RPLY:Re: usenet interface [and administrivia] Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #177 Usenet Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #177 Re: An-124 Classified Cargo Re: RPLY:Re: usenet interface [and administrivia] U-2 archives Ben Rich Re: The Hessdalen lights Ben Rich See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jackg@holobyte.com Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 16:18:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Boscombe Down Crash Subject: Re: Boscombe Down Crash Author: Jack Gibbons at Spectrum Date: 1/3/95 2:14 PM A person told me recently that one day, while viewing Area 51, he saw a small fighter size twin tail aircraft land on the runway after deploying a drag chute and then taxing (sp?) into the scoot & hide hanger near the runway. The person couldn't make out any detail or specific color of the aircraft other than what I just described. This sounds like it could be a similar aircraft to the one that crashed at Boscombe Down. Any opinions? "I've done it over and over.. You see, I kill breeders." "God is dead." -Nietzche "Nietzche is dead." -God Lumber ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Boscombe Down Crash Author: James Easton at Internet Date: 1/3/95 12:52 AM The following extract is from the January/February 1995 edition of UFO Magazine (UK): STRANGE GOINGS-ON AT BOSCOMBE DOWN At about 11.00 p.m. on Monday 26 September 1994, a small twin-tail, fighter- sized aircraft crashed onto the runway at Boscombe Down. By daylight, the aircraft had been covered over, apart from it's twin fins, and all roads around the airfield had been sealed off. Shortly after the crash an unmarked, civilian registered (CIA operated?) Boeing 737 and a similarly anonymous DC-8 visited and two days later the wreck was loaded onto a C-5 Galaxy and flown to Air Force Plant 42 at Palmdale, California. The secrecy surrounding the incident has led to speculation that the aircraft involved was a TR-3A, the existence of which the U.S. government has yet to officially acknowledge. Credit: Air Force Monthly, Nov '94 [END] Best wishes for '95 James. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: TEXJE@VAXB.HW.AC.UK Internet: JAMES.EASTON@STAIRWAY.CO.UK - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Larry Setlow Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 17:26:37 -0800 Subject: An-124 Classified cargo Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 14:13 EST From: Jay.Waller@analog.com I just read a story that was run by the AP a couple of weeks ago. It says that on Dec.22 an An-124 delivered a classified cargo to the Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville,Ala. Sometime over the break, I heard a story on the radio that the US had purchased a Russian SAM system (I seem to remember they said "S-300"; they also said it was their equivalent to the US Patriot. No guarantee of accuracy of any of my recollection). Redstone would be the natural place for such a thing. I wonder if it was BBC Newshour that I was listening to, that had more specific (if not necessarily correct) info than the AP. ------------------------------ From: ak336@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Dill) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 21:16:13 -0500 Subject: Usenet Mary has made a very important point! Nearly any jerk with a computer and a modem can now access the Usenet (and it's getting worse every day). If you want evidence of this just go browse the Usenet! Let's keep this place sane as long as we can! I also must say that without imput from Mary and others like her, I'd soon cancel my subscription. Regards, John - -- "Negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full!" ------------------------------ From: Illya Kuryakin Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 18:25:38 -0800 Subject: Re: An-124 Classified cargo I know they're shipping a large amount of spent fuel-rods (that just happen to contain percentages of weapons grade material) on a regular basis... this from the evening news. They filmed the first shipment which was carried by a USAF transport (C-141?). It could also be nuke warheads, we're helping them 'dispose' of them from what I hear, also from the news services, though I'd be at a loss to quote/identify any of these broadcasts. And given that the Russians, et al, are willing to sell you everything but their last roll of toilet paper, we could just as easily be buying their military technology for reasons I wouldn't even begin to try to second-guess. I heard by way of rumor that a Mig29 was sold to some 'collector' for $20K... *sigh*... some people have all the fun. Rick Illya Kuryakin | "HA!!" kuryakin@halcyon.com | | Ruby | Galactic Gumshoe ------------------------------ From: Michael G Cancellier Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:42:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Questions from Burbank to Vegas Tom, What I think you saw was Lockheed's Helendale RCS Test facility. Another Skunker and I made a recon of the area in late '91 I think. The dish you saw was actually not all that small, as I remember we thought it was pretty large. If I remember correctly the dish was next to a resonably large hanger, with other stuff farther down-range. It was hard to see anything from our vantage behind the fences, and were on the move to keep the security folks from getting too anxious about two off-road motorcyclists standing in the pegs looking over the fence. Although I now live 67 feet underground babysitting my missiles, I am still interested in goings-on in the Mojave. If any- body sees anything unusual, drop me a line. Mike Cancellier 321 Missile Group Grand Forks AFB, ND Cancelli@badlands.NoDak.edu ------------------------------ From: Michael G Cancellier Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:47:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: National Defense Areas (Air Force) Paul, I think you are reading to much into the NDA thing. Think of it as a police line. It is there to control entry not to hide a piece of classified equipment. I have seen NDA exercises, and they are not much. They set up the sign and post guards. No big deal. It is set up to protect the asset, whatever it is, from people like the crazy clown-suited, ball-peen hammer wielding Catholic Priestnuke protestor we had visit last Easter. One note of warning: don't enter an NDA without permission of the entry controller: it could be detrimental to your health. Mike Cancellier Not speaking for my employer in any way. cancelli@badlands.NoDak.edu ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 21:41:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: An-124 Classified cargo Excerpt (without permission) from a full page (pg 60) article in the last AW&ST, Jan. 2, 1995: U.S ARMY TO ASSESS RUSSIAN SA-10 SAM SYSTEM Dave Hughes/Boston The U.S. Army Missile & Space Intelligence Center at Redstone Arsenal, Ala., has obtained the Russian equivalent of a Patriot missile system for evaluation at a time when China is modifying these S-300s (SA-10s) for export to third world nations. A chartered Volga-Dnepr Airlines Antonov An-124 landed at Huntsville International Airport one night last month, disgorged its cargo of one Russian SAM system into the hands of U.S. government officials and closed its doors by daybreak. But the aircraft did not take off for the next three days, and the presence of a Russian jumbo jet at a small U.S. airfield attracted a lot of attention from Dec. 19-21. [...] They also say: - - the missile system was: S-300PMU (SA-10'Grumble'), designed by the Moscow-based Almaz OKB; - - cost: $50-million; - - aranged by a Canadian arms dealer; - - shipped by: Beltekhexport, Belorussian state owned company; - - on behalf of: BDM International, Inc., McLean, VA, who made quiet deliveries of these kind to the US. Defense Dept. for many years; - - former U.S. Defense Secretary Frank Carlucci is chairman of BDM, but the contracts for foreign missiles predate his arrival at the firm; - - the reason for using the international airport (10,000 ft. runway) instead of the Redstone Arsenal airfield (7,300 ft.) might lay in the capabilities of the A-124-100; - - the reason for the 3 day stay was, that the HeavyLift-VolgaDnepr's An-124 was waiting for its next mission -- a humanitarian airlift from New York to Moscow; - - the Russian government and Belorussia's president Lukashenko were opposed to the sale of S-300 to the U.S. military; - - the missiles will be used for performance testing, to develop electronic countermeasures, build a database of RF and IR signatures, train Wild Weasel crews, etc. Another quote: With the Cold War over, Russian weapons are readily available at extremly low prices, acording to U.S. defense officials. Weapons brokers in the U.S. are now offering defense contractors all sorts of Soviet equipment for testing. One contractor noted that his company shuns these freelance suppliers and sticks with U.S. military sources to provide any foreign weapons needed for testing. It is often difficult, however, to obtain a Russian weapon system from the U.S. military for testing because the inventory of these systems is so limited. When weapons are provided for testing, they are shipped by air or, if the test site is close by, transported by truck. Usually the shape of a weapon is disguised and then covered with a tarp for shipping. Scuds have also been acquired by the U.S. government, and several have been fired in tests at White Sands Missile Range, N.M. However there are not enough to meet the demand, so the military has developed its own Scud surrogate using reverse engineering techniques. Surrogates also have been developed for SS-21 missile, TEL and reloader. [...] Quite interesting. :) - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 22:07:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Questions from Burbank to Vegas The facility near Helendale, CA, was most likely the (secret ?) Lockheed RCS research / test facility. TRADER (Paul McGinis) wrote a trip-report about his visit there, which I guess was posted here before. You can get this report at his ftp site: ftp.shell.portal.com Somewhere in the directory /pub/trader (or a sub directory) The file name is: lockheed-rcs-report - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Ray.W.Maynard@cdc.com Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 22:30:12 -0600 Subject: RPLY:Re: usenet interface [and administrivia] Kean, I work at the B-2 CTF on Edwards AFB, so I have a natural interest in the skunk-works topic. For that reason, I issue the following plea. PLEASE _don't_ move skunks to a WWW. I, for one, don't have WWW software nor do I have access to any InterNet access site that provides WWW access. I have to live with basic text-mode InterNet with only LISTSERVs (like skunk-works) and anonymous FTP access. If you move to a WWW basis, I'm sure you'll lose a significant number of readers and contributors. Ray (cute saying goes here) ------------------------------ From: Bill Ranck Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 08:54:55 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #177 In a message skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu said: > > Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 4 January 1995 Volume 05 : Number 177 > From: "J. Pharabod" > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 95 18:06:39 MET > Subject: The Hessdalen lights > > In a serious ex-Soviet physics review, Physics-Uspekhi 37 (5) > 517-520 (1994) there is an article "Long-lived light phenomena in > You will find below an interesting excerpt from the article. > > during darkness. This glow has been called the 'Hessdalen phenomenon'. > It usually occurs in the evening, during the night, and early in the > morning, most frequently in the Autumn, Winter, and early Spring, i.e. > the dark period. > Three types of strange fires have been observed. The first resembles > a bright yellow sphere or nucleus and can exist for 1-2 h, moving > along the valley and changing its position at 5-10 min intervals. The > second type has a bright whitish-blue colour and occasionally flickers. > The third type consists of several fires linked to one another. The > Hessdalen fires began to appear at the end of 1981 and were observed > several hundred times between 1981 and 1984. They began to vanish in > 1984, and in 1985 only a few instances were observed. Nowadays the Is it just me, or does this sound like aurora? I mean the "Northern Lights" not the possible aircraft. Seems to me the 81 to 84 time frame matches a sunspot maximum pretty well . . . Sorry if others have already suggested this. I only get Skunkworks in digest form. While I'm de-lurking, I should state that I definitely am against posting the digest to *any* Usenet newsgroup. It would just create a lot of noise and not add anything constructive here. - -- * Bill Ranck +33.1.69.41.24.26 ranck@earn.net * * Technical Staff, European Academic & Research Network (EARN) Orsay, France * ------------------------------ From: soundy@sybase.com (Richard Soundy) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 11:29:01 Subject: Usenet As John Dill <> said : >I also must say that without imput from Mary and others like her, >I'd soon cancel my subscription. I agree. Richard Soundy Sybase (UK) Ltd. ------------------------------ From: russellk@BIX.com Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 11:08:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #177 >The whole thing looked like some strange runway. I couldn't think of >anything else that would look like this. > The Nazca lines ?? 8-) ============================================== Russell Kay, Technical Editor, BYTE Magazine 1 Phoenix Mill Lane 603-924-2591 Peterborough, NH 03458 fax 603-924-2550 ============= russellk@bix.com =============== ------------------------------ From: Jay.Waller@analog.com Date: Thu, 5 Jan 95 12:26 EST Subject: Re: An-124 Classified Cargo Thanks for the info Andreas. The article says the system is "equivalent of a Patriot" . How equivalent is "equivalent" ? I know the Patriot is getting a little long in the tooth in some aspects,but wasn't aware of anything close to it in the former Soviet arsenal (ie. a mobile,phased array radar SAM). JW *** all opinions are my own *** ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 10:47:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: RPLY:Re: usenet interface [and administrivia] Whoa! No plans afoot at *all* to change skunk-works to a different medium. No newsgroups, no www-only stuff. Just gonna stay the way it is. As we like it. Back to the topic! kean Kean Stump Information Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. (503)-737-4740 ------------------------------ From: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 16:12:00 EST Subject: U-2 archives I don't know if anyone in this group is in a position to help Chris Pocock in his quest to open the U-2 archives but I hope some will find the information in Chris' appeal of interest. I will certainly be awaiting his account of PRC defenses against U-2 flights. We lost 2 U-2s over China during my time in Taiwan. Joe Donoghue <<<<<< Attached TEXT file follows >>>>>> File item: APPEAL.TXT 12/27/94 4:44PM RESEARCHING THE U-2 STORY An appeal for help by Chris Pocock In the preface to my original book DRAGON LADY - THE HISTORY OF THE U-2 SPYPLANE, published in 1989, I noted that "without access to official records, this history of the U-2 program cannot pretend to be defini- tive". However, various insiders in the U-2 program congratulated me on its breadth and accuracy, and encouraged me to "do another one". I have subsequently met and interviewed many more participants in the U-2 story, including British and Chinese personnel. I also helped preserve one of only 11 remaining early-model U-2 aircraft in the UK in 1992. Through this whole process, I seem to have become the 'unofficial' U-2 historian! Nevertheless, for five years I resisted the temptation to "do another one", until I was recently prompted by [name of publisher omitted be- cause I don't know if Chris wants this spread worldwide yet. -JD]. I have now embarked on a revision and update of DRAGON LADY for them, which will be published in later 1995 to coincide with the 40th anni- versary of the U-2's first flight. Following the collapse of the USSR, Comecon and the Warsaw Pact, a world climate which was more conducive to the release of previously- classified information on Cold War operations came into effect. In the US, for instance, CIA director Robert Gates announced significant change to the Agency's historical review process in early 1992. In the former USSR, researchers began gaining access on an ad-hoc basis to ar- chives and participants in formerly secret programs. However, this process does not appear to have had any effect on some significant US archives relating to the U-2 program. Although most of the memoranda relating to political control of the program at higher government levels has been declassified, in response to periodic re- quests from political historians, biographers etc, virtually none of the operational archive has been released. (Except for some material relating to the Cuba Missile Crisis, which was released for research- ers working within that context). There is some debate over the extent to which U-2 operational archives still exist. The Lockheed 'Skunk Works'was obliged to shred a portion of its archive in the mid-1980s in response to a government investiga- tion over improper or non-existent classification. However, I now un- derstand that some significant material relating to early U-2 history remains, held within the U-2 program office and at the company's Rye Canyon storage facility. The US Air Force Historical Research Center maintains unit and command histories relating to the Air Force part of the U-2 story, but the mil- itary did not control the most significant U-2 operations in the time- frame of my interest, which is the 1950s and 1960s. Records also exist within Federal Depositories, and these include CIA documents which were consulted by CIA historian Don Welzenbach when he was assigned to write a history of the U-2 program in the 1980s. This history was subsequently revised and completed by another CIA histori- an, Greg Pedlow, after input from Leo Geary and others. THREE THOUSAND copies of this work were produced, supposedly for internal consumption only within the Agency. Although it remains classified, copies have been circulated outside the Agency to interested parties with the necessary clearance. At a minimum, that document ought to be released! Don Welzenbach (who is now retired) has been given to understand that the only reason for it remaining classified is the foreign government sensitivity, ironic- ally including my own government! If so, I frankly find that argument somewhat disingenuous, considering that the involvement of the UK, Norway, Pakistan, India, Thailand etc has been well-documented in print already, as have all of the 'targets' (USSR, Warsaw Pact, Suez, PRC, Cuba, Dimona, Mururoa, etc). Even if one accepts this constraint, however, it should be possible to release this history after censorship. As long as this censorship were not too crude, the essential elements would be retained eg the story of the development and overflights. Going further, though, I would like to gain access to the original source material in the Federal Archives' and to the remaining material held at Lockheed. The Skunk Works would request release of any such material through its present-day security reporting channels, but be- cause the U-2 was built and flown for the CIA as well as the Air Force, I presume that any such requests would eventually find their way to the original 'customer' at Langley. There is, I believe, a potential logjam here, and I need some well- placed 'sponsors' to help clear it! Why should you help? Hasn't the U-2 story already been told? HELL, NO! For sure. aspects of the story have been told. The politics have been well-covered by Beschloss(1) and others. For photo-interpre- tation and intelligence analysis for the national authorities, there is excellent work by Brugioni.(2) For the Lockheed perspective, the U-2 story forms a (relatively small) part of Kelly Johnson's autobiography, and the more recent book by Ben Rich.(3) But my work concentrates on the development and operational perspective...the amazing work done to create, deploy, maintain and modify this unique aircraft. Apart from mine, the only hardcover book which has ever covered this territory was Frank Powers' autobiography in 1970. I want to highlight the role played by such people as Ozzie Ritland, Leo Geary, Jim Cunningham, John Parangosky, Dick Boehme, Bob Murphy, Stan Beerli, Bud Wheelon... that's just a selection, but they are names you don't hear about in the existing literature. I want to document the overflights: although various participants have recounted their stories from memory, I need access to the archives to check for accuracy, time- frames etc. I already have the "flesh" of the story, but I don't have the "skeleton"! Ironically, I foresee no problem in getting the Soviet side of the story, and the Chinese have published an official history detailing their attempts to combat the U-2 overflights, which has been trans- lated for me. And yet the US Government, which has nothing to lose by releasing details of this major success story, has not yet extended its co-operation. I welcome offers of direct help, or suggestions about how to proceed further. Chris Pocock Dragon's Dream Grove Lane Uxbridge UB8 3RG United Kingdom tel or fax +44 1895 259317 ________________ (1) "Mayday-Eisenhower, Khruschev, and the U-2 Affair"' pub Harper and Row, 1986 (2) such as "Eyeball to Eyeball - The Inside Story of the Cuban Missile Crisis"' pub Random House, 1990 (3) "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich and Leo Janos, pub Little, Brown, 1994 ------------------------------ From: jon@zeus.ladc.lockheed.com (Jonathan Schwartz) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 95 18:53:24 PST Subject: Ben Rich LADC's flag is flying at half-mast today. No official announcement has been made, but people are saying that it is to mark the passing of former "Skunk Works" General Manager Ben Rich today. I assume that he lost his bout with cancer. ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Fri, 06 Jan 95 11:58:04 MET Subject: Re: The Hessdalen lights >Is it just me, or does this sound like aurora? I mean the "Northern >Lights" not the possible aircraft. Seems to me the 81 to 84 time >frame matches a sunspot maximum pretty well . . . >Bill Ranck (Thu, 5 Jan 1995 08:54:55 +0100 (MET)) Auroras are high altitude phenomena (the lower border is located at a height of about 60 miles) and would have been seen from a large area of Norway. The Hessdalen lights were seen only from the valley. In several occasions they were seen below the ridge of the mountains surrounding the valley. I got some info from a Norwegian member of the SKEPTIC list (see below). J. Pharabod ._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._. > 1) Is there a NATO base in central Norway, near Hessdalen ? > 2) Could the (ex)-Soviet have made strange experiments over Norway ? > Maybe our free Europe subscriber Stig Haugdahl has some info ? ^^^^^^^^^^^ hehe, so you noticed that one? No NATO bases in central norway as far as I know. There are no national military bases in the area either. About 100 miles south of Hessdalen is a large army shooting/test field, but I doubt that could account for the phenomena. Soviet experiments in central norway? Veeeery unlikely. As far as I know, Hessdalen is a standard norwegian valley, nothing special about the geography, geology or social structure. A report on the phenomena was published in norway some years ago, I don't know if it is the same that Pharabod is referring, I never bothered to buy it. Might be a mistake of me. I've heard in a radio programme that the lights are still there, but nobody bothers to report them anymore. The villagers were not too happy about the media coverage. stig ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 16:25:14 -0800 Subject: Ben Rich I don't want to give the impression that I'm the proper person to eulogize Ben, but I'd like to say a few things. I have had the pleasure of personally talking to Ben at length on several occasions. Ben was VERY personable! He enjoyed being with enthusiasts, and never seemed to tire of all the questions! I guess that was because he was a major aerospace enthusiast himself! He really put you at ease when you talked to him, and he was honest as well with his response. He could also be very forceful and opinionated, yet very humble as well. I was jealous of the young Skunk Works engineers of today, when he called them "my kids". It was hard to tell the difference between the way he talked about enjoying time with his grandchildren and the way he talked about teaching young Skunk Works engineers about airplane design. He loved both. He told me that we could do anything in aerospace that we had the will to do. I think that sums it up nicely. Larry Smith >LADC's flag is flying at half-mast today. No official announcement has been >made, but people are saying that it is to mark the passing of former "Skunk >Works" General Manager Ben Rich today. I assume that he lost his bout with >cancer. > >It's confirmed. He died Thursday at Community Memorial Hospital in Ventura, >CA at age 69. ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #178 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).