From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #296 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 10 June 1995 Volume 05 : Number 296 In this issue: FELLOWSHIP AND GRANT OPPORTUNITIES MOD D-Notices Sukhoi XB-70 clone? Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? Re[2]: From Cornet's web publication Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? FELLOWSHIP AND GRANT OPPORTUNITIES zoomall.jpg Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? Re[2]: From Cornet's web publication Re[3]: From Cornet's web publication Re: zoomall.jpg Re: zoomall.jpg See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pricharc@agcs.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 14:58:53 -0700 Subject: FELLOWSHIP AND GRANT OPPORTUNITIES > FELLOWSHIP AND GRANT OPPORTUNITIES > > The Air Force Historical Research Agency announces research grants up >to $2,500 to encourage scholars to study the history of air power at its >collections at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama. Applications can be obtained >from the Commander, Air Force Historical Research Agency, 600 Chennault >Circle, Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6424. The deadline is 1 October 1995. > FYI, An opportunity for a skunk-works researcher. I pulled this from a NASA server; From: Aeronautics & Aerospace History Subject: NASA History: News and Notes, Spring 1995 Regards, - - Clyde Prichard - pricharc@agcs.com ------------------------------ From: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk (Andy Cobley) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 95 14:13:57 BST Subject: MOD D-Notices This is not strictly Scunk works so forgive me. Does anyone know how to get information about MOD (UK) D-notices that may have been placed on sensitive information. I don't actually want access to the info just to know if a D-notice exists or has ever existed ? Andy C Andy Cobley acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk This was sent by Eudora. The address just above is correct even if the return address wasn't ------------------------------ From: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk (John Burtenshaw) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:12:09 +0100 Subject: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? Hi I've just quickly looked at the Midland Publishing catalog for this year and I notice that there is a book entitled OKB Sukhoi authored by many Russians and Jay Miller. The cover photo is of a plane that looks very much like the XB-70 (canard delta-wing design , engines under its belly with a very long fuselage *nose* ahead of the nosewheels etc.) The differnce being is that it is single finned. I don't recall seeing it before in any aircraft identification book, so can anyone shed any light on this aircraft. By the way from the angle of the photo was taken it looks a BIG aircraft. Cheers John =========================================================================== John Burtenshaw Systems Administrator, The Computer Centre, Bournemouth University - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB U.K. Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 AX.25: g1hok@gb7bnm.#45.gbr.eu. AMPRnet: g1hok.ampr.org. (44.131.17.82) CompuServe: 100336,3113 =========================================================================== ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:39:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? John Burtenshaw writes: > >I've just quickly looked at the Midland Publishing catalog for this year and >I notice that there is a book entitled OKB Sukhoi authored by many Russians >and Jay Miller. The cover photo is of a plane that looks very much like the >XB-70 (canard delta-wing design , engines under its belly with a very long >fuselage *nose* ahead of the nosewheels etc.) The differnce being is that it >is single finned. I don't recall seeing it before in any aircraft >identification book, so can anyone shed any light on this aircraft. By the >way from the angle of the photo was taken it looks a BIG aircraft. Yes, the Sukhoi T-100 Mach 2-3 bomber! Beautiful airplane! Three airframes were actually built. One for static test and two for flight test. They flew 12 times before being grounded by U.S./Soviet SALT treaty provisions. A very nice color photo of a T-100 taxiing for flight test, taken from the side, is in AW&ST 6/7/93 pg 41. The photo shows the articulated nose in the up position. There have also been photos published of a surviving T-100 resting at the old Soviet bomber boneyard. These photos show the nose in the down position. Thanks for the Su book tip! Do you have a phone order no. for Midland? Larry ------------------------------ From: jackg@holobyte.com (Jack Gibbons) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:19:09 -0700 Subject: Re[2]: From Cornet's web publication How many times does it need to be said? Messages about UFOs have absolutely nothing to do with the Skunk Works! This list is concerned with conventional aircraft built with current or realistically feasible technology. If you think that Lockheed is building flying saucers, please post your messages concerning this on alt.conspiracy or similar newsgroup or mailing list. I won't waste bandwidth quoting the whole message. Lumber >:-[ - "I've done it over and over.. You see, I kill breeders." - "God is dead." -Nietzche Here thar be monsters! - "Nietzche is dead." -God "Hey ho! Let's go!" ******************************************************************** * E-mail: lumber@zoom.com | lumber@dnai.com | jackg@holobyte.com * ******************************************************************** ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: From Cornet's web publication Author: "Terry Colvin" at Internet Date: 06/08/95 15:05 Forwarded by: Terry W. Colvin Voice: [520]538-5392 ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re: From Cornet's web publication Author: "steven.johnson@mail.admin.wisc.edu" <"Steven V.Johnson"@mail.admin.wisc.edu> at smtp Date: 8/6/1995 3:43 PM In <199506070112.VAA17642@hTSO01.Cin.IX.net>, "Garrison L. Hilliard" writes: >FORWARDED FROM: /mail/52/usr5259a(#2458) From:carr#m#_paul@msgw.vf.mmc.com(Carr, Paul) >I found the folowing very telling: > > >"I can say unequivocally that these are not conventional >military aircraft, but I cannot rule out the possibility >that I am photographing hybrid technology. My question is >why would the military put on displays for my camera, >unless I am in some way linked to a secret government >program to gradually inform and educate the public? I >prefer to think that the aliens are using hybrid >technology or conventional facsimile as a means of >camouflage, and that they want to educate the public >through a controlled outlet of information. Conventional >sounds, craft with unfoldable wings, and running lights >are used to compromise interpretation in order to lessen >or eliminate conflict and shock, and to provide escape >from an unacceptable conclusion, i.e. plausible denial. I >have met numerous witnesses who cannot accept these craft >as alien, and who will quickly use facsimile sounds and >light patterns to conclude that it was just conventional >aircraft that flew over them. You can tell when a person >is having a problem when he looks at the details. But the >truth is in the details, as my photographic analysis >below will indicate. " > ------------------------------ From: Geoff.Miller@Eng.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:11:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? Larry writes: > There have also been photos published of a surviving T-100 > resting at the old Soviet bomber boneyard. These photos show > the nose in the down position. Are you thinking of the big outdoor museum at Monino? In the episode of Wings Of the Red Star that covered the Tu-28 Fiddler, among others, there was some footage of the museum's Tu-28 that showed the T-100 parked in the background. It bears a certain resemblance to the Tu-144, especially the vertical stabilizer. - --Geoff ------------------------------ From: pricharc@agcs.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:06:02 -0700 Subject: FELLOWSHIP AND GRANT OPPORTUNITIES - - > FELLOWSHIP AND GRANT OPPORTUNITIES > > The Air Force Historical Research Agency announces research grants up >to $2,500 to encourage scholars to study the history of air power at its >collections at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama. Applications can be obtained >from the Commander, Air Force Historical Research Agency, 600 Chennault >Circle, Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6424. The deadline is 1 October 1995. > FYI, An opportunity for a skunk-works researcher. I pulled this from a NASA server; From: Aeronautics & Aerospace History Subject: NASA History: News and Notes, Spring 1995 Regards, - - Clyde Prichard - pricharc@agcs.com ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 16:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: zoomall.jpg As John Burtenshaw suggested, I have put the Holloman AFB anomaly picture on my home page. It is at the very end of the page, under: 10. Links to: Various Aerospace Information and Pictures You can also get it direct at the URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/pictures/zoomall.jpg I'll keep it there for a while. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 13:44:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? >Are you thinking of the big outdoor museum at Monino? Yes, that is the one. >It bears a certain resemblance to the Tu-144, especially the >vertical stabilizer. Yes it does. Larry ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 18:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Sukhoi XB-70 clone? Some data about the Sukhoi T-4 (Su-100) bomber: The OKB Sukhoi developed the T-4 in the early 1960s probably as a response to the SR-71 family (while the XB-70 was a pure research plane by 1961). It was supposed to cruise at about Mach 2, having a Mach 3 dash capability. It resembled the XB-70 in size and general layout, but had only 4 engines, a single fin, and did not use its own supersonic shock wave to ride on. Its length is about 170 feet (same as XB-70) and its wing planform is similar to that of the Tu-144 wing. It has small trapezoid canards, like the XB-70, and a gross takeoff weight of 350,000 to 400,000 lbs. (compared to about 550,000 lbs of the XB-70). It has 4 turbojet engines with afterburners, probably designed by the Kolesov OKB, which were supposed to enable the T-4 to use supercruise (cruising above Mach 1 without afterburners). The front section with the radar nose and pitot boom -- about 30 feet long -- was designed to drop down for takeoff and landing, to enable the (two ?) crew members to look out of the flat front windows. During flight, with the nose raised, the pilots had only two small windows on each side to look out, and no forward view at all. The first flight was made in 1972 with Sukhoi test pilot Vladimir Ilyushin, probably at the Ramenskoye bomber test center near Moscow. In July 1983, the USSR claimed 14 world air speed and altitude records for "Aircraft 101", a low-wing delta, powered by four "Type 57" engines. The records were set on two flights, carrying 30,000 kg (66,138 lbs.) of payload, and covered also lower payload/weight classes. The records were: July 13, 1983 -- average speed around a 1,000 km closed circuit: 1,262 mph (or Mach 1.9). July 20, 1983 -- average speed around a 2,000 km closed circuit: 1,250 mph (or Mach 1.89). -- altitude reached: 59,711 feet. Since the late 1980s, one of the T-4 prototypes is displayed at the Monino Air Museum, carrying the code "101" on its side. NATO never assigned a Reporting Name to the Sukhoi T-4, but the USA DoD assigned the preliminary code "Ram-H" to an aircraft at Ramenskoye, which could be the Sukhoi T-4 / Su-100 or maybe a modified Tu-144. Because the USSR usually did not hide its civilian planes behind fake/code designations, when claiming FAI records, and the prototype at Monino still wears its tactical number "101", the record "Aircraft 101", as well as the "Ram-H" aircraft are most likely the Sukhoi T-4. - -- Andreas PS: I would also appreciate more info on the OKB Sukhoi book! - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@arn.net (Illya Kuryakin) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 17:05:24 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: From Cornet's web publication + How many times does it need to be said? Messages about UFOs have + absolutely nothing to do with the Skunk Works! This list is concerned + with conventional aircraft built with current or realistically + feasible technology. If you think that Lockheed is building flying + saucers, please post your messages concerning this on alt.conspiracy + or similar newsgroup or mailing list. I won't waste bandwidth quoting + the whole message. Even Ben Rich (head of the Skunk Works) admitted to working on UFO's at the Skunk Works. He called them 'Un-Funded Opportunities'. ;) IMHO, it applies. Also, it fits quite nicely with the jpg I 'tried' to post. *shrug* It's a gray area. ;) Illya ------------------------------ From: jackg@holobyte.com (Jack Gibbons) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 16:25:24 -0700 Subject: Re[3]: From Cornet's web publication It's one thing to call an unidentified object a UFO (Unidentified Flying Object) but it is another to immediately jump to the assumption that these are alien spacecraft or derived from alien technology. We have no credible information that says that we have any alien space craft. I don't think that we should make these large assumptions without some foundation in fact. I believe that we are not alone but I don't believe in saying that every aircraft that does something unusual or we can't identify is an alien craft. The only way that we will learn anything from each other on this list is if we look at mysterious objects from a scientific point of view, trying not to make assumptions about what they are, and stating those assumptions as fact, without direct evidence pointing to that conclusion. The message that I was referring to made that large leap of faith without any evidence pointing to that assumption. How do we know that these aircraft were not conventional aircraft with advanced capabilities? I am not saying that they weren't but I have no evidence that they were. If I were to see an FBI agent on the street, it would be paranoid for me to immediately make the assumption that the government was after me. All I am saying is that we shouldn't make rash judgments about what we don't understand because we will most likely end up traveling down the wrong path. I don't think that the purpose of this list is to make blanket assumptions but to talk about what we do know and to put together the facts to draw a feasible conclusion that fits within those facts and known technology. Sorry for the long rant, I just don't want to see this list go the way of the wind because all of the people with the facts get tired of being ignored. Lumber >:-[ - "I've done it over and over.. You see, I kill breeders." - "God is dead." -Nietzche Here thar be monsters! - "Nietzche is dead." -God "Hey ho! Let's go!" ******************************************************************** * E-mail: lumber@zoom.com | lumber@dnai.com | jackg@holobyte.com * ******************************************************************** ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re[2]: From Cornet's web publication Author: kuryakin@arn.net (Illya Kuryakin) at Internet Date: 06/09/95 17:05 + How many times does it need to be said? Messages about UFOs have + absolutely nothing to do with the Skunk Works! This list is concerned + with conventional aircraft built with current or realistically + feasible technology. If you think that Lockheed is building flying + saucers, please post your messages concerning this on alt.conspiracy + or similar newsgroup or mailing list. I won't waste bandwidth quoting + the whole message. Even Ben Rich (head of the Skunk Works) admitted to working on UFO's at the Skunk Works. He called them 'Un-Funded Opportunities'. ;) IMHO, it applies. Also, it fits quite nicely with the jpg I 'tried' to post. *shrug* It's a gray area. ;) Illya ------------------------------ From: "Randall M. Clague" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 95 18:14:36 PDT Subject: Re: zoomall.jpg In Message Thu, 8 Jun 1995 18:05:07 -0500 (CDT), czbb062 writes: >I downloaded Illya's pictur>aircraft, #5 seems more like what photographers call caca, that is dirt >specks that got on the film before exposure or during processing. Astronomers used to call them EKOs - Eastman Kodak Objects. Randall - -- Randall M. Clague | Zodiac Arbitrations | STOP CONTINENTAL DRIFT rclague@netcom.com | ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 00:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: zoomall.jpg Ooops... The file was truncated during the transfer from my computer at home to my account with the home page. It is fixed now, and it works -- I tested it. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #296 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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