From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #359 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 19 July 1995 Volume 05 : Number 359 In this issue: Electric Aircraft was Re:Skunk Works Digest V5 #356 A Stealthy Disclosure Re: A Stealthy Disclosure Time for Debate! Stealthy Disclosure Re: Stealthy Disclosure re: Skunkstock (July 22) Re: Stealthy Disclosure Is this the SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hoyt@isus.stat.com Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 19:08:00 GMT Subject: Electric Aircraft was Re:Skunk Works Digest V5 #356 NEW TECHNOLOGIES: Using Extropy to leverage Entropy ..... The cleanest source of energy from hydrogen I`ve seen is fuel cells. Unforunately, the power generated is not viable for A/C propulsion. I have an electric helicopter design (U.S. Pat 4,702,437) which, although currently would use a shaft driven alternator, is envisioned to use a ~100KW fuel cell as the primary energy source. The free wheeling rotor is driven by two 75HP electric trans sonic cross-flow fans near the blade tips. Quite efficient, and the gyroscopic moment cancels coning. From what I have read, fuel cells will be practical in the near future for this use. With 8 HP per pound electric motors, it will be practical for aircraft. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Federal jurisdiction over citizens is limited to disputes between a state and a citizen of another state, citizens of different states. Article III, section 2 USC. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. --Arthur C. Clarke - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?" The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?" The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?" The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A slipping sear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit. -- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ When you come to a fork in the road, take it. -- Yogi Berra - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hoyt A. Stearns jr.|hoyt@isus.stat.| International Society of Unified Science| 4131 E. Cannon Dr. | .com OR | Advancing Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal | Phoenix, AZ. 85028 |fax 996 9088 | System- a unified physical theory. | voice 602 996-1717 |news.primenet.com!stat!wierius!isus!hoyt_________________| ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 09:48:55 EST Subject: A Stealthy Disclosure A STEALTHY DISCLOSURE. Amid last week's clamor over base closures and Bosnia, the Pentagon quietly dropped a bombshell: Taxpayers do not have to pay half a billion dollars a year so the United States can continue to build Stealth bombers. There is no reason to maintain the B-2 ``industrial base,'' a Pentagon report explained, because there is no such thing as a ``bomber industrial base.'' But the word came only after a key House committee approved $493 million to keep B-2 suppliers in business. In a fierce lobbying campaign, Northrop Grumman Corp., maker of the 20 existing B-2s, which cost $2 billion apiece, argued for months that it will not be possible to build more B-2s tomorrow unless taxpayers keep open the shop floors where they are built today. Lawmakers agreed. Earlier this year, another House panel voted $553 million to maintain the B-2 production line. But the new Pentagon study concludes: ``The capabilities required to produce the B-2 today are common to other military aircraft. B-2 industrial capabilities are not unique.'' The study team met with some 200 senior aerospace executives, who agreed that civilian and military aircraft industries can still make sophisticated bombers. Fourteen suppliers build the B-2's airframe; 25 firms supply electronic systems. Even the exotic technologies that render the B-2 nearly invisible to enemy radar are found on another Air Force jet, the new F-22 fighter. The Pentagon's estimate of what 20 more B-2s will cost: $19 billion. ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@arn.net (Rick Pavek) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:28:27 -0500 Subject: Re: A Stealthy Disclosure +A STEALTHY DISCLOSURE. Amid last week's clamor over base closures and +Bosnia, the Pentagon quietly dropped a bombshell: Taxpayers do not +have to pay half a billion dollars a year so the United States can +continue to build Stealth bombers. There is no reason to maintain the +B-2 ``industrial base,'' a Pentagon report explained, because there +is no such thing as a ``bomber industrial base.'' But the word came +only after a key House committee approved $493 million to keep B-2 +suppliers in business. Ah... they had some purpose here, to tell us this, but that's not exactly stating it correctly. True, what it said was correct. However... semantics abound in this document. What they _don't_ say is that the 'shop floor technology' that is specific to the B2 is unique to the B2. Tooling (the real reason the B2 costs so dammuch), people, processes, all these and more would have to be rebuilt if they discontinued and tried to restart the lines. IF they don't destroy the tooling, as is the current DOD mandated process, then they'd save lots of money. But the infrastructure to make it all happen would be dismantled and it would take years to ramp back up. If they destroy the tooling like the DOD has mandated before... it would be as if they were redeveloping the beast from scratch. The policy is that they destroy all tooling, supplies specific to the program, and paper. I don't address the point that, IMHO, in spite of how sexy the B2 is, or how well it works, or who likes it, or who works in who's district... I think it's too damn expensive and we shouldn't build it. This is my perspective as a taxpayer, not as an airplane lover (if that were the case I'd say 'More, more, hang the cost!!' ;) What they propose here, in this document... is ludicrous. Rick Pavek kuryakin@arn.net ------------------------------ From: wizard@sccsi.com (John F. Regus) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:46:14 -0500 Subject: Time for Debate! With the realities of downsizing the defense budget looming, I want to open the floor for debate on whether it is better to save the B-2 or the F-22 programs and where funding should be shifted. Therefore the question is: With x amount of dollars available for the B-2 and F-22 programs, which program should receive the greater share of the available funding. ************************************************************************* * STRATACOM WORLDNET * internet: wizard@sccsi.com | SYS/370/390 * internet: STRATACOM_WORLDNET@msn.com | Systems Software Engineering * voice: 713-960-0045 | Data and Tele-Communications * fax/data:713-960-0015 | * WUI: REGUSHOU | John F. Regus, Consultant ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: Tim Ottinger Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 15:45:29 CDT Subject: Stealthy Disclosure :IF they don't destroy the tooling, as is the current DOD mandated process, :then they'd save lots of money. This is very perceptive. It shows that you understand the assembly process pretty well. :I don't address the point that, IMHO, in spite of how sexy the B2 is, :or how well it works, or who likes it, or who works in who's district... :I think it's too damn expensive and we shouldn't build it. This is :my perspective as a taxpayer, not as an airplane lover (if that were the :case I'd say 'More, more, hang the cost!!' ;) If you want to ditch an arms program, but you want to look as if you're in favor of it, you can. All you have to do is order it in severly limited quantity and complain in a year about the per-seat cost. You can pull this trick with rifles, bullets, night vision gear, tanks, aircraft, or whatever. Cost in aircraft is almost entirely a matter of scale and research. If you research to a unique set of specifications, and then build a single airframe, it costs many billions. If you build a few hundred, it's dead cheap. If we order 4000 B2s, it would be the cheapest plane in the inventory, maybe in US history. - -- Tim - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | You aren't an expert until you've done the work. | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Tim Ottinger tottinge@csci.csc.com (217)351-8508x2420 | | CSC CIS Champaign, IL - The Silicon Prairie " -7420(fax) | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Tim Ottinger Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 18:54:36 CDT Subject: Re: Stealthy Disclosure :Having worked for Boeing for seven years... I should hope so. Cool. Then you can refute or support my claims in this post! :Weeellll... not _that_ cheap. The cost of a single 'seat' for a program :is (the cost of each aircraft's components/labor/overhead) * (# of :airframes) * (the entire developmental cost) divided by the number of :airframes. I was clearly exaggerating the 4000 B2s (I'll sincerely hope we NEVER need anything on the order of 4000 first-strike bombers!). But the point behind it is still valid. :Ergo, there would never be an airplane that cost less than the :(the cost of each aircraft's components/labor/overhead) part plus the :fraction of the developmental costs. :What you do with larger orders is reduce the equivalent fraction of the :overhead/development. (Bill Nye impersonation:) Consider the Following Labor costs are not constant. They tend to decrease in an assembly line. 20 planes seems just barely enough to consider _not_ having your best craftsmen hand-tooling parts and throwing the bad attempts away. Once you have the assembly line moving, the skill levels of the workers change and costs drop (unless you are on T&M ;-) Component cost is not a constant. If I order a unique short-order run of hammers or toilet seats, you've seen what happens. If I order a lot, then my suppliers (and thier suppliers) cut better deals. This has rather a bit to do with my first point. So: you order a lot of planes, the component costs drop, the labor costs drop, and the research cost is spread across many more seats. Sadly, overhead cost goes up a bit. :-( The equation holds, the variables just change a bit. So you spend more for the fleet, but less for the plane. You talk about what a great deal it is over the short-run planes, and you get re-elected. Maybe that's oversimplified also. :I remember something about the F-22 or F-15... one of them anyway. :The USAF wanted so many. Congress said: That's too expensive, order fewer. :With the way the developmental costs worked out... buying fewer actually :cost more than it would have (total project costs) than they would have spent :had they purchased the original amount. Wouldn't it be great to walk into the congressional hearing armed with the total cost vs. per-seat breakdown and show them the price breaks? I can hear the banter "buy 70 and get seven free!". PS: On costing airframes, my own tagline tells me that I'm not an expert. I don't do it for a living. - -- Tim - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | You aren't an expert until you've done the work. | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Tim Ottinger tottinge@csci.csc.com (217)351-8508x2420 | | CSC CIS Champaign, IL - The Silicon Prairie " -7420(fax) | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 17:33:08 PDT Subject: re: Skunkstock (July 22) [Sorry, I was in Mexico City last week on business.] What's the agenda for Skunkstock (Saturday July 22 at the "Wing and a Prayer" near Edwards AFB) ?? We could hit a few places out in the Mojave desert (it's going to be a bit warm) such as Lockheed's radar cross section (RCS) range near Helendale. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@arn.net (Rick Pavek) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 20:27:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Stealthy Disclosure +:Having worked for Boeing for seven years... I should hope so. +Cool. Then you can refute or support my claims in this post! They were pretty good.. we didn't discuss numbers (only the contractors and the Congress know anything that resembles a breakdown)... but the points you made are good. From five planes to three hundred you'd get a really big drop in price per plane. After that... the benefit slows a lot. Price between 1000 and 10,000 wouldn't be much different. (not that that would ever happen again... :) Illya ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 19:53:05 PDT Subject: Is this the SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft? [note: this message includes a uuencoded GIF picture at the end.] For some time, I have been trying to uncover information on the classified aircraft code-named SENIOR CITIZEN (Program Element 0401316F). Some people have claimed that SENIOR CITIZEN is a supposed hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft, also known as "Aurora". On August 19, 1994 I posted the following on the Internet: - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- There has been a lot of speculation about the secret U.S. Air Force aircraft code-named SENIOR CITIZEN. Some people have stated that this code-name refers to a hypersonic SR-71 follow-on ("Aurora") while others have stated that it refers to the small bat-like Stealth aircraft that Steve Douglass photographed in New Mexico (sometimes referred to as the "TR-3A"). Based on a Department of Defense document that I just received, I will reveal what the SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft really is. SENIOR CITIZEN is an advanced transport aircraft!! According to Department of Defense document DoD7045.7-H, "FYDP Program Structure", October 1993, SENIOR CITIZEN (Program Element 0401316F) is a tactical airlift aircraft. It might be a STOL (Short Take-off and Landing) aircraft, because there have been several advanced STOL aircraft funded under program category 04013xxx. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The picture is of a turbofan powered, low-observable ('Stealth') V/STOL advanced tactical transport design, and is taken from the technical paper "Technology and design considerations for an advanced theater transport", 1990, by Richard Wible, Technology Exploitation Directorate, Wright-Patterson AFB. This may be similar or very close to Program Element 0401316F, SENIOR CITIZEN. In the same GIF is a picture of a Boeing "Advanced Theater Transport" aircraft design, provided by Rick Pavek (kuryakin@arn.net). Based on what I know, I believe the following for the SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft: * SENIOR CITIZEN is a low-observable, V/STOL turbofan powered aircraft. It is not designed to carry heavy cargo, like tanks, which a C-5 can carry, but for troops (probably Special Operations Forces) and their equipment. * The aircraft is probably manufactured by Boeing. It should also be pointed out that Boeing has a fairly elaborate radar cross section (RCS) range, that would be needed to test the Stealth characteristics of the design. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html Here it is -- a uuencoded GIF sketch of ?? 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