From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #354 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 15 July 1995 Volume 05 : Number 354 In this issue: Re: SR 71 Vne and SCRAM More Calspan, little skunk (sorry) Re: Black Manta Re: Black Manta F-177X F117X not F-177X Smithsonian Air&Space JP-7 Fuel Re[5]: These wretched loudmouths and their UFOs RE: JP-7 fuel See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 03:14:28 PDT Subject: Re: SR 71 Vne and SCRAM Larry, with all politeness and fond admiration, how do you run a static test on a SC engine? Mount it in a M6 tunnel? Also, isn`t the required area ratio between the diffuser and combustion chamber entrance large enough even at 1/2 or 1/3 the freestreem that the engine would have a HUGE entrance and a little tiny combustion chamber? (Stefan Eneceschu, Dan Busuic and I worked on design- It had a combustion chamber of .012m and a diffuser diameter of 26m! Needless to say, the concept was slightly reworked.) Also, the SCRAMjet designs I`ve worked on did, indeed, have flame holders in them. There have been many a long night at UB where fuel droplets and flames have been examined in the shock tube. (The third floor of Furnas Hall) I guess, yes, you can get some supersonic combustion, but even with H2 it isn`t complete. If I remember, H2 gives 101MJ per kg when burned completely with air. The problem I had was that the flame temp wasn`t high enough for a straight shot through the chamber. There wasn`t enough time for convection,and,the flow can`t be turbulent so there is no mixing. The flame isn`t hot enough for radiation to do the rest. The result is localised choking at points in the flow near the injectors. This in turn, causes rotational flow, at which point the whole system goes haywire. Pulsing the fuel will allow some continued burning, but it isn`t terribly efficient. (slight understatememt) Big problem, no make that huge problem- number two is that the FA ratio for a "typical" SCRAMjet is about 0.0029, due to thermal choking. (Remember, choking will always be a problem since you slow down the air to compress it.) This means that you can`t inject liquid fuel. Even if it atomises the FA around the drop is much higher than allowed. What do you do? Enter the flame holder. It not only adds localized turbulence for flame propogation and mixing, but causes a weak shock. These shocks just "explode" a fuel drop to tiny little pieces, increasing combustion efficiency. A few words more about shocks. Yes, in a supercritical duct there is no normal shock at the entrance or anywhere else for that matter. There is however, a complex system of attached shocks interacting along the entire length of the duct. See any good compressible flow handbook with shadowgraphs. ( I forgot how to spell Schlerien) Hey, gotta run, Chuck ------------------------------ From: "George Haberberger" Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 19:44:04 -0400 Subject: More Calspan, little skunk (sorry) Calspan also did a stunt for James Bond movie, the one in South East Asia, perhaps "The Man With the Golden Gun". They did a stunt where a car jumped a river, doing a barrel roll through the air to land right side up (the take-off ramp induced the roll). I was told that the ramp was still visible near their Buffalo site, but never saw it. ObSkunk: They also operate many high-speed wind tunnels at Calspan. george ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 06:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Black Manta > I noticed your posting to Forteana, and yes, there is such a craft under > development with SW, though its form and abilities are classified. More accurately, there is such a craft that has been hypothesized as having been developed by Northrop. > It only resembles the "Stealth" in color, and probably composition. The standard "Black Manta" (aka TR-3A) concept is of a small flying wing design, twin engine, single crew. > I have seen a photo of a proto type That is almost certainly not the case, unless they are referring to a photo of the A-12 Avenger II mockup... or going back farther, the THAP photo that appeared in AW&ST. > It is supposedly 6 times faster than the stealth plane Sounds like now they are confusing it with "Aurora". > The Manta was scheduled to become operational in 1991, though I left > government service before then, so I am unsure of its final function date. There has been NO solid information available about this project, if it even exists/existed at all. Some have suggested that the whole "TR-3A" moniker was nothing more than a misreading of the Tier 3 program. > The main idea for the manta was to build a performance fighter/interceptor, > capable of sustained mach 6. Hmm... now that sounds like someone confusing "Aurora" and taking it off into some entirely new direction. That is certainly no idea i've ever heard attributed to any of these hypothesized programs before. > (Wonder why? No competition worldwide, past mach 3!) > Some mentioned it would take the place of the F-15 and F-16. Ask whoever is making this stuff up! :) > it would be designated "F", due to its fighter characteristics, and > only small bombs or missle s would be able to be used, capable of > wing mounting 4 "Sidewinder" size missles, 2 to a side. Oh yea, that would be *real* stealthy. :) > I had the copy of a white-letter from the director of SW, and in it he > discussed the next level of craft, he hopes it can achieve speeds above > mach 12, but again, that is only his goal for their next product. If I > can find the latter, I' ll send it to you if you like.... That sounds rather amusing, i'd certainly like to see it. ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@arn.net (Illya Kuryakin) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:27:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Black Manta At 06:00 7/14/95, Dean Adams wrote: + > it would be designated "F", due to its fighter characteristics, and + > only small bombs or missle s would be able to be used, capable of + > wing mounting 4 "Sidewinder" size missles, 2 to a side. + +Oh yea, that would be *real* stealthy. :) Actually, at Mach 6, that wouldn't be stealthy, that'd be _fatal_ when the rounds cook off. Illya ------------------------------ From: Jay.Waller@analog.com Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 13:34 EDT Subject: F-177X I remember seeing a drawing (don't remember where, I'll try ot find it this weekend) showing the bottom of the F-177. I'm sure it showed a door where a tail hook was located. I'm not sure if this was a production craft or protoype. Is this real or just a fanciful,artist's interpretation? I remembered this after reading the post from Andreas on the latest AW&ST. It mentioned the F-177X might start tests for the Navy. Jay ------------------------------ From: Jay.Waller@analog.com Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 14:46 EDT Subject: F117X not F-177X My proof reading abilities are nil. I meant _F-117X_ not F-177X. Please forgive me, its Friday and I'm ready to get out of here. Can't wait to see how many corrections I get on this. Trying harder, Jay ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Smithsonian Air&Space I just got a look at a back issue of SA&S, and was surprised to find that a group of citizens and buffs got together to restore a version of the flying wing. Volunteers at the Chino, California Planes of Fame Museum unveiled the fruits of their 12 year labor to restore a Northrop N9M-B Flying Wing in an SRO exhibition last December (it says they actually flew the durn thing!). "Four one-third-scale wooden N9M-Bs, with twin piston engines and 60 foot wingspans, were built in the 1940s as part of the AF's B-35 and B-49 flying wing program..." This sucker is the cutest little yellow twin prop deathtrap you'd ever wanta get into. Just kidding, but it is cute, and doesn't =look= like it could fly if you're used to piper cubs, etc. It looks about the size of one in general. In one of the vignettes at the beginining of the magazine (love that sectin), ha, they mention a little SR story... `On the maiden flight, Gilliland took off from Palmdale on December 22, 1964, and flew at subsonic speeds until he was about 200 miles to the north. He then climbed to 50,000 feet. On the return to Palmdale, famed Lockheed designer Kelly J. ordered a low-level flyby. "There was fuel streaming out of the bottom of the plane, " says Gilliland. "Some general nudged him and said, 'What's =that=?'. I think Kelly regretted that flyby."' - -SA&S April/May 1995 (please excuse, SA&S subscribers, and those to whom this is old news) regards, BaDge ------------------------------ From: mjm@wru.org (Michael Masterson) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 18:54:43 CDT Subject: JP-7 Fuel >>Someone actually threw a match into gasoline and the match went out??? >>That gives me the shivers! >It is dead simple - liquid gasoline does *not* burn. Only the vapor burns. >If you get the match through the vapor quickly so that the flame does not >have time ot ignite the vapor, it will go out. You need a good mix of >oxygen and gas vapor for it to ignite, and there is a small mixing region >where this is the case over a puddle of gas. Yes, but the difference, at least according to one of the exerpts from one of Brian Shul's books, is that the flashpoint on JP-7 is so high that a quick thinking maintence man used JP-7 to put out a gasoline fire, after the gas from one of the start carts sloshed out and caught fire, the guy reportedly took his broom and started sweeping JP-7 over the burning gasoline, extinguishing the flames. - -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Michael Masterson mjm@wru.org - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAy76tO8AAAEEANjurMDOdSXX58GTY/u5VMbI/TNXY0BX/qw6flunyvDfJy7y OEq4SaAV0uqb83ONuslOuKz4BmMUTqF/kmC2I6NSYB4/8xYR22fv2dVN0tZgUN7H pn+aj6SV5MxQ+aHCfx+ekh+S8dxhA7jPhExy67fTGDHhuwNpUvfPEuc6RPzhAAUR tB9NaWNoYWVsIE1hc3RlcnNvbiA8bWptQHdydS5vcmc+ =fxM1 - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 17:55:47 EST Subject: Re[5]: These wretched loudmouths and their UFOs I work at deHavilland. Here's what I found out. The military developed the aircraft as a battlefield reconnaissance plane for the DEA. The are called the Dragfire and include several really cool inovations. They have FLIR, pulse radar, and a very advanced laser guided optical vision system. During one demonstration, the vision system was zoomed in on a bulldozer about 2.5 miles away. When the image stabilization was turned on, they were able to read the serial number off of the fuel filter as the bulldozer moved and the picture remained still. In another demonstration, 20 troops were sent out into the dense bush and the aircraft located all of them in 10 minutes. The pulse radar can pick up 4x4 sheet of plywood floating in the water in 10 ft seas at several miles. Most of the equipment is lowered from the fuselage of the aircraft in flight to allow for landing clearance. The aircraft includes chaff and flare despensers, exhaust diffusers, and can remain airborne for 10 hours with the long range tanks installed. The military ordered 6 at $40 million a pop. They choose the Dash 7 because it has execellent STOL performance, a fairly stable platform, and is relatively inexpensive. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re[4]: These wretched loudmouths and their UFOs Author: GENERALLYWEIRD Distribution List at unix.po Date: 13/07/95 08:39 Au contrair, mon friere - The DeHavilland (of Canada) DASH-7 is a modified platform for the Drug Enforcement Agency. Terry C. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: These wretched loudmouths and their UFOs Author: GENERALLYWEIRD Distribution List at smtp Date: 13/7/1995 12:56 AM > The local paper has a photo of a DeHavilland DASH-7, "a sophisticated > reconnaissance aircraft that eventually will be based at Howard Air Base, > Panama." Do any skunkers have more information on this platform? The USAF's budget must be pretty tight if they're using commuter aircraft for recon. Intereting, tho'. *********************************************************************** * Gordon R. Campbell * Tongue of toad, newt so * * Mowat Woods Graphics * greeny, turn this * * P.O. Box 1902 * dude into zucchini. * * Kingston, ON, Canada K7L 5J7 ************************************ * E-mail: campbelg@limestone.kosone.com * <- Finger for current * * or milo@uptowne.com * PGP Key * *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "Fowler, Robert A. (SysAdmin)" Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 23:50:00 P Subject: RE: JP-7 fuel Ah, I'm glad you came to my rescue and provided more details that I haven't seen in the books! After reading something about the tanks having some sort of sealer in the tanks, I mistakenly assumed the sealer was injected in just the places where the metal panels meet each other. And I thought they had to inject the stuff from the inside of the tanks. I had no idea they had to smear the stuff all over the inside surfaces! Someone actually threw a match into gasoline and the match went out??? That gives me the shivers! SLMR 2.1a You can have your SR in any color as long as it's black! This is a classic "arctic" joke. I lived in Idaho & Montana mountains as a kid. Since only gas vapor burns and at low temps (Usual we did this on really cold winter nights of < -15(F) or for the scientifically correct < -26c.) gas won't vaporize it is nearly impossible to get gas to light. Great way to impress you lowland/California relatives who come to visit. ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #354 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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