From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #238 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 11 April 1995 Volume 05 : Number 238 In this issue: Aerofax A-17 . . . not? Re: First 117 designations Re: Electrogravitics ... Re: Aerofax Re: SR-71 Manuals Re: Aerofax Re: First 117 designations Re: SR-71 Manuals Jay Miller administrivia [bogus addresses] See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Allegrezza 10-Apr-1995 0844 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 08:49:22 EDT Subject: Aerofax Jay Miller is intimately involved with the new Air and Space cable channel, according to a note he posted to the Smithsonian list a few days ago. This may have something to do (my speculation only) with the new lower profile of Aerofax. The TV business eats up a lot of free time. (Not like I'm going to see the A&S channel anytime before 2007, given the imbeciles who run my cable system. We do have three home shopping channels though.) George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 10-Apr-1995 0850 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 10:15:33 EDT Subject: A-17 . . . not? Recent statements by Gen. Fogelman, the USAF chief of staff, argue against the *current* existence of an A-17. Fogelman recently endorsed the idea of developing F-22 variants for deep strike, EW, and SEAD mission. The first two requirements would be covered by the A-17 if there was such an animal. That would probably make F-22 modifications not necessary. My speculation is that the A-17 story is premature, and the visual representation of the A-17 in Popular Science and Air Forces Monthly is more contractor proposal artwork than spy-photo rework. The A-17 depiction in Pop Sci in particular looks like A/F-X proposals from the early '90s. The AF probably wants A-17/A/F-X capability, though, and will seek to modify the F-22 to get it. "Modify" may be too simplistic as used here. They probably want to end up with something like a Naval ATF/A/F-X/. This shift to F-22-based aircraft for the heavier missions is also reinforced by the recent revisions to the JAST program requirements. At one time, the USAF wanted to use JAST to develop not only an F-16 replacement, but a strike aircraft to replace the F-15E, F-117, and F-111. Again, these deep strike aircraft would be superseded by the A-17 if it existed. Recently, the JAST requirement has been downscoped to an F-16 replacement only (for the USAF). This suggests that the Air Force is looking to the F-22 for it's follow-on strike aircraft. George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "There is nothing more dangerous than Mobile Systems Business | a race fan with grading equipment." Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Humpy Wheeler ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 07:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: First 117 designations > I have come across a reference that lists the first 5 F-117A's as used > for flight testing, and designated as Scorpion 1 thru 5. I am curious > if this is the case Yes, that is correct. The first five F-117s were FSD aircraft, serial #s 780 to 784, and were used by the flight test team. "Scorpion" is a nickname the flight test people came up with. ------------------------------ From: Frank Markus Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 12:08:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Electrogravitics ... I think that the proponents of "antigravity" are overreaching and damaging their case as a result. Their claims that it is possible to affect plasma (or a combination of plasma and supersonic shock waves) by electrical means seem reasonable. If, as reported, those means result in changes to the charactaristics of the shock waves, I assume that the there would be aerodynamic effects similar to changes in the boundary layer in subsonic aerodynamics. What those effects would be should be -- and likely have been -- the subject of investigation. As for the comment that a B-2 would not require its engines if it has "antigravity" electical devices, I suspect that the effects of the electrical devices would only become significant when there is a sufficent shock wave or plasma for them to work on. - -- - - Frank - ========================================== "What if they take genetic material from wet noodles and blowfish and splice it into politician chromosomes and create a Clinton administration?" -- P.J. O'Rourke ========================================== ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 18:58:38 +0200 Subject: Re: Aerofax >>>>> "George" == George Allegrezza 10-Apr-1995 0844 writes: George> Jay Miller is intimately involved with the new Air and Space cable channel, George> according to a note he posted to the Smithsonian list a few days ago. This may George> have something to do (my speculation only) with the new lower profile of George> Aerofax. The TV business eats up a lot of free time. When will we see that ?? 2010 ?? George> (Not like I'm going to see the A&S channel anytime before 2007, given the George> imbeciles who run my cable system. We do have three home shopping channels George> though.) Here in sweden we have to pay extra for discovery... TV4 (commercial earth-based) shows beyond 2000. I don't like beyond 2000. for example : why do they play all that music continuosly ??? It is very irritating if you like me want to listen to the voices and not read the translation which sometimes is plain wrong. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund I | sp2stes1@ida.his.se I | I _____/0\_____ I ____________O(.)O___________ Högskolan i Skövde, Sverige I I-+-I O I-+-I I I Viggen with two Rb04 - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:31:43 -0700 Subject: Re: SR-71 Manuals Mary writes: >You know, this is a real rip-off. Some guy, affiliated with one of the >museums that got and SR, wrote to Dave Lux, the SR-71 project manager, and >begged a copy of the Dash-1. He then turned around and had it xeroxed and >sold it. There's no way on God's green earth that mass copying could have >cost anything like a hundred dollars, ... > ... >... . Anyway, this whole incident is why no one else will ever get >publications from us, as we were really embarassed by it. The Air Force >got really huffy, too. It just smacked too much of taking advantage for >personal gain. Thanks Mary for telling the story. Finally it comes out! I had heard it, right after it happened, but since I wasn't involved, I decided to keep my mouth shut. It's unfortunate that the 'guy' is one of the 'deans' of black aircraft watching. Sorry you guys got burned by this. Back to quality. The photocopy is 'poor'. In one instance, the should-be wonderful cross section drawing of the J-58 comes out very poorly. When the document first came out, it was billed as "complete" by Zenith, but there were approximately 80 pages missing, if you counted page by page and used the table of contents! Most of the pages are missing from the avionics and defensive systems chapters. The book is educational. If you're interested in technical aspects of the SR, I find it very useful. Now that the document is out there, I don't understand how the 'guy' could copyright the document. Since the manual itself (not the glossy front and end wrappers) is a product of the U.S. government, how could anyone copyright it? > .... The Researchers' >Handbooks are much better but the weasel didn't manage to get them and >they're not in the public domain (Lockheed wrote them). Besides, they're >in color so copying wouldn't have been so cheap. Well actually, If I recall correctly, the 'guy' did use photos that were also published in the Researcher's Handbooks series, in his first SR-71 book. I don't know if he got them from the Researcher's Handbooks or as seperate photos from Lockheed. Larry ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Aerofax I spoke with Jay Miller a while ago, and he told me he is working (among other things) on a third extended edition of his X-Planes books, which should come out in a few months. Since an earlier edition of this book was made into a tv/video series by/for the Discovery channel, Jay Miller has found a permanent place in the credits of any Wings or SeaWings show, together with the CAF and others. When Kathryn and I were at Groomstock (the Freedom Ridge camp-out last August), we spoke with Byron Harris, who works as a reporter for WFAA-TV and as a free-lance writer for the Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine (see A&S Jan. 1995, pp 14/16 - Soundings - Groomstock). He told us he is working with Jay Miller, a good friend of his, on a tv-series and other projects. Jay Miller has an AOL-account, and it would be nice if he were on the Skunk Works list, but I think, that he -- as a professional writer -- prefers to sell his information (in the form of his excellent books), instead of giving it away for free on the net. *sigh* :) - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 or gehrs-pahl@buick.flint.umich.edu Tel: (810) 238-8469 or gpahl@cyberspace.org - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: First 117 designations Ivan Baird asked if and why the first 5 F-117 were known as Scorpions. The first five F-117 (maybe redesignated YF-117A -- tail numbers '780' - '784' -- possibly allocated USAF YF-Serials: '79-10780' - '79-10784'), which were tested in the early 1980s at Groom Lake, were named 'Scorpion 1' through 'Scorpion 5'. These are nick-names or nose-art-names like 'Enola Gay' or 'Glamorous Glennis' and not designations or project names. The early F-117 camouflage scheme, blue/green and brown over light-gray, was soon replaced by a light-gray over all paint scheme (the intended F-117 colour scheme), before the USAF decided to paint all F-117 black. The 5 FSD (Full-Scale Development) aircraft had a number (1 through 5) and a scorpion painted on the side of the gray fuselage, behind the cockpit and above the air-intake. They also had a similar painting on the inside of one of the bomb-bay doors, where later all the 'Desert Storm' nose-arts were located. The story goes, that the aircraft was named 'Scorpion' or 'Cockroach' by the ground crews, because of their strange appearance, and when a scorpion was found in one of the offices, the first name became semi-official. The F-117 flight test crews referred to themselves as the 'Baja Scorpions', where Baja is spanish for southern or lower (meaning the South side of Groom Lake, where the Lockheed F-117 test team was located). The scorpion could also be found on the flight test patches of the F-117 FTE (Flight Test & Evaluation) group. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 or gehrs-pahl@buick.flint.umich.edu Tel: (810) 238-8469 or gpahl@cyberspace.org - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 16:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SR-71 Manuals Works published by the US Government are in the public domain and cannot be copyrighted. In the case of this manual, the publisher could copyright the cover and any foreword, but the actual government-supplied text cannot be copyrighted. This means that anyone who bought one of these could copy everything but the cover and added text and sell it themselves. Hey, those who live by the sword die by the sword. The reason it was incomplete, incidentally, is that our versions are incomplete--we didn't copy the stuff that's still classified (it's all about the recce gear). No one wants to lock their copy in a safe all the time, after all. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: Adrian Thurlow Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 20:52:32 +0100 Subject: Jay Miller Hi skunkers, Kathryn & Andreas write: >Jay Miller has an AOL-account, and it would be nice if he were on the Skunk Works list, but I think, that he -- as a professional writer -- prefers to sell his information (in the form of his excellent books), instead of giving it away for free on the net.< I think that everybody will agree with me when I say that Jay Miller is a fine writer. As such I find it hard to believe that he does not get to see the results from this listserv especially as his favourite topics are so close to all our hearts. Perhaps some of you are concerned that Aerofax has a dodgy future. My experience of Midland Counties Publications would indicate that it is good hands. Regards Adrian Thurlow Technology Integration BT Labs Martlesham Heath Ipswich Suffolk U.K. IP5 7RE Tel. +44 1473 644880 Fax. +44 1473 646534 e-mail: adrian.thurlow@bt-sys.bt.co.uk The views expressed above may not be those of BT. ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:58:16 PDT Subject: administrivia [bogus addresses] I cleaned a whole slew of bad addresses from the mailing list. Sorry for the goo in your mailboxes from all the bounces. [ObSkunk] How long does the material on the engine last where the inlet shock touches down? Is there significant erosion over time? kean Kean Stump Information Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. 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