From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #298 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Monday, 12 June 1995 Volume 05 : Number 298 In this issue: Mail Delivery Status Skunkworks listserv Re: Skunkworks listserv Re: Skunkworks listserv Re: This discussion group - UFO's or no UFO's? Re: UFOs and Skunk Works Details... 'black" aircraft speculations Re[2]: UFOs and Skunk Works Re: Details... re: Classified Space Shuttle Missions See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Central Postmaster" Date: 11 Jun 1995 05:14:05 GMT Subject: Mail Delivery Status ***** Error in Mail Delivery ***** SNADS TEMPORARY SERVER ERROR Recipients: NOTES.WHO@A50VM1.TRG.NYNEX.COM ------------------------------ From: Adrian Thurlow Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 11:29:24 +0100 Subject: Skunkworks listserv Hi Skunkworks fans, I've been away for a few days and I'm catching up on my mail. There has been a great deal of discussion about what constitutes legitimate postings to this discussion group ie. UFO's or no UFO's. I enclose the charter for this group below: >>The skunk-works-digest mailing list was created for discussions of advanced technology aircraft and historical discussions about products of the Lockheed Advanced Development Company (LADC), also known as the Skunk Works. Primary areas of discussion include: U-2 and variants SR-71 and variants F-117 TR-3A "Aurora" and variants Book reviews are occasionally posted. Since the list is mostly made up of aircraft enthusiasts, we're pretty casual about the discussion topics. We've digressed in the past on the XB-70 and the B-58 Hustler, for example, even though they don't technically fit the charter. Classified information is strictly prohibited.<<< No where does it mention anything about UFO's (alien spacecraft etc.). Remember that the owner of this listserv has gone to the trouble of providing it and I assume that he wrote the charter. Those who are not following the charter are abusing it. If there is a large number of poeple who want to write on these subjects I suggest that one of them set up their own listserv, or use Usenet, and leave us others to discuss more rational subjects. I accept that everyone has their own opinion on these things but each should have their own soapbox from which to shout about it. Surely this is not asking too much. Regards Adrian Thurlow Technology Integration / Det.4 9th SRW \ B48 Room 5 / \ BT Labs / _ \ Martlesham Heath ____(( ))_________/_/_\_\_________(( ))____ Ipswich \ \_/ / Suffolk U.K. Now only distant thunder Tel. +44 1473 644880 Fax. +44 1473 646534 e-mail. adrian.thurlow@bt-sys.bt.co.uk The views expressed above are not necessarily those of BT. ------------------------------ From: wizard@sccsi.com (John F. Regus) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 09:06:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Skunkworks listserv Adrian; I want to take your argument one step further about the charter, i.e. those who abuse the charter will have their mailing privilidges revoked for a period of 6 mos. - 1 year by having their internet address "unsubscribed" at the host, and their internet address firewalled from accessing the host during that period of time. Censorship does have its place. For the same reason Home and Garden and Reader's Digest do not have centerfolds, UFO discussions can be routed elsewhere. I want this bbs to re-attract the industry professional into the discussions. ************************************************************************* * STRATACOM WORLDNET * internet: wizard@sccsi.com | SYS/370/390 * internet: STRATACOM_WORLDNET@msn.com | Systems Software Engineering * voice: 713-960-0045 | Data and Tele-Communications * fax/data:713-960-0015 | * WUI: REGUSHOU | John F. Regus, Consultant ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@arn.net (Illya Kuryakin) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 12:52:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Skunkworks listserv John F. Regus had the audacity to say: +Adrian; + +I want to take your argument one step further about the charter, i.e. those +who abuse the charter will have their mailing privilidges revoked for a +period of 6 mos. - 1 year by having their internet address "unsubscribed" at +the host, and their internet address firewalled from accessing the host +during that period of time. Egad... this thread is back. Does somebody have a copy of the charter? Will they post it? Thanks, Illya ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@arn.net (Illya Kuryakin) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 13:12:02 -0500 Subject: Re: This discussion group - UFO's or no UFO's? +This discussion group - UFO's or no UFO's? + +I enclose the charter for this group below: + +>>The skunk-works-digest mailing list was created for discussions of advanced +technology aircraft and historical discussions about products of the +Lockheed Advanced Development Company (LADC), also known as the +Skunk Works. So... #1 Advanced Technology Aircraft #2 Products of the LADC/Skunk Works +Primary areas of discussion include: + U-2 and variants check + SR-71 and variants check + F-117 check + TR-3A Is this LADC? Or Northrop? Doesn't matter, it meets #1. + "Aurora" and variants Sounds like a UFO, to me. Still, it meets #1. + +Book reviews are occasionally posted. Plus an occasional eulogy or sitrep. + +Since the list is mostly made up of aircraft enthusiasts, we're pretty +casual about the discussion topics. We've digressed in the past on the +XB-70 and the B-58 Hustler, for example, even though they don't technically +fit the charter. + +Classified information is strictly prohibited.<<< Sounds fine to me. :) + +No where does it mention anything about UFO's (alien spacecraft etc.). By definition a UFO is not automatically an alien spacecraft. By definition anything that flies that the government has yet to reveal (IE Black Prototypes or Operational Aircraft) are UFO's. By definition the charter is vague. +Remember that the owner of this listserv has gone to the trouble of +providing it and I assume that he wrote the charter. Those who are not +following the charter are abusing it. If there is a large number of poeple +who want to write on these subjects I suggest that one of them set up their +own listserv, or use Usenet, and leave us others to discuss more rational +subjects. I accept that everyone has their own opinion on these things but +each should have their own soapbox from which to shout about it. Surely this +is not asking too much. Because the performance characteristics of our own a/c have improved to the point where they are indistinguishable from purported performance characteristics of supposed 'alien UFO's and... Because any black program with flyable assets that we cannot readily identify flies 'UFO's then... Just _where DO_ you draw the line? The author? The location? Color of paint? The information source? Besides, the traffic is very light on this subject... :) I'd think my attempting to email/post that .jpg would be far more heinous than discussing some craft in the air that exhibits unusual configuration and flight characteristics and is otherwise unidentified. (And no, I shan't do that again. :) Illya ------------------------------ From: Per Danielsson Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 21:46:48 +0200 Subject: Re: UFOs and Skunk Works Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: >Even so I might get flammed for this -- contrary to Dean Adams and Jack >Gibbons (Lumber), I don't mind the _occasional_ UFO reference in the Skunk >Works List. This list was originally set up for discussion of Lockheed Skunk Works products, particularly the U-2 and the A-12 (and derivatives). Those aircraft are exactly the reason I requested to be on the list. I don't mind posts about other black aircraft, but UFOs are not relevant. I suggest that folks who like to discuss UFOs do that on appropriate forums. Claiming that is is easy to just delete the messages I don't want to read is not a good argument. It takes time to scan the messages and one of the reasons for having specialized mailing lists is to avoid wasting time scanning newsgroups and general message lists. PD - -- Per Danielsson pd@sics.se Swedish Institute of Computer Science, PO Box 1263, S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN N59.24.20, E17.56.53 "Another free program offline." ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 17:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Details... It was interesting to hear and read about the rescue in Bosnia, and the tactics and precision with which the pick up was done. There is still quite a role for advancements in VTOL flight, possibly in AI radar and imaging, where the terrain is preloaded into the flight computer, and where infra-red imaging might be used to get a fix on a downed pilot and so forth. I thought they were fairly open about the mission, but there must have been some hi-tech searching at some point... Did anyone hear anything about the type of craft they used? Some kind of double bladed troop carrier helo. Also interesting were the details of his survival gear; hadn't considered that kind of super sponge that absorbs water, or that they'd actually carry 10 oz of water. Sigh. Anyway, I guess there is one main reason why I'm bringing up a 'not too skunky', but at least military type topic.. 'Cause I can't stand it anymore... - -soap on- It's really irritating for me to see the cover of the Wash Post today, with the pix of Hanford and O'Grady, where upon hearing the tape of his rescue from Bosnia had to suppress intense emotion. What's upsetting is simply that he is =not= torn up by the thought that he could have been killed, or that he was this scared bunny, hiding from the soldiers, as it seems to be being played out by the press. What the intense emotion is, is feelings for his =Comrades= who thought enough of him that they would launch this spectacular and well-precisioned rescue attempt; and risk =their= lives! Here is a man from the most highly trained force in the world, where it's physically tough and emotionally hard and mentally rigorous, and everyone has a job to do, and they spent an enormous resource without even a second thought to pick up their boy. And they did it for love, and it was their best job. But nothing special. That's why he got choked up. In his mind, he was, and is expendable, and he's just a part of the team; a detail, who would never cry for himself. That's a warrior. - -soap off- But they, (and you guys) all know this anyway. So the rest ain't important. ;-) regards, BaDge ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 14:46:33 PDT Subject: 'black" aircraft speculations Here's my current "educated guesses" about some of the "black" aircraft programs at Groom Lake and elsewhere, based on documents that I have. * Testing is continuing on the SENIOR CITIZEN (Program Element (PE) 0401316F) aircraft. I have seen a DoD document that indicates it is an "advanced tactical airlift aircraft", i.e., a transport, not an "Aurora" as some people have suggested. I think this aircraft is in the V/STOL category. * There are a couple of exotic proof-of-concept aircraft in the Groom hangars, such as THEME CASTLE (PE 0401129F). * There is a hypersonic TAV (Trans-atmospheric Vehicle) known as OMEGA (PE 0207591F). I don't know if it is manned or not. * The Air Force may have bought some A-12 Avenger-II stealth attack aircraft, and now can't admit this, because of the political repercussions. (The Navy planned to buy several hundred of these and the Air Force planned to buy around 40, as part of the Advanced Tactical Aircraft program. See PE 0207140F for further info.) The Navy cancelled the A-12, senior Navy officials were fired, Congressional hearings were held a couple of years ago, and the suppliers (General Dynamics and McDonnell-Douglas) are suing the Navy for 3.5 billion dollars for breach of contract. Not the ideal time for the Air Force to admit it bought some... I suspect that when people claim to have seen the so-called TR-3A Black Manta, what they've actually seen is an Air Force version of the A-12 Avenger-II. NOTE: This A-12 is -not- the same aircraft as the predecessor to the SR-71. See Janes "All the world's aircraft" 1993-1994 edition for an illustration of the A-12. * SENIOR SMART (unknown PE number) is not an aircraft per se, but an advanced intelligence gathering "package" for aircraft such as the newly modified U-2S. The available evidence, including material from the contractors, indicates that SENIOR SMART is a SIGINT (Signals Intelligence) collection "package". Speaking of Groom (aka "DET 1" after Detachment 1, Aeronautical Systems Center), I obtained a copy of the letter Secretary of the Air Force Widnall sent to Secretary of the Interior Babbitt seeking the withdrawal of Freedom Ridge and White Sides from the BLM. What is particularly revealing is her comment that the period of "maximum segregation" is the 2 years immediately after the withdrawal, where even the BLM won't be allowed in. This suggests that something big is happening up there for only the next 2 years. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/home.html ********************************************************************** Anonymous FTP access to files dealing with excessive military secrecy is available from Internet host ftp.shell.portal.com (IP address 156.151.3.4) in the /pub/trader directory. Read the 00readme files for descriptions of the files. Writings from Glenn Campbell, author of the "Area 51 Viewer's Guide" are available in /pub/trader/secrecy/psychospy. (America Online users can use Keyword:FTP, and Web users can use URL ftp://ftp.shell.portal.com/pub/trader/ ) ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 16:01:00 EST Subject: Re[2]: UFOs and Skunk Works Now I'm feeling less chastised as the messenger in this brouhaha. Anyway, I've had interests in space exploration and UFOs since the late 1950s. Even as a casual reader of UFO literature for almost 40 years I had never heard of the Cornet web page. FWIW, whilst engaged in NATO communications on assignment to Naples, Italy in 1978 (August through December), we experienced numerous UFO sighting reports as "observed" by a few individuals, dozens, hundreds, and thousands. The latter was observed in the Bay of Naples including many U.S. sailors on ships of the Sixth Fleet. Well, I forwarded many anecdotal accounts, clippings from Italian newspapers, and the summaries of two interviews to the editor of *Flying Saucer Review* in London. Foolishly, I didn't keep copies and all this material is/was lost in his country home. Regards, Terry Terry W. Colvin Voice: [520]538-5392 U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program FAX: [520]538-5435 Air Tasking Orders [Desert Storm I] DSN: 879-5392 Fort Huachuca (Cochise County), Arizona USA "No editor ever likes the way a story tastes unless he pees in it first." -Mark Twain ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: UFOs and Skunk Works Author: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) at smtp Date: 10/6/1995 7:35 AM > Even so I might get flammed for this -- contrary to Dean Adams and Jack > Gibbons (Lumber), I don't mind the _occasional_ UFO reference in the Skunk > Works List. I don't necessarily mind the occasional reference, but a lot depends on the particular reference involved. Some can be more appropriate than others, and may indeed have a connection to the sort of topics usually of interest here. My objection here was one of a very specific nature, based on the various material I have read from this particular source. My conclusion was that he is a "UFO nut case" of the highest order, who had some of the most irrational and delusional writings that i've ever seen. So naturally I didn't find him very appropriate for this list, but then that is only one person's opinion... :) ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 22:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Details... > It was interesting to hear and read about the rescue in Bosnia, and the > tactics and precision with which the pick up was done. There is still > quite a role for advancements in VTOL flight, I think these type of missions are a perfect selling point for the V-22 program. Combat search and rescue is an area where the V-22 Osprey will provide a major advantage over the current capability. By operating at twice the speed of today's rescue helicopters, they can both get to a downed pilot faster, and reduce the time rescue crews are exposed to possible enemy fire. > possibly in AI radar and > imaging, where the terrain is preloaded into the flight computer, and > where infra-red imaging might be used to get a fix on a downed pilot and > so forth. I thought they were fairly open about the mission, but there > must have been some hi-tech searching at some point... Did anyone hear > anything about the type of craft they used? They used two Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallions flown by the Marines, which is about the largest and fastest helicopter in the inventory. ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 23:46:50 PDT Subject: re: Classified Space Shuttle Missions In an earlier message, Roger Guillemette wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions of what offices/departments within > the Air Force or the DoD were directly responsible for pre-flight > training and actual mission control/mission operations during the > classified Space Shuttle flights? The intention, of course, would be > to direct FOIA requests to those offices. Try the following addresses (ask them to route them to the proper office if they don't have the information, since these are headquarters addresses): 11 MSS/MSIS (FOIA) 1000 Air Force Pentagon Washington, DC 20330-1000 FOIA Officer National Reconnaissance Office 1040 Defense Pentagon Washington, DC 20301-1040 OASD/PA Directorate for Freedom of Information and Security Review 1400 Defense Pentagon Washington, DC 20301-1400 You should probably also take a look at the laws and regulations in effect concerning how these agencies handle FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) case. Refer to: * Title 5, United States Code, Section 552 (5 U.S.C. 552) * Title 32, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 286 (32 C.F.R. 286) for Department of Defense FOIA regulations. * 32 C.F.R. 806 for Air Force FOIA regulations. * 32 C.F.R. 296 for NRO FOIA regulations. Also, I have some material on the FOIA on my FTP site, ftp.shell.portal.com in the directory /pub/trader/FOIA/. (For those used to the Web, use URL ftp://ftp.shell.portal.com/pub/trader/FOIA/ ) Let me know if you need further assistance. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/home.html ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #298 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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