From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #215 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 17 March 1995 Volume 05 : Number 215 In this issue: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #214 Missing digests Digest V5-208a Digest V5-209a See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dsm@iti-oh.com (dsm@iti-oh.com) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 20:25:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #214 According to skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu: >> >> Skunk Works Digest Friday, 17 March 1995 Volume 05 : Number 214 >> >> In this issue: >> >> Test of the digest >> >> See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works >> or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: Majordomo Admin Acct >> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 15:10:14 -0800 >> Subject: Test of the digest >> >> Let's see if I found the rake in my path. >> >> Kean I just stepped on it ! Dan ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:19:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Missing digests I will post the missing 5 digests (which I created from my archive) for all "digest-only" reader. All other, please ignore the next 5 articles! - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl Absolute Software 313 West Court St. #305 schnars@umcc.ais.org Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:20:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digest V5-208a Skunk Works Digest Friday, 17 March 1995 Volume 05 : Number 208a In this issue: Supersonic props Declassified Spy Images Re: Supersonic props Mach 1+ Prop. Ron Schweikert's SR-71 slides Offline for a time Ron's SR-71 pix Re: Ron's SR-71 pix X-33 More Flying Wing Re: X-33 Re: X-33 New "Blackbird" Patch Re: X-33 Ron's SR-71 slides screwed-up images (maybe) Re: X-33 Ron's address Article: Stealth Helicopter at Groom ABR and A-17 pix Groom Lake FTP archives at harbor? NOT! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Lednicer Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:32:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Supersonic props Propellers with localized regions of supersonic flow are pretty common. Even if the prop tip isn't moving at a supersonic velocity, there can be local regions of flow where the air on the blade has been accelerated to supersonic velocities. Sometimes the shock created behind this region will "delocalize" to the far field. This is some of the wop-wop sound you hear as a Huey tries to fly fast. The Huey's rotor has a tip speed of 814 ft/sec at 100% Nr. This is M=.73 at Sea Level Standard conditions. Coupled with another M=.15 of forward flight speed (100 kt), there is likely a shock on a good chunk of the outboard blade. If you ever go to the Reno Air Races, listen (its hard not to) as the AT-6s thrash around the course. That awful noise you here is supersonic flow on the outer part of the prop producing shock waves. Now, a separate issue comes up when you want the forward flight speed of a prop driven aircraft to be supersonic. The angle of attack experienced by a propeller blade is that angle above and beyond the vector sum of the rotational velocity and the forward flight velocity. If you are flying really fast, the vector sum plus angle of attack will produce an angle approaching 90 degrees. Hence, the lift produced by the prop blade will be largely in the rotational direction. Resolving this lift into the thrust and torque directions will result in little thrust and lots of torque. Even worse, the blade's drag goes way up from the high helical velocities, and this now resolves into the negative thrust direction. Coupled together, this causes the prop's efficiency to fall through the floor, right when you need a lot of thrust to get through the airframe's drag rise that develops as you approach M=1.0. To get an idea of the blade angles involved here, find a picture of "Rare Bear" on the course at Reno. The blades will look like they are almost feathered, because of the high blade angles required to get any thrust. I believe that the F-84H had a prop that was called a supersonic prop only because a large part of the prop radius was moving at supersonic helical speeds. As far as I know, the airframe never got close to going supersonic. I think that they also relied on residual jet thrust from the turboprop to get a good part of their thrust at the top end. BTW - I examined the "Mach Buster" at Oshkosh in 1988 - it is (was) a scam. Lots of wishful thinking went into creating that deathtrap. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 - ------------------------------ From: Rich Thomson Organization: Design Software Group, Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp. Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:03:37 -0700 Subject: Declassified Spy Images Unfortunately, none of them are of the Skunk Works, they all look like they are of various areas of Russia. However, I thought some of you skunkers would enjoy this. - -- Rich - ------- Forwarded Message Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:25:03 -0700 To: dsg_develop@pre.dsd.ES.COM From: Norman Angerhofer Reply: angerhof@dsd.ES.COM Subject: Spy photos Id: <199502282025.NAA23086@pre.dsd.ES.COM> - -------- According the the NY Times, Clinton has de-classified 800,000 spy photos from 1960-1972. Check it out in your spare time :-) http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/dclass/dclass.html - --Norman - ------- End of Forwarded Message - -- Between stimulus and response is the will to choose. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Rich Thomson Internet: rthomson@es.com Fractal Freak - ------------------------------ From: Steve Mansfield Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:04:19 GMT Subject: Re: Supersonic props In your message dated Tuesday 28, February 1995 you wrote : >If you ever go to the Reno Air Races, listen (its hard not to) as >the AT-6s thrash around the course. That awful noise you here is supersonic >flow on the outer part of the prop producing shock waves. I can vouch for that. The two times I've been to Reno I've had pylon passes, which means that the gaggles of AT-6s passed just feet (it seemed like inches) over my head. After a race, I found myself shaking my head to get rid of the faint ringing. Much worse than the Unlimiteds (P-51s, Bearcats et al). _____________________________________________________ Steve Mansfield steve@syntax.demon.co.uk Syntax Editorial, London rotsky@cix.compulink.co.uk Tel: 0181-801 7363 CIS: 100124,3240 Mobile: 0850 667272 Fax: 0181-801 4957 - ------------------------------ From: "RUSSELL.B" Date: 01 Mar 1995 07:56:07 GMT Subject: Mach 1+ Prop. Alright, I will ask the ignorant question (I am so very ignorant). What determines if a prop goes supersonic or not, other than the obvious diameter and rotation speed. I mean this question from the standpoint of design, ie. number of blades, angle of attack (varied with constant speed props), cord and taper of the blade and all those other things I was taught about while learning to fly (at very sub-mach numbers). And what is the status of turbo-fan testing? Several years ago I saw a Gulfstream that Locheed, NASA and GE had fitted with a turbofan for the starboard engine for test and evaluation. Just another software type question. Bob Russell Systems Programmer State of Georgia DOAS - ------------------------------ From: czbb062 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:36:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: 1 of Ron Schweikert's SR-71 slides If your mail system can handle that big a single e-mail, I can send you a 140KB .uue file which decodes to a 100KB .gif file. It is scanned for monitors set at 640x480 resolution. Michael Eisenstadt (czbb062@access.texas.gov) - ------------------------------ From: ron@habu.stortek.com (Ron Schweikert) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:42:09 MST Subject: Offline for a time Hi gang. As many of you know, I'm going off-line for a time (hopefully a very short time). If you try to send me personal mail and it bounces, that's why. I'll get back in touch as soon as I get a permanent connection. Thanks for all your feedback on the SR pictures. Perhaps we can agree on two or three to have digitized and blown up, thus saving us some money? I should be on-line until Friday afternoon at this address. Take care! Ron - ------------------------------ From: MiGEater1@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:27:51 -0500 Subject: Ron's SR-71 pix Re: Ron's SR-71 slides. They are fantastic. They consist of shots that I unlike any I've seen published. I would heartily recomend a set of these treasures for anyone with more than a passing interest on the SR. Plus... The quality is excellent for dupes. Thanks again Ron, Checksix to all and to all a good night. John - ------------------------------ From: czbb062 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 18:45:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Ron's SR-71 pix On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, MiGEater1@aol.com wrote: >They are fantastic. They consist of shots that are unlike any I've seen >published. I would heartily recomend a set of these treasures for anyone >with more than a passing interest on the SR. Plus... The quality is excellent >for dupes. Indeed they are. I have 3 scanned for subscribers who would like to put them on their screens (at 640x480 resolution). parked1.gif SR-71 parked in front of hanger 100KB (140KB in uue format) parked2.gif different angle 215KB (300KB in uue format) runup.gif awesome shot of runup including pool of leaking fuel under plane 170KB (234KB in uue format) If your mailer can handle files this large, I can send 1 or more to you by e-mail and you can uudecode them back into binary with any uudecoder program (available for download from cica mirror ftp sites). I shall scan more of Ron's slides when time permits. Michael Eisenstadt (czbb062@access.texas.gov) - ------------------------------ From: David Windle Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 14:59:07 Subject: X-33 Does anyone have any info on the aerospike engines that LADC will be using on their X-33 proposal ? I'd be very interested to hear any thoughts on the SSTO as a whole which will surely be a factor in the future success of Lockheed.I haven't started my homework on the subject and would appreciate your comments. So anyone want to talk X-33 ? Best wishes David - ------------------------------ From: Christian Jacobsen Date: 2 Mar 1995 09:33:28 U Subject: More Flying Wing Subject: Time:9:25 AM OFFICE MEMO More Flying Wing Date:3/2/95 This outtake from the latest Journal of Electronic Defense (JED) fits some of the Flying Wing stories we have been hearing: New High-Altitude, Long-Endurance UAV Prototype to Roll Out This Month This month, Skysat Communications Network Corp. (New York, NY) plans to roll out a prototype of its Sub Space Platform (SSP), a new high-altitude, long- endurance UAV. The platform is designed for the commercial market, but has potential military applications as well. The 121-ft flying-wing design will be constructed from composite materials and developed in two versions -- conventionally powered and microwave powered. Both versions are expected to carry an 850-lb payload at altitudes up to 70,000 ft, according to Anthony Asterita, vice president of program development at the company. In addition, the microwave-powered version is expected to fly at these altitudes for up to six months per mission. The key to such long-endurance flights, said Asterita, is a device which converts microwave energy, beamed up from the ground, into DC power. The conventionally powered vehicle is expected to fly up to several days per mission. For payloads, the company is looking at a number of possibilities, covering applications such as communications and surveillance. Surveillance payloads may include radar and electro-optic or infrared sensors. Commercial applications include datalinks and countrywide cellular communications in countries with limited communications infrastructures. According to Astertia, military interest has focused on the conventionally powered system, with a detailed briefing about the SSP having already been presented to DOD officials. For the time being, the military will receive updates on the progress of SSP test flights. Those test flights are scheduled to begin in April and extend until a production version of the conventionally powered vehicle is released in 1996. The microwave-powered SSP is scheduled to debut in 1997. (Reprinted without permision) - ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:20:20 -0800 Subject: Re: X-33 >Does anyone have any info on the aerospike engines that LADC >will be using on their X-33 proposal ? I'd be very interested to >hear any thoughts on the SSTO as a whole which will surely be >a factor in the future success of Lockheed.I haven't started my >homework on the subject and would appreciate your comments. >So anyone want to talk X-33 ? I'd love to talk X-33. The only think I can offer on linear aerospikes however, is a fascinating photograph of a real Rocketdyne linear rocket engine minus the aerospike nozzle. In a wonderful textbook on rocket engine design that Rocketdyne has fairly recently published through the AIAA, there is a black and white photo of this engine. The first photo of an actual linear rocket engine that I've ever seen. Has anyone ever seen another photo published of an actual linear engine before? It's VERY different looking of course, than your standard rocket engine. I imagine there are theoretical papers on aerospike nozzles available. Does anyone have any good references? Of course we have to realize here we are really talking about two things. The linear clustered rocket engine itself (pumps, feeds, injectors, chambers, etc) and the aerospike nozzle component. Larry - ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 02-Mar-1995 1441 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 14:47:31 EST Subject: Re: X-33 If you'd like to see an artist's conception of a linear aerospike as applied to a smaller version of the Aeroballistic Rocket, see the RLV Program home page: http://rlv.msfc.nasa.gov/rlv_htmls/RLV1.html George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler - ------------------------------ From: "JOE P." Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 14:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New "Blackbird" Patch I recently received a copy of the alumini edition of my old high school newspaper and what do I see but an article on the AFROTC unit inspection held recently at the school. This unit is appearently in its second year of operation and received very high marks in the inspection. What really caught my eye however was the picture of the patch this unit has adopted as it's unit patch. The picture was only in newspaper b&w so I can not tell you of the colors used but the picture centered on the patch is of a SR-71 or maybe its A series predecessor as if it were about to fly directly under you. The detail in the newspaper was not that clear but there were two rather noticable exhaust plumes coming from the engines. I presume that these were simply drawn in for art's sake since if an actual "secret penatration" aircraft were to have this heavy an exhaust trail, it sure wouldn't be a secret for long. Well with this little bit of info I guess I will turn the "Sealth" mode back on and go into lurking again. See my radar trac star to vani fr yo r sc.... ! Direct from the halls of Edinboro University - (814) 732-2484 and directly from the terminal of, - 142 Miller Bldg. - Edinboro Univ. Joe Pyrdek pyrdek@edinboro.edu - Edinboro PA 16444 - ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:02:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: X-33 We're going to fly an aerospike on the back of 844 next year. As soon as we finish these sonic boom flights, the plane's coming down for mods. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... - ------------------------------ From: czbb062 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:05:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Ron's SR-71 slides The 3 scans I did were testing 1-2-3, provisional, low resolution (640-480) but good enough to distribute. I've sent out about 20 sets and on arriving home this evening I've got about 18 more. List-owner Dean! Please set up some space on skunk-works' server for Ron's images (and others hopefully). There is a very interesting nighttime view from somewhat above the action: a habu being set up under bright incandescent lights. Ron didn't have tungsten slide film with him so the colors are way off. I plan to scan it as a black and white image. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whiners corner: it is very tedious to send sets out as I have to quit and flush sent-mail in my /Mail directory every other send. Ron's set surely has 5+ keeper images which will make it impossible for me to distribute them personally once I get them satisfactorily scanned. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, what is the consensus of the list vis-a-vis resolution size and format? I might mention that the nasa.dryden image archive scans theirs to 1280x1020 in 24-bit .jpg format. These are around 350KB to download, but to see them your machine has to decompress them to the images' original size: 3.74MB! (1280x1020x3) and you would have to have a monitor capable of 1280x1020 and a 2MB video accelerator card to see the whole picture even in 256 colors. Some of you have requested 24-bit jpg's; what resolution size would you prefer? For those of you who want to shuffle through your favorite aircraft images on your monitor, gif format might be preferable because they don't need decompressing. Some of you probably download high rez jpg's and resize and reformat them to your taste; some are not that into computer images and are not sure they want to be. RFC As of now, I am unilaterally copping out of e-mailing anymore sets (except to the 18 or so pending requests). And besides, today's my birthday (verdad!). Michael Eisenstadt (czbb062@access.texas.gov) - ------------------------------ From: czbb062 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:39:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: screwed-up images (maybe) Hey gang! Sorry for all the bandwidth I'm wasting. I think the images I have been sending out this evening may have gotten corrupted. I saw blank lines in 2 of the uue files as they were being sent out and that won't work if they are really missing. Will check it out tomorrow. Dean? Archive space, please, please, please! Michael Eisenstadt (czbb062@access.texas.gov) - ------------------------------ From: "Christian Jacobsen" Date: 3 Mar 1995 08:51:17 U Subject: Re: X-33 Subject: Time:8:43 AM OFFICE MEMO RE>>X-33 Date:3/3/95 I hope I am not the only one here.... I have no idea what an aerospike or a linear rocket engine is. Does someone want to post a description to bring everyone up to the same level of understanding? I (and I am sure some other lurkers) would appreciate it, - - Christian - ------------------------------ From: "John T. Ewing" Date: Fri, 3 Mar 95 13:31:49 MST Subject: Ron's address Does anyone have Ron's snail mail address? I need to send him some $ for the slides. Did he get a new email address yet? JTE - -- _____________________________________________________________________________ John T. Ewing | jewing@ishp2.az.honeywell.com Unix Systems Administrator | Honeywell Space and Aviation Systems | Commercial Flight Systems Group | Phoenix, Arizona - ------------------------------ From: PsychoSpy@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 12:49:04 -0500 Subject: Article: Stealth Helicopter at Groom Lake TITLE: EX-WORKER DESCRIBES STEALTH COPTER SUBTITLE: The Air Force has been testing the high-tech craft at Groom Lake, a former base employee contends. PUBLICATION: Las Vegas Review-Journal DATE: February 26, 1995 AUTHOR: Susan Greene A classified, black-budget stealth helicopter was being tested at the Groom Lake Air Force base as early as 1990, a former base employee said this week. The former worker, who asked not to be identified, closely monitored daily base operations and revealed the code name for the helicopter as "T.E.-K," standing for "Test and Evaluation Project K." That code name is consistent with those of at least two previous stealth projects tested at the classified Lincoln County air base - -- the F-117 stealth fighter, known as "T.E.-A," and the B-2 stealth bomber, known as "T.E.-B." The former worker described the helicopter as drab green, angular and riveted, with gull-wing doors that flip vertically and cup underneath the body when closed. The two-seater was loaded with telemetry gear in back and flew silently, without the loud beating of rotor blades typical of other helicopters, he noted. The former worker said two of the helicopters were stored near the southern end of the base complex in Hanger 8, the structure where the Air Force reportedly stored the B-2 while testing that aircraft during the late 1980s. He recalled that pilots took the helicopter for spins up to twice a day, sometimes testing them against Soviet radar systems in the Nellis Air Force Range, and sometimes simply hovering over the air base, occasionally switching directions. "I'm not sure exactly what they were testing, but it looked like they were trying it out pretty completely," he said. Some aspects of his description match details about secret high- speed stealth helicopters outlined in the Feb. 6 issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine. Aviation experts believe plans for such aircraft have been under way for at least 10 years. "This is a project that could be very close to completion," said John Pike, director of the Space Policy Project for the Washington-based Federation of American Scientists. Experts say light, quiet and stealthy helicopters could be used for clandestine "Rambo-type missions," quick-in, quick-out assignments without being noticed. "I'd say they could get a lot of use out of that type of aircraft," Pike said. Officials at the Pentagon and Nellis Air Force Base would not comment specifically on the existence of stealth helicopters or on other black-budget aircraft being tested within the Nellis Air Force Range. They have also refused to acknowledge the existence of the Groom Lake base itself, which has been observed by thousands of onlookers from nearby mountain ridges in Lincoln County. The Air Force has applied to withdraw those ridges as a buffer zone around the air base. That withdrawal is expected to be approved this spring. ### - ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 07-Mar-1995 1029 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 10:40:18 EST Subject: ABR and A-17 pix For those of you who, like me, enjoy speculative artists renderings, check out the March 1995 issue of Final Frontier. There's a nice rendering of the Lockheed Skunk Works' proposed Aeroballistic Rocket SSTO vehicle on the cover. You can see the linear aerospike engine in very simplistic form. One of the tail surfaces carries the Skunk Works (tm) logo. Is it me, or does the ABR have strong similarities to the many variants of the Lockheed Star Clipper proposal of the 1960s, especially in terms of general configuration and capabilities? Also, the February 1995 issue of Air Forces Monthly has a small three-view line drawing of the "A-17" by Pete West, accompanying a story on the Boscome Down incident. This A-17 rendering doesn't show the swing wings, but does highlight the A-17's YF-23 heritage. George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler - ------------------------------ From: Adrian Thurlow Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 15:32:20 +0000 Subject: Groom Lake Hi skunkers, Last weekend I visited my local secondhand book store and purchased a small book called 'Warbirds Illustrated No. 24 - US Spyplanes'. It runs to 72 pages and covers U2, SR71 and relatives, B57, and EC135 types. There are some good shots. It also contains a satellite photo of Groom Lake. It claims it to be a NASA/Landsat image and goes on to state that the most ultra secret work has now been moved to two other facilities. The book was published in 1985. Has anyone any comments regarding the other facilities? Regards Adrian Thurlow Technology Integration / Det.4 9th SRW \ B48 Room 5 / \ BT Labs / _ \ Martlesham Heath ____(( ))_________/_/_\_\_________(( ))____ Ipswich \ \_/ / Suffolk U.K. Now only distant thunder Tel. +44 1473 644880 Fax. +44 1473 646534 e-mail. adrian.thurlow@bt-sys.bt.co.uk The views expressed above are not necessarily those of BT. - ------------------------------ From: "Baughman, Steve" Date: 8 Mar 1995 13:24:07 -0700 Subject: FTP archives at harbor? NOT! Hello, Upon subscribing to this mailing list, I received a reply which stated: >An archive of past messages, plus some interesting GIF images and other info, >is kept on harbor.ecn.purdue.edu for anonymous ftp. Connect to Harbor, >give "anonymous" as the login, and your e-mail address as the password. >Then cd to /pub/skunk-works and look around. Unfortunately, it appears that the archives have moved or been deleted. sbaughmn@apple.com - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #208a ********************************** ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:21:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digest V5-209a Skunk Works Digest Friday, 17 March 1995 Volume 05 : Number 209a In this issue: German Stealth Re: German Stealth Nellis Web Page Re: German Stealth Better A-17 artwork [none] Re: German Stealth (fwd) Re: Better A-17 artwork Re: Article: Stealth Helicopter at Groom Lake This list has been cloned Changing Re: This list has been cloned Nellis Web Page Re: This list has been cloned F4 phantoms aerodynamics AW&ST February 27 AW&ST March 3 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk (John Burtenshaw) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:38:03 +0000 Subject: German Stealth Hi Just read in Flight International of a classified program during the 1980's= =20 to develop a stealth fighter for the Luftwaffe. The prime contractor was=20 Daimler-Benz Aerospace and the project was called Firefly. It never got=20 further than manned wind-tunnel tests. The artist impression of it with the article makes it appear to be in the same class as the F-117 but with a=20 single fin. Looked an interesting concept, I wonder if anyone out there in Skunkers land knows anymore. Cheers John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D John Burtenshaw BOURNEMOUTH= =20 System Administrator, The Computer Centre UNIVERSITY= =20 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - - -Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 Packet Radio: G1HOK @ GB7BNM.#45.GBR.EU AMPRnet: G1HOK.ampr.org. [44.131.17.82] Compuserve: 10033,3113 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D - ------------------------------ From: Geoff.Miller@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:10:07 +0800 Subject: Re: German Stealth John Burtenshaw writes: >It never got further than manned wind-tunnel tests. *Manned* wind tunnel tests? I've never heard of such a thing. How common is that? - --Geoff - ------------------------------ From: hsapiens@clark.net Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 14:56:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nellis Web Page I haven't seen this posted to this list yet so I thought I'd mention that= =20 Nellis Air Force Base now operates a WWW server. The URL is . There's not a whole lot there that you haven't probably already viewed elsewhere but it is refreshinging to see the Air=20 Force trying harder to be friendly to interested taxpayers. Some of the hotlinks are new to me as well. Give it a look but be advised that there is a statement indicating that all traffic is closely monitored. BTW, if this info. has been posted here before, I apologize but=20 Clark.net's T1 has been down recently and I may not have seen it... - -- | $ |=20 |---. ,---. ,---. ,---. . ,---. ,---. ,---. | "The secret is to bang | | `---. ,---| | | | |---' | | `---. | the rocks together, guys." ` ' `---' `---^ |---' ` `---' ` ' `---' | -- Douglas Adams | hsapiens@clark.net | - ------------------------------ From: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk (John Burtenshaw) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:17:11 +0000 Subject: Re: German Stealth >*Manned* wind tunnel tests? I've never heard of such a thing. >How common is that? I know! It took me by surprise as well but there it is in black and white. *Flight International* magazine doesn't usually make that many errors so I= =20 take it as being correct. I've never heard of it either. John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D John Burtenshaw BOURNEMOUTH= =20 System Administrator, The Computer Centre UNIVERSITY= =20 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - - -Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 Packet Radio: G1HOK @ GB7BNM.#45.GBR.EU AMPRnet: G1HOK.ampr.org. [44.131.17.82] Compuserve: 10033,3113 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D - ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 13-Mar-1995 0710 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 07:15:17 EST Subject: Better A-17 artwork I posted a note on 10 March regarding the A-17 line drawing in the February= 1995 issue of Air Forces Monthly. AFM's sister publication, Air International, h= as a larger artists' conception of an A-17, but it's in a half-page advertisemen= t for AFM (making a connection between the A-17 and the late 1994 Boscome Down=20 crash). It's a very well-done bit of art, however, with nice detail. George George Allegrezza | =20 Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | =20 allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler =20 - ------------------------------ From: David Lednicer Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:11:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: For the last 2 or 3 days, I have been getting the digest, but when I go to look at it, it is empty! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 - ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:21:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: German Stealth (fwd) Once upon a time John Burtenshaw shaped the electrons to say... >>*Manned* wind tunnel tests? I've never heard of such a thing. >>How common is that? >I know! It took me by surprise as well but there it is in black and white. >*Flight International* magazine doesn't usually make that many errors so I= =20 I've seen photos and film clips of manned wind-tunnel tests - so yes, they are done. - -- megazone@world.std.com megazone@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164 = =20 "I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!= " Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works;=20 rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the letter body. Geek Code 2.1: GTW/H d-- H+>++ s++:++ !g p? au+ a24 w++@ v++@ C++(++++)$=20 UU+$>UL++++ P+ L>++ 3 E N+++ K+++ W-- M- V-- -po+ Y+>++ t+@ 5@ j@ R@ G'=20 tv@ b++(+++) D+@ B--- e++ u** h- f+ r@ n+(----) y++@(*) - ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 13-Mar-1995 1502 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 15:15:58 EST Subject: Re: Better A-17 artwork Sorry about that folks . . . The Air International with the A-17 artwork (in an ad for Air Forces Monthl= y) is the February 1995 issue. That issue, and the February '95 AFM is just hitting the newsstands in my part of the world. If all you want is the artw= ork, buy Air International, because it's significantly bigger that the same item= in AFM. Go figure. AFM does have a three-view line drawing, though. Also, for some WWW fun, check out the USAF Wright Laboratory Aeropropulsion= =20 Directorate home page: http://podev.appl.wpafb.af.mil:8001/home.html The history page is worth a visit, with pictures of a LACE test rig, hydrogen expander (Suntan?) engine, Aerospaceplane, ASALM, X-7, Bomarc, and ATEGG, not to mention all kinds of jet and piston engines: http://podev.appl.wpafb.af.mil:8001/history.html George George Allegrezza | =20 Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | =20 allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler =20 =20 - ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 21:33:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Article: Stealth Helicopter at Groom Lake Er, the B-2 was never tested at Groom Lake. It flew from Palmdale (AF Plant 42) to Edwards AFB on the _televised_ first flight and all testing was done out of EDW. I watched the first takeoff on TV while listening "live" and watched the landing from the Dryden roof.=20 The rollout was pretty heavily covered in the media too, at least here in SoCal.=20 Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... - ------------------------------ From: joeh@towel.wpd.sgi.com (Joe Heinrich) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:24:03 -0800 Subject: This list has been cloned Well, Time-Warner's attempt. Beside your OJ updates. http://www.pathfinder.com/twep/Features/Skunk_Works/bbs/ - --=20 Joe "Joe" Heinrich Tales of Silicon Valley {Internal access only, unless you can bust the firewall} Heinrich! Don't you have something *better* to do? Flatland: joeh@sgi.com Rotary dial: 415.390.4347 DTMF:SameAsAbove BLM Locator:Building8Lower SnailMail:MS/535, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mt. View, CA 94043 =09=09 :) Kill all smileys :> - ------------------------------ From: "Steven Schultz" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:26:14 -40975532 (CST) Subject: Changing I need to change my E-mail address on the Skunks List. How do I do that? - --=20 Steven.Schultz@mixcom.com - Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin, U.S.A. It's always "justified," when it's by the "winning" side... - ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:50:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: This list has been cloned On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Joe Heinrich wrote: =20 >Well, Time-Warner's attempt. Beside your OJ updates. >http://www.pathfinder.com/twep/Features/Skunk_Works/bbs/ Joe, Due to the way the list had been going lately - posts few and far between= =20 - - I believe the constant UFO related stuff had driven most of the serious= =20 posters off the list. The above baudleriztion on TW will surely be the=20 death blow. 'Tis sad. regards, BaDge - ------------------------------ From: hsapiens@clark.net Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:46:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nellis Web Page I haven't seen this posted to this list yet so I thought I'd mention that Nellis Air Force Base now operates a WWW server. The URL is . There's not a whole lot there that you haven't probably already viewed elsewhere but it is refreshinging to see the Air Force trying harder to be friendly to interested taxpayers. Some of the hotlinks are new to me as well. Give it a look but be advised that there is a statement indicating that all traffic is closely monitored. I guess I have a dossier now... - -- | $ |=20 |---. ,---. ,---. ,---. . ,---. ,---. ,---. | "The secret is to bang | | `---. ,---| | | | |---' | | `---. | the rocks together, guys." ` ' `---' `---^ |---' ` `---' ` ' `---' | -- Douglas Adams | hsapiens@clark.net | - ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 11:16:39 MET Subject: Re: This list has been cloned In answer to BaDge (Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:50:08 -0500 (EST)): BaDge puts forward an interesting hypothesis about the recent low rate of postings, however I am not sure that he is right. I have monitored this list for nearly two years, and noticed frequent blanks without any apparent reason. Maybe the moderator could tell us if there has been recently a sharp decrease in the number of subscribers (or of serious subscribers). I suggest other hypotheses. First, a big number of postings were about Aurora. Since the probability of the existence of this craft is decreasing, less people dare initiate a thread about it. The other craft threads are often historical, and people in this group are oriented more towards the future than towards the past. Finally, the Groom Lake thread (which was an important one) has been nearly exhausted, owing to Glenn Campbell and the articles in Popular Science and elsewhere (By the way: in the last issue of the French popularization review for teenagers "Science et Vie Junior" there is a rather big article about Groom Lake, with Glenn Campbell himself on a photograph - first time I see him!). J. Pharabod - ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:22:10 +0100 Subject: F4 phantoms aerodynamics In the recent jet engine thread somebody said that thicker aero-foils have lower critical mach number (if i'm remembering wrong.) Then the Air Force got F4 with thicker wheels they also=20 got consecutively a wing with a pronounced bump. How will something like that affect an a/c aerodynamics ?? - --=20 - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund I | sp2stes1@ida.his.se I | http://www.his.se/ida/~sp2stes1/ I _____/0\_____ I ____________O(.)O___________ H=F6gskolan i Sk=F6vde, Sverige I I-+-I O I-+-I I I Viggen with two Rb04 - --------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:40:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: AW&ST February 27 Here is the belated summary of the Skunk Works-related articles from the last three Aviation Weeks. This is really only a summary - no quotes in the= =20 first two articles. Aviation Week & Space Technology, February 27, 1995, (Vol 142, No. 9) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D INDUSTRY LOOKOUT (page 15): - --------------------------- SPREAD IT THICKER: The B-2A wing leading-edge rain erosion problems will be fixed using low-tech solutions: coarser sandpaper (180-grit, instead of the mistakenly used 320-grit) and thicker paint coat (15-17-mil, instead of the 3-8-mil applied due to incorrect measurement). ARMY PRESSES FOR RAH-66 (page 24): - ---------------------------------- The US Army tries to obtain release of $120 million in FY-95 funding. Their secondary goal is to promote a new, accelerated program for funding the fielding of 6 additional demonstrator aircraft. EDITORIALS (page 66): - --------------------- TOUGH LOVE FOR X-33 SSTO EFFORT: The editors express their hope that the X-= 33 program will lead to two competing flyable prototypes. Feature: Quest for Precision (6 articles): =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D PGM STRATEGY FACES BUDGET, TECHNICAL TRAPS (pages 44-47): JDAM ERRORS TO BE SLASHED (pages 46-47): NAVY PRIMED FOR JSOW CRITICAL DESIGN REVIEW (page 48): TSSAM FOLLOW-ON TO TAKE SHAPE THIS YEAR (pages 49-51): SMALL SMART BOMB TO RAISE STEALTH AIRCRAFT'S PUNCH (pages 50-51): PRECISION WEAPONS GIVE FRANCE NEW FLEXIBILITY (pages 52-53): CASOM ATTRACTS WIDE RANGE OF PROPOSALS (page 54): These articles talk about the following PGMs (Precision-Guided Munitions), with a special look towards the new generation of stealthy weapons systems and aircraft like B-2A, F-117A, F-22A, JAST (X-32 follow-on). I also added general information from other sources, regarding these weapon= s. LGBs (Laser Guided Bombs), like GBU-24, GBU-27 etc. are not included. LGBs = and terminal TV- or IIR-guided weapons are considered 'precision' weapons, whil= e GPS, INS, and TerCom guided weapons are considered 'accurate' weapons. 1) JDAM - (Joint Direct Attack Munition) - low cost 'accurate' glide bomb; two versions are planned: - GBU-29 - 2,000 lb. (Mk. 84 or BLU-109, etc.) dumb-bomb with a finned tail kit and a guidance (seeker) nose kit; - GBU-30 - 1,000 lb. (Mk. 83 etc.) dumb-bomb with an equivalent kit; - contractor: competion between Martin Marietta and McDonnell Douglas; - status: now flight tested (on F-16); - range: 12 miles from +30,000 ft.; - guidance: differential GPS and INS; - up to 5,000 GBU-30 planned for internal carriage by F-22 and JAST; - up to 62,000 kits for USAF and 12,000 for USN/USMC planned; - cost: between $53,000 and $25,000 each (depending on number built); - between 100,000 and 150,000 would be bought if cheap enough; - intended to be first operational from 1997-2002 with (in this order): B-2, B-1, F/A-18, B-52, F-16, F-22, JAST, (and maybe F-15E); 2) JSOW - (Joint Stand-Off Weapon) - medium range stand-off glide bomb; three versions are planned: - AGM-154A - with BLU-97A/B combined effects submunition, (baseline version); - AGM-154 - with 6 BLU-108 Sensor Fused Weapons Arrays, (anti-armor version); - AGM-154 - with 1 BLU-111 500 lb. warhead and terminal seeker, (unitary warhead version) - (10 ft.CEP); (maybe later a more powerful, penetrating warhead); - contractor: Texas Instruments; - status: now flight tested (on F/A-18); - range: more than 40 miles; - guidance: differential GPS and INS; - up to 21,000 kits for USAF and USN/USMC planned; nearly 9,000 baseline versions, 5,000 anti-armor versions, and almost 8,000 unitary warhead versions; - cost: between $100,000 (baseline) and $400,000 (unitary warhead) each; total cost (for 21,000 AGM-154): $6 billion; - intended to be first operational from 2000-2002 with: F/A-18, AV-8B, F-16, (and maybe F-15E and B-1); 3) TSSAM - (Tri-Service Stand-off Attack Missile) - long-range stealthy missile; only test articles were built: - AGM-137A - all-round stealthy missile; - contractor: Northrop; - status: canceled (Feb. 1995); - range: 180 miles; - guidance: GPS and INS, plus terminal infrared; (?) - cost: about $2 million each; 4) ASOM - (Affordable Stand-Off Missile) - tentative name, sometimes also called 'Son-of-TSSAM'; - no designation yet -- possible contenders are: -- Northrop Grumman TSSAM; modified to be only stealthy from the front; cost: reduced to $750,000 each; -- Hughes 'AirHawk' ALCM (Air-Launched Cruise Missile); modified from ship-launched Block 3 BGM-109 Tomahawk; shortened by 30 in.; 1,000 lb= ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #215 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).