From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #327 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 8 July 1995 Volume 05 : Number 327 In this issue: Re: Me again... :) re: SR-71 top speed a reply to your note US RPV Deployed in Albania ?! RE: US RPV Deployed in Albania ?! Sea Shadow retires Re: Me again... :) Re: US RPV Deployed in Albania ?! B-35/B-49 Michael Rust X-35 Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #325 Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #325 Site 6 (Plant 42) surveillance report See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Allegrezza 07-Jul-1995 0703 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 07:07:37 EDT Subject: Re: Me again... :) Off charter but . . didn't the Air Defense Force (or whatever it was) Air Marshall literally get taken out and shot as a result of the Rust incident? George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "He has a perfect face for radio." Mobile Systems Business | Littleton MA USA | -- from "Quiz Show" allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 01:33:00 -0500 Subject: re: SR-71 top speed > Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:40:54 -0400 (EDT) > From: Mary Shafer > Subject: Re: D-21 and SR-71 > Message-Id: MS> The SR-71 can go up to about Mach 3.3 or 500 KEAS (fig. 5-3 in the > Dash 1). It's an inlet temperature thing. Anything higher is > nonsense. MS> The Machmeter only goes to 4, too. Mary, this reminds, in an odd way perhaps, what happened to my old 1966 Chevelle on one extremely cold day in Chicago. My son started to drive somewhere and the speedometer needle wouldn't move much; a common thing for this old car in cold climate. I think the cable had condensation in it and it froze which prevented the cable from turning. Well all of a sudden the highly wound up cable overcame the resistance of the frozen water, grease, whatever. My son reported that this time the needle flew beyond the max speed on the panel (120 mph I think). He said it went off scale and never returned! I guess the cable snapped the needle off the shaft. By that time we had about 220K miles on the car so we decided not to waste time or money fixing it. We would just drive until we were going at a speed that sounded right for the posted speed limit. I think a Machmeter that only goes to 4 is more than enough for real SR-71 pilots. I hope the person who posted the note you replied to will pardon my sarcasm. It's just that you and a lot of other people have heard such high numbers before that a bit of sarcasm (my note, not your reply) is bound to leak out now and then. I don't know why my old car's speedometer had a maximum number of 120 mph. By the time it was going 70 mph, there was enough shaking and rattling that it was obvious that it wasn't wise to try to squeeze more speed out of it! - --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ I'm not sure where we're at, but we're making good time. ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 01:30:00 -0500 Subject: a reply to your note > Message-Id: > Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 00:43:14 -0600 > From: whl@mcs.com (William H. Leininger) > Subject: Re: Vulcan crash at Glenview WHL> The crash, which was indeed during a practice, was into a landfill > north of the base. I live not too far away, and frequently saw the > Vulcan in previous years when it was in town for the show. (One > time I was in the Northwestern University tech library when the > Vulcan passed over and went into a climb out over the lake. I > concur with those on the list who say > it was one of the noisiest planes to be in the exhaust stream of.) WHL> I do seem to recall that all the crew was killed, but as it hit a > landfill, there were no other fatalities. WHL> The last vulcan is indeed retired; I believe there was an article > in Smithsonian Air & Space on the subject 1 - 2 years ago. The > last ones were used in air shows. WHL> If you don't get any more definite replies, let me know. I can > probably get you the date, but it would take some digging which I > won't have time for this month. Thanks for the info. It's a lucky thing if crashed into a landfill rather than an apartment complex. Perhaps someone else has info on the cause of the crash. I really don't expect you to dig futher. I think you filled in some gaps and that's very much appreciated. The last image in my mind from the newscasts is that some RAF officer who flew from England to here to investigate the accident talked with reporters briefly. It was obvious from the expression on his face that he agreed with the reporter that it was an unfortunate tradgedy for the family's of the dead crewmen. I think the reporter knew that the officer had only recently arrived so he didn't ask the usual question about what happened. This is quite a contrast to a tv news segment about a restored plane that crashed at DuPage airport. The on-the-scene reported said there were 2 people on board: pilot and their mechanic and that both perished. Then the newscast switches back to the studio where the newsperson asked about the fate of the passengers. It had already been established that there were no passengers. þ SLMR 2.1a þ How to fly: Up? Pull back on stick. Down? Pull farther! ------------------------------ From: "Michael F. Peyton" <0003248388@mcimail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 10:53 EST Subject: US RPV Deployed in Albania ?! I caught, out of the corner of my ear, a NPR broadcast the afternoon of 7/6/95 that reported that the US was deploying a RPV at an airfield in Albania. The report said that it was still in crates and was planned to be used for surveilance over the former Yugoslovia. It was not clear if this is one of the new high speed / high flyer models that we have been talking about here. It might well be one of the many US Army low speed / low flying models that have been around for quite a while. The main reason to post here is that this might be one of the first deployments of the new technologies. Please post a note if anyone has more information, or can verify, or correct the story. I did scan the 7/7/95 Washington Post and did not see any story. I also this it is absolutely amazing that Albania would have anything to do with the US, after all the anti-America trash coming out of Abainia in past years. Maybe I got the country wrong, but I am sure that is what I heard, as that is what caught my attention. It does make sense, of sorts, because Albania is strategicly placed for operations into the former Yugoslovia. Mike Peyton mpeyton@mcimail.com ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 07-Jul-1995 1355 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 14:06:30 EDT Subject: RE: US RPV Deployed in Albania ?! It's probably the General Atomics Predator UAV. It's a small piston-powered low-flying system. All the high-tech is in the sensor package and the data link. It's cheap, easy to use, and in the Yugoslavian environment, not especially vulnerable, because it's small size makes identification, let alone interception, difficult. The CIA had a Predator in Albania last year. It worked out well. I think Albania has read the papers and knows that the USSR is dead, thus they have to open up to the west. It's a pretty poor country, too, so they need aid and investment, regardless of their nominal ideology. They'll drop the anti-American routine in a heartbeat if it means Uncle Sam (and Uncle Hans and Uncle Francois) bring in some hard currency. Letting the CIA operate a surveillance operation within their borders is one small way to show they care. :-) George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "He has a perfect face for radio." Mobile Systems Business | Littleton MA USA | -- from "Quiz Show" allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | ------------------------------ From: Dave Cox Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:37:10 Subject: Sea Shadow retires From the San Diego Union 07/07/95 p. B2 Formerly top-secret stealth ship slips unnoticed into retirement. "Even in retirement, the Navy's stealth ship is pretty sneaky. The once-classified Sea Shadow, housed inside a giant barge, slipped into San Diego without fanfare or much notice in late May, Navy officials confirmed. Even the Pentagon public affairs officer assigned to answer questions about the ship was unaware it had moved from San Francisco Bay to San Diego. The sea shadow and its barge are tied up near Pier 14 at the San Deigo Naval Station at 32nd Street said local Navy spokeswoman Julie Swan. It is alongside other derelicts and Navy has-beens. [...] The Sea Shadow's retirement is indefinite, Swan said." - --dave ------------------------------ From: "Robin J. Lee" Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Me again... :) On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, George Allegrezza 07-Jul-1995 0703 wrote: > Off charter but . . didn't the Air Defense Force (or whatever it was) > Air Marshall literally get taken out and shot as a result of the Rust > incident? Not shot, but put out to pasture along with the Defense Minister, pretty much as a consolidating move by Gorbachev in order to bludgeon the crusty old generals left over from the Brezhnev era into line. As an interesting sidenote, Alexander Zuyev claims that a Voyska PVO (Air Defense) MiG-23 pilot did run a visual intercept on Rust's Cessna 172 and was flatly told that he was looking at a flock of birds. (Gorby's handpicked successor to the Defense Ministry, Dimitri Yazov, was of course later involved up to his shoulderboards in the August '91 coup. Maybe it would've been better for everybody if they dressed up Rust in a suit of tin foil and claimed he arrived in a UFO. But then we'd REALLY be off-charter.) Back to lurking, Robin. ____________________________________________________________________________ Robin J. Lee amraam@netcom.com Vulture's Row Worldwide Web Page URL: http://webcom.com/~amraam/ ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: US RPV Deployed in Albania ?! The USAF has deployed about 100 personnel to Albania, to support the first operational mission of the new Tier 2 UAV, the General Atomics 'Predator'. The UAV, of which 10 are in the US military service, was tested very successfully during the 'Roving Sands' exercise, earlier this year in the USA. It uses Line-Of-Sight (LOS) data links to relay visual, InfraRed and radar pictures to a mobile ground station or to an airborne relay aircraft (for example a Schweizer RG-8A motor glider). Some are also equipped with a satellite data link for Over-The-Horizon (OTH) operations. I have no idea though, if the deployed Tier 2s are OTH or only LOS equipped. The most astonishing part to me is, that the CIA was allowed already to fly surveillance missions out of Albania last year, using their Tier 1 UAV, based on the General Atomics 'Gnat 750'. They also used an RG-8A flying out of Tirana (?). Albania is not only the poorest European country, but until the communist regime was overthrown in 1991 (?), was one of the most closed societies, together with other communist-ruled countries, like North Korea and the PRC. After hundreds of thousands fled over the Adriatic Sea to Italy, it seems that the Western European countries and the USA are helping Albania for various reasons. Most countries in Europe, especially Italy, don't want to be flooded by Albanian refugees, and the USA is very happy to have an outpost for its military and surveillance operations in the area. The USA is also conducting joint military exercises in Albania and Hungary, right now, as they did before with Russia and the Ukraine. Albania is also obviously afraid of the Serbians in Yugoslavia, and is concerned about the Albanians living in the Kosovo (sp ?) region in Yugoslavia. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: B-35/B-49 There are several reasons, why the Northrop flying wings B-35 and B-49 did not go into production. The major reason the B-35 lost out against the B-36 was probably because the layout, size and weight of the early US nuclear weapons were so secret, that the engineers at Convair and Northrop had to design those bombers without any data concerning those weapons. Convair, with its 'real big' B-36 was much luckier than Northrop, with its 'real elegant' B-35 in this respect. The weapons bays of the B-35s were too small to accommodate those bombs (Mk.I, Mk.III, and Mk.IV). At the beginning, the B-35 showed some instability problems, which could have been overcome, but the cancellation of the project prevented this. The B-49s had even more problems, missing the stabilizing effects of the engine nacells, and the propellers (originally even counter-rotating), so they had to add fins. Northrop had also to fight on the 'political front' against some people in the 'Industrial-Military-Complex', who wanted him to merge with Convair, which he refused. It ended with Northrop being forced to destroy all of the USAF-owned B-35s and B-49s, the remains of which were then sold for scrap. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Michael Rust Michael Rust was a disturbed kid. He did this stunt flight in the Cessna 172 to get attention. One could say he was not as crazy as the guy who crash landed on the White House lawn, but he did endanger himself and a whole lot of people, when he landed on the 'Red Square' in Moscow. After he served some time in a Russian prison, he went back to Germany, where he soon winded up behind bars again, for stalking and finally stabbing a nurse. Quite a wierdo. To assume he would have had any form of stealth equipment on board of his Cessna, seems to me as crazy as thinking he was telepathically controlled by aliens, who observed him from one of their UFOs, or sent by the CIA to spy on the Soviets, especially their prisons. :) - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: X-35 I haven't heard about any project designated X-35 in any official Department of Defense (DoD) statement. NASA was working on the so-called HL-20 a while back, based on previous lifting body experiences, which was to be used as a rescue system for astronauts, particulary in connection with the Space Station 'Alpha' (then still called 'Freedom'). Some University kids even built a full scale model/mock-up, as far as I know. The designation X-35 would have had to be assigned by the DoD, and not NASA, though. It seems to me that a more likely candidate for the X-35 would be 'Black Horse' or maybe its little brother 'Black Colt', if they ever get funded. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: KavanaghNY@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 18:38:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #325 If it was rehashing the HL-20 design wouldn't that sort-of fall under the X-33 specifications not the X-35 ( which I haven't even heard about)? KavanaghNY ------------------------------ From: KavanaghNY@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 18:38:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #325 What you described sounds like an experimental aircraft....the XV-23 I believe. We have one of the experimental aircraft in a hangar owned by Calspan here in buffalo. I do not know why they would still be testing that aircraft unless the airframe happened to fit a the requirements for some new equipment being tested. KavanaghNY ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 20:59:36 PDT Subject: Site 6 (Plant 42) surveillance report Site 6 (Air Force Plant 42) -- July 5, 1995 surveillance report by Paul McGinnis (July 7, 1995) (I'm posting the following because I've noticed that some people visit military sites just once, claim to see all kinds of amazing things, and write about their "experience". (As an example, I saw someone's story about how they visited a number of places in California's Antelope Valley, Tonopah Test Range, Nevada's Tikaboo Valley (Groom Lake), and White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, in the course of 5 days, and saw all kinds of secret aircraft and UFOs. Ignoring the fact that to make that kind of loop you'd have to be driving on many highways across 4 states for all of those 5 days, nobody ever gets that lucky. So, I decided to write about a not particularly eventful trip I just made out to the desert. There are no "Aurora" sightings, black helicopters, grey aliens, etc. but hopefully, a more realistic tale.) Yes, I know that a lot of people's response will be, "Get a life!" The main purpose of this expedition was to lurk around the U.S. Air Force's Plant 42 installation in Palmdale, California early on a work day morning to monitor what flew in and out of Site 6, operated by defense contractor EG&G. There had been a rumor that Groom Lake base workers flew out of there, like they do in 737s at McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas. Plant 42 is home to Lockheed's "Skunk Works" where classified aircraft are built. Rockwell, Northrop, and other defense contractors also have large operations at Plant 42, which employs more than 9,000 people. Internet users can see a map of Plant 42, and other info I have posted at: http://www.portal.com/~trader/gav.html I decided to conduct my surveillance on the day after the July 4th holiday, when everybody would have to come back to work. I arrived in the Antelope Valley on the afternoon of July 4th and scouted the base. Even though I've lurked around the base a number of times in the past, and have material on the installation that was released under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), I still wanted to find a decent place just outside the fence to watch Site 6, which is towards the center of the installation near the control tower. There are other viewing spots, such as the fence on the west near Sierra Highway, where one can study Lockheed's "Skunk Works", or a place known as "John's Spot", a patch of dirt on the east side of the base fence, next to the end of the runways, where you can watch aircraft arriving or departing. The best spot I found was a boulder in the parking lot of Palmdale Regional Airport, on the south side of the base. According to Air Force material I had, the tower didn't open until 6:00 in the morning. I tried to find a cheap motel near Plant 42, but had to make do with a place 3 miles (4.8 km) away. I had to convince the clerk that I wanted a room on the top (3rd) floor, even though they had plenty of rooms on the ground floor. (I didn't tell her that I wanted to be as high above the ground as possible, for better radio reception for my scanner -- I had a Radio Shack Pro-26 with me, with continuous coverage up to 1.3 GHz, except for the cellular telephone frequencies.) I got up the next morning at 5:00, in order to get to Plant 42 before 6:00. Unfortunately, I heard the Palmdale tower on 123.7 MHz, around 5:10 stating that they "had one going out for Lockheed" and identified the aircraft type as a Cessna. After a quick shower, I sped over to Plant 42, but the aircraft had already departed. I decided to monitor what was flying at Plant 42 up until 8:00, when I would have to leave and commute 2 hours to my job. While sitting on the rock, I came up with an idea that avoided problems with the local law enforcement. Since aerospace workers wear photo ID badges, I put mine on, even though it was not for any of the contractors at Plant 42. This would prove useful later, when a Palmdale Airport police officer came by, and didn't find anything unusual about a guy (me) with big 10x50 binoculars and a radio studying the base, because the guy was wearing a badge. There didn't seem to much activity in Site 6, which didn't look like it could handle 737s. (My vantage point was almost 1 mile (1.6 km) away.) The main buildings at Site 6 are a medium-sized Quonset hut and a small hangar.) For some time, the only activity was the departure of United Express turboprops from Palmdale Airport. While waiting for something to happen I saw a gorgeous desert sunrise and randomly searched for new frequencies with the scanner. (I found 2 new frequencies -- aircraft departing Palmdale switched to 124.55 MHz, and I heard Air Force SPs at Edwards AFB giving traffic tickets on 148.05 MHz). Around 6:50 in the morning a two engine Cessna (of the type used to carry business executives around) landed at Plant 42, and pulled up to the Quonset hut in Site 6. At this point, I realized I was witnessing what I had come to see. A truck carrying aircraft fuel appeared and a ground crew started servicing the aircraft. Passengers eventually boarded the aircraft and it left around 7:30. I actually heard the Palmdale tower give the destination of the aircraft. Their message was, "King Air [garbled] cleared from Palmdale to Tonopah". This was not what I expected, but pretty reasonable -- EG&G (and their subsidiary REECo) operates Site 6 and Tonopah Test Range (TTR) in Nevada. A former aerospace worker explained that King Air does a lot of business flying defense workers around to remote locations. Perhaps, the reason for the rumor that these flights go to unknown destinations was that the person didn't have a radio to listen to the tower. (My own guess is that Groom Lake base workers probably fly to Las Vegas on Monday mornings, stay in motels or hotels in Vegas during the week, while they fly out to Groom each day, and then return back to Southern California on Friday evenings.) Summary: I now have a better idea about Site 6 activities. As I mentioned at the beginning of this message, and people who follow military activities can confirm, most of our trips are pretty uneventful. For example, I've hiked in to see Groom Lake both with groups and on my own. All I've ever seen is a large air base in a remote desert location. But, that's not the point. The point is that it gives one a chance to get away from the city, and satisfy one's curiousity. The military is usually aware that you are watching them, and you probably won't see anything really shocking. Normally, the extent of interest the military shows in you is to have their security men study you. Yes, you end up staring at them with binoculars, while they stare back at you with binoculars. In case anyone is interested, here's what I had in my scanner: Frequencies (in MHz) (AM unless otherwise indicated): 121.9 - Palmdale ground control 123.325, 123.425 - Lockheed - aero band 123.7 - Palmdale tower 124.55 - Palmdale departures 126.1 - Joshua Approach/Departure (I have heard controller giving private planes instructions on how to avoid Plant 42's and Edwards AFB restricted air space on 126.1) 149.505 (FM) - Plant 42 (now encrypted?) 153.025 (FM) - EG&G 153.2 (FM), 158.295 (FM) - Lockheed Corp. (I have heard Lockheed's fire department on 158.295) 163.4875, 163.5875 - Air Force SPs [used nationwide] 460.1 (FM), 460.525 - Palmdale Airport police 462.425 - Lockheed (security?? encrypted some of the time) 482.8625 - Los Angeles County Sheriff (Antelope Valley - it's always good to have local law enforcement in your radio, in case a base calls them) Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ********************************************************************** Anonymous FTP access to files dealing with excessive military secrecy is available from Internet host ftp.shell.portal.com (IP address 156.151.3.4) in the /pub/trader directory. Read the 00readme files for descriptions of the files. Writings from Glenn Campbell, author of the "Area 51 Viewer's Guide" are available in /pub/trader/secrecy/psychospy. (America Online users can use Keyword:FTP, and Web users can use URL ftp://ftp.shell.portal.com/pub/trader/ ) ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #327 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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