Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 16 March 1995 Volume 05 : Number 209a In this issue: German Stealth Re: German Stealth Nellis Web Page Re: German Stealth Better A-17 artwork [none] Re: German Stealth (fwd) Re: Better A-17 artwork Re: Article: Stealth Helicopter at Groom Lake This list has been cloned Changing Re: This list has been cloned Nellis Web Page Re: This list has been cloned F4 phantoms aerodynamics AW&ST February 27 AW&ST March 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk (John Burtenshaw) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:38:03 +0000 Subject: German Stealth Hi Just read in Flight International of a classified program during the 1980's to develop a stealth fighter for the Luftwaffe. The prime contractor was Daimler-Benz Aerospace and the project was called Firefly. It never got further than manned wind-tunnel tests. The artist impression of it with the article makes it appear to be in the same class as the F-117 but with a single fin. Looked an interesting concept, I wonder if anyone out there in Skunkers land knows anymore. Cheers John ============================================================================= John Burtenshaw BOURNEMOUTH System Administrator, The Computer Centre UNIVERSITY ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 Packet Radio: G1HOK @ GB7BNM.#45.GBR.EU AMPRnet: G1HOK.ampr.org. [44.131.17.82] Compuserve: 10033,3113 ============================================================================= ------------------------------ From: Geoff.Miller@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:10:07 +0800 Subject: Re: German Stealth John Burtenshaw writes: >It never got further than manned wind-tunnel tests. *Manned* wind tunnel tests? I've never heard of such a thing. How common is that? --Geoff ------------------------------ From: hsapiens@clark.net Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 14:56:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nellis Web Page I haven't seen this posted to this list yet so I thought I'd mention that Nellis Air Force Base now operates a WWW server. The URL is . There's not a whole lot there that you haven't probably already viewed elsewhere but it is refreshinging to see the Air Force trying harder to be friendly to interested taxpayers. Some of the hotlinks are new to me as well. Give it a look but be advised that there is a statement indicating that all traffic is closely monitored. BTW, if this info. has been posted here before, I apologize but Clark.net's T1 has been down recently and I may not have seen it... -- | $ | |---. ,---. ,---. ,---. . ,---. ,---. ,---. | "The secret is to bang | | `---. ,---| | | | |---' | | `---. | the rocks together, guys." ` ' `---' `---^ |---' ` `---' ` ' `---' | -- Douglas Adams | hsapiens@clark.net | ------------------------------ From: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk (John Burtenshaw) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:17:11 +0000 Subject: Re: German Stealth >*Manned* wind tunnel tests? I've never heard of such a thing. >How common is that? I know! It took me by surprise as well but there it is in black and white. *Flight International* magazine doesn't usually make that many errors so I take it as being correct. I've never heard of it either. John ============================================================================= John Burtenshaw BOURNEMOUTH System Administrator, The Computer Centre UNIVERSITY ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 Packet Radio: G1HOK @ GB7BNM.#45.GBR.EU AMPRnet: G1HOK.ampr.org. [44.131.17.82] Compuserve: 10033,3113 ============================================================================= ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 13-Mar-1995 0710 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 07:15:17 EST Subject: Better A-17 artwork I posted a note on 10 March regarding the A-17 line drawing in the February 1995 issue of Air Forces Monthly. AFM's sister publication, Air International, has a larger artists' conception of an A-17, but it's in a half-page advertisement for AFM (making a connection between the A-17 and the late 1994 Boscome Down crash). It's a very well-done bit of art, however, with nice detail. George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler ------------------------------ From: David Lednicer Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:11:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: For the last 2 or 3 days, I have been getting the digest, but when I go to look at it, it is empty! ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:21:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: German Stealth (fwd) Once upon a time John Burtenshaw shaped the electrons to say... >>*Manned* wind tunnel tests? I've never heard of such a thing. >>How common is that? >I know! It took me by surprise as well but there it is in black and white. >*Flight International* magazine doesn't usually make that many errors so I I've seen photos and film clips of manned wind-tunnel tests - so yes, they are done. -- megazone@world.std.com megazone@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164 "I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!" Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the letter body. Geek Code 2.1: GTW/H d-- H+>++ s++:++ !g p? au+ a24 w++@ v++@ C++(++++)$ UU+$>UL++++ P+ L>++ 3 E N+++ K+++ W-- M- V-- -po+ Y+>++ t+@ 5@ j@ R@ G' tv@ b++(+++) D+@ B--- e++ u** h- f+ r@ n+(----) y++@(*) ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 13-Mar-1995 1502 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 15:15:58 EST Subject: Re: Better A-17 artwork Sorry about that folks . . . The Air International with the A-17 artwork (in an ad for Air Forces Monthly) is the February 1995 issue. That issue, and the February '95 AFM is just hitting the newsstands in my part of the world. If all you want is the artwork, buy Air International, because it's significantly bigger that the same item in AFM. Go figure. AFM does have a three-view line drawing, though. Also, for some WWW fun, check out the USAF Wright Laboratory Aeropropulsion Directorate home page: http://podev.appl.wpafb.af.mil:8001/home.html The history page is worth a visit, with pictures of a LACE test rig, hydrogen expander (Suntan?) engine, Aerospaceplane, ASALM, X-7, Bomarc, and ATEGG, not to mention all kinds of jet and piston engines: http://podev.appl.wpafb.af.mil:8001/history.html George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 21:33:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Article: Stealth Helicopter at Groom Lake Er, the B-2 was never tested at Groom Lake. It flew from Palmdale (AF Plant 42) to Edwards AFB on the _televised_ first flight and all testing was done out of EDW. I watched the first takeoff on TV while listening "live" and watched the landing from the Dryden roof. The rollout was pretty heavily covered in the media too, at least here in SoCal. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: joeh@towel.wpd.sgi.com (Joe Heinrich) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:24:03 -0800 Subject: This list has been cloned Well, Time-Warner's attempt. Beside your OJ updates. http://www.pathfinder.com/twep/Features/Skunk_Works/bbs/ -- Joe "Joe" Heinrich Tales of Silicon Valley {Internal access only, unless you can bust the firewall} Heinrich! Don't you have something *better* to do? Flatland: joeh@sgi.com Rotary dial: 415.390.4347 DTMF:SameAsAbove BLM Locator:Building8Lower SnailMail:MS/535, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mt. View, CA 94043 :) Kill all smileys :> ------------------------------ From: "Steven Schultz" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:26:14 -40975532 (CST) Subject: Changing I need to change my E-mail address on the Skunks List. How do I do that? -- Steven.Schultz@mixcom.com - Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin, U.S.A. It's always "justified," when it's by the "winning" side... ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:50:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: This list has been cloned On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Joe Heinrich wrote: >Well, Time-Warner's attempt. Beside your OJ updates. >http://www.pathfinder.com/twep/Features/Skunk_Works/bbs/ Joe, Due to the way the list had been going lately - posts few and far between - I believe the constant UFO related stuff had driven most of the serious posters off the list. The above baudleriztion on TW will surely be the death blow. 'Tis sad. regards, BaDge ------------------------------ From: hsapiens@clark.net Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:46:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nellis Web Page I haven't seen this posted to this list yet so I thought I'd mention that Nellis Air Force Base now operates a WWW server. The URL is . There's not a whole lot there that you haven't probably already viewed elsewhere but it is refreshinging to see the Air Force trying harder to be friendly to interested taxpayers. Some of the hotlinks are new to me as well. Give it a look but be advised that there is a statement indicating that all traffic is closely monitored. I guess I have a dossier now... -- | $ | |---. ,---. ,---. ,---. . ,---. ,---. ,---. | "The secret is to bang | | `---. ,---| | | | |---' | | `---. | the rocks together, guys." ` ' `---' `---^ |---' ` `---' ` ' `---' | -- Douglas Adams | hsapiens@clark.net | ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 11:16:39 MET Subject: Re: This list has been cloned In answer to BaDge (Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:50:08 -0500 (EST)): BaDge puts forward an interesting hypothesis about the recent low rate of postings, however I am not sure that he is right. I have monitored this list for nearly two years, and noticed frequent blanks without any apparent reason. Maybe the moderator could tell us if there has been recently a sharp decrease in the number of subscribers (or of serious subscribers). I suggest other hypotheses. First, a big number of postings were about Aurora. Since the probability of the existence of this craft is decreasing, less people dare initiate a thread about it. The other craft threads are often historical, and people in this group are oriented more towards the future than towards the past. Finally, the Groom Lake thread (which was an important one) has been nearly exhausted, owing to Glenn Campbell and the articles in Popular Science and elsewhere (By the way: in the last issue of the French popularization review for teenagers "Science et Vie Junior" there is a rather big article about Groom Lake, with Glenn Campbell himself on a photograph - first time I see him!). J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:22:10 +0100 Subject: F4 phantoms aerodynamics In the recent jet engine thread somebody said that thicker aero-foils have lower critical mach number (if i'm remembering wrong.) Then the Air Force got F4 with thicker wheels they also got consecutively a wing with a pronounced bump. How will something like that affect an a/c aerodynamics ?? -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund I | sp2stes1@ida.his.se I | http://www.his.se/ida/~sp2stes1/ I _____/0\_____ I ____________O(.)O___________ H”gskolan i S”vde, Sverige I I-+-I O I-+-I I I Viggen with two Rb04 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:40:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: AW&ST February 27 Here is the belated summary of the Skunk Works-related articles from the last three Aviation Weeks. This is really only a summary - no quotes in the first two articles. Aviation Week & Space Technology, February 27, 1995, (Vol 142, No. 9) ===================================================================== INDUSTRY LOOKOUT (page 15): --------------------------- SPREAD IT THICKER: The B-2A wing leading-edge rain erosion problems will be fixed using low-tech solutions: coarser sandpaper (180-grit, instead of the mistakenly used 320-grit) and thicker paint coat (15-17-mil, instead of the 3-8-mil applied due to incorrect measurement). ARMY PRESSES FOR RAH-66 (page 24): ---------------------------------- The US Army tries to obtain release of $120 million in FY-95 funding. Their secondary goal is to promote a new, accelerated program for funding the fielding of 6 additional demonstrator aircraft. EDITORIALS (page 66): --------------------- TOUGH LOVE FOR X-33 SSTO EFFORT: The editors express their hope that the X-33 program will lead to two competing flyable prototypes. Feature: Quest for Precision (6 articles): ========================================== PGM STRATEGY FACES BUDGET, TECHNICAL TRAPS (pages 44-47): JDAM ERRORS TO BE SLASHED (pages 46-47): NAVY PRIMED FOR JSOW CRITICAL DESIGN REVIEW (page 48): TSSAM FOLLOW-ON TO TAKE SHAPE THIS YEAR (pages 49-51): SMALL SMART BOMB TO RAISE STEALTH AIRCRAFT'S PUNCH (pages 50-51): PRECISION WEAPONS GIVE FRANCE NEW FLEXIBILITY (pages 52-53): CASOM ATTRACTS WIDE RANGE OF PROPOSALS (page 54): These articles talk about the following PGMs (Precision-Guided Munitions), with a special look towards the new generation of stealthy weapons systems and aircraft like B-2A, F-117A, F-22A, JAST (X-32 follow-on). I also added general information from other sources, regarding these weapons. LGBs (Laser Guided Bombs), like GBU-24, GBU-27 etc. are not included. LGBs and terminal TV- or IIR-guided weapons are considered 'precision' weapons, while GPS, INS, and TerCom guided weapons are considered 'accurate' weapons. 1) JDAM - (Joint Direct Attack Munition) - low cost 'accurate' glide bomb; two versions are planned: - GBU-29 - 2,000 lb. (Mk. 84 or BLU-109, etc.) dumb-bomb with a finned tail kit and a guidance (seeker) nose kit; - GBU-30 - 1,000 lb. (Mk. 83 etc.) dumb-bomb with an equivalent kit; - contractor: competion between Martin Marietta and McDonnell Douglas; - status: now flight tested (on F-16); - range: 12 miles from +30,000 ft.; - guidance: differential GPS and INS; - up to 5,000 GBU-30 planned for internal carriage by F-22 and JAST; - up to 62,000 kits for USAF and 12,000 for USN/USMC planned; - cost: between $53,000 and $25,000 each (depending on number built); - between 100,000 and 150,000 would be bought if cheap enough; - intended to be first operational from 1997-2002 with (in this order): B-2, B-1, F/A-18, B-52, F-16, F-22, JAST, (and maybe F-15E); 2) JSOW - (Joint Stand-Off Weapon) - medium range stand-off glide bomb; three versions are planned: - AGM-154A - with BLU-97A/B combined effects submunition, (baseline version); - AGM-154 - with 6 BLU-108 Sensor Fused Weapons Arrays, (anti-armor version); - AGM-154 - with 1 BLU-111 500 lb. warhead and terminal seeker, (unitary warhead version) - (10 ft.CEP); (maybe later a more powerful, penetrating warhead); - contractor: Texas Instruments; - status: now flight tested (on F/A-18); - range: more than 40 miles; - guidance: differential GPS and INS; - up to 21,000 kits for USAF and USN/USMC planned; nearly 9,000 baseline versions, 5,000 anti-armor versions, and almost 8,000 unitary warhead versions; - cost: between $100,000 (baseline) and $400,000 (unitary warhead) each; total cost (for 21,000 AGM-154): $6 billion; - intended to be first operational from 2000-2002 with: F/A-18, AV-8B, F-16, (and maybe F-15E and B-1); 3) TSSAM - (Tri-Service Stand-off Attack Missile) - long-range stealthy missile; only test articles were built: - AGM-137A - all-round stealthy missile; - contractor: Northrop; - status: canceled (Feb. 1995); - range: 180 miles; - guidance: GPS and INS, plus terminal infrared; (?) - cost: about $2 million each; 4) ASOM - (Affordable Stand-Off Missile) - tentative name, sometimes also called 'Son-of-TSSAM'; - no designation yet -- possible contenders are: -- Northrop Grumman TSSAM; modified to be only stealthy from the front; cost: reduced to $750,000 each; -- Hughes 'AirHawk' ALCM (Air-Launched Cruise Missile); modified from ship-launched Block 3 BGM-109 Tomahawk; shortened by 30 in.; 1,000 lb [The rest of this post and the last post of this digest are missing!] ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #209a **********************************