From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #368 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 28 July 1995 Volume 05 : Number 368 In this issue: North American advanced X-15 studies/proposals Re: Supersonic Airliners (Re:) Re: re: RF-4C's last flight Re: Supersonic Airliners (Re:) Re: North American advanced X-15 studies/proposals Re: Mary's post help Re: North American advanced X-15 studies See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AINLEYD@bluemt.ksc.nasa.gov Date: Thu, 27 Jul 95 08:54:00 EDT Subject: North American advanced X-15 studies/proposals Anyone know how to get more information on some of the old North American advanced X-15 proposals & studies? Some of the more interesting ones included using a longer fuselage with 76 degree swept delta wings and a more powerful XLR-99 rocket engine with an extended thrust nozzle. Jay Miller also mentioned that among other versions considered were an orbital version launched as a Titan upper stage, adding 2 ventral scramjets for propulsion, and using a North American Navaho booster as a carry vehicle. In a "Quest" issue devoted to the X-15, mention was made of a North American proposal submitted to use the XB-70 as a X-15 "drop" plane. It would have launched the X-15 off a pylon carried between its twin tails much like the A-12/D-12 or the Testors SR-75/XR-7 concept. It would be interesting to see whether these ideas were not carried forward due to technical problems with these concepts or strictly due to lack of funding. Thanks, Dave A. ------------------------------ From: clarence@spooky.chinalake.navy.mil (Clarence Dent) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 07:42:19 -0800 Subject: Re: Supersonic Airliners (Re:) >From: Tim Ottinger >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 16:10:35 CDT >Subject: Re: Supersonic Airliners (Re:) > >:No. It was a pure research project with no intent to go on to >:production. There are two of the three left in museums. One at the >:Smithsonian and the other somewhere else (as he demonstrates his >:massive memory). > >Air Force Museum at Dayton, OH. Seen' em both. (nyahh) ;-) > >- -- >Tim If I'm not mistaken, I too have seen one at the Pima air museum near Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, Arizona. That was in 1980. It could have been moved since then, and it also could have only been a mockup, but it looked fine to me. That was my favorite aircraft as a kid... Clarence@spooky.chinalake.navy.mil "Jet Noise: The sound of a paycheck" ------------------------------ From: clarence@spooky.chinalake.navy.mil (Clarence Dent) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 07:51:53 -0800 Subject: Re: re: RF-4C's last flight >From: Gschaffe@mic01.redstone.army.mil >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 11:45:13 CDT >Subject: re: RF-4C's last flight > >Your F-4s will probably be converted to QF-4s. Conversion is already >underway for some of their sister aircraft from the "boneyard" (boy, Fact >do some of the people at Davis-Monthan dislike that word!). TRACOR >Flight Systems of Mojave is the contractor for droning them, so I think they do ours here as well... >they will likely overfly or skirt Edwards AFB on the way in from >Tucson and on the way out again to Tyndall AFB. > >Shed no tears. They will be well treated until the end. Most likely >they will fly for a couple more years before ending their careers in >a blaze of glory at the hands of an advanced AMRAAM, AIM-9X, Patriot Sparrow, Stinger, ... >follow-on, or a current missile which the Air Force needs to verify Navy (AF isn't using 9X yet. We're still testing it...) >that it still works right. If the [Q]F-4 gets lucky, it may outmaneuver >a dozen or so test missiles (no warheads) before one gets a solid >direct hit. We have "accidentally" flamed two or three in the last couple of months here The test missiles are supposed to miss, but pass within lethal range to save the plane (and score a "kill"). It doesn't always work that way... >We in the Targets business hate to lose good airplanes. The trashy >ones get splashed first. So keep up the maintenance, and we'll fly >them as long as we can! Too bad they have to go, but it's for a >much better cause than getting the scrap-man's axe. Underline the term "They go out in a _blaze_ of glory!" > >Best wishes. >Glenn Schaffer >Army Targets Management Office >Redstone Arsenal, AL > Thanks for the input Glenn!... Clarence@spooky.chinalake.navy.mil "Jet Noise: The sound of a paycheck" ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Supersonic Airliners (Re:) I also used to go up and stand outside the control room and watch the X-15 flights and then race down to the ramp to watch the landings I also managed to see a number of lifting body flights. I remember one flight (I'm not sure which aircraft) when I was able to see the separation and the rocket start, etc. It was one of those rare days when everything in the air was throwing a con and I could see the little F-104 chase planes cons and the bigger BUF con and the tiny test vehicle con, which was really washed out by the rocket plume. I was a summer hire here at Dryden all the time that I was in college and everyone was extraordinarily kind about making sure that I got to see all the neat stuff. I've always remembered that kindness and try to do the same for our co-ops and summer hires now. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Mary Shafer wrote: > I used to go down to the main hangar and look at all three of them. > > (I told you guys I was old....) > > Mary > > PS. They're repainting the mockup that lives on the plinth out in front > of Dryden. Right now it's a lovely primer grey. MFS ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@arn.net (Rick Pavek) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:24:50 -0500 Subject: Re: North American advanced X-15 studies/proposals I was at an AIAA meeting in Seattle a few years ago and Scott Crossfield was the speaker for that month. He had lots of good anecdotes (parking the F-100 through the hangar wall) and lots of good slides. One was a concept piece that showed an X-15C (delta) strapped inbetween three Polaris missiles arranged in a triangle. Unfortunately, I don't recall if he gave many specifics. He is a very interesting guy. Rick Pavek +Anyone know how to get more information on some of the old North American +advanced X-15 proposals & studies? Some of the more interesting ones +included using a longer fuselage with 76 degree swept delta wings and a more ------------------------------ From: Rick.Lafford@cldx.com, Johnson & Johnson Clinical Diagnostics Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:41:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Mary's post Mary wrote: > I was a summer hire here at Dryden all the time that I was in college and > everyone was extraordinarily kind about making sure that I got to see all > the neat stuff. I've always remembered that kindness and try to do the > same for our co-ops and summer hires now. and... all us little folk out here in the pea patch. Thanks for sharing Mary. Rick Rick Lafford J & J Clinical Diagnostics lafford@cnp.cldx.com ------------------------------ From: MICSBSS@mail.dme.wa.gov.au (Leslie Seow) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 08:11 WST Subject: help help Reply to: MICSBSS @ DOME (Leslie Seow) Previous From: MICSBSS @ DOME (Leslie Seow) Previous To: i@smtp{Skunk-Works-Digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu} Original to: i@smtp{Skunk-Works-Digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu} ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 18:15:32 -0700 Subject: Re: North American advanced X-15 studies >Anyone know how to get more information on some of the old North American >advanced X-15 proposals & studies? I'm very interested in these proposals as well, so I've done a little checking on them (my primary interest is the scramjet powered study). I called NAR up and asked for any available information on them. They sent me one drawing of the rocket-powered delta planform X-15 concept (in color), and one drawing of the scramjet powered version (black and white), but no information beyond that. The drawings I got were the same that have been published in Miller and elsewhere. In this situation, the only information would be what guys who were involved in the program would be willing to tell you. > Some of the more interesting ones >included using a longer fuselage with 76 degree swept delta wings and a more > >powerful XLR-99 rocket engine with an extended thrust nozzle. Jay Miller >also mentioned that among other versions considered were an orbital version >launched as a Titan upper stage, adding 2 ventral scramjets for propulsion, >and using a North American Navaho booster as a carry vehicle. I've seen a drawing of the Navaho booster concept (come to think of it, was it a Navaho?), perhaps it was in one of those old Martin Caidin books. I can't recall exactly. > In a "Quest" >issue devoted to the X-15, mention was made of a North American proposal >submitted to use the XB-70 as a X-15 "drop" plane. It would have launched >the X-15 off a pylon carried between its twin tails much like the A-12/D-12 >or the Testors SR-75/XR-7 concept. Yes, that is a fairly widely published concept. Many books on X-15 or XB-70 have the concept drawing. I saw a proposal that JH-APL made to USAF back in the early 60s to test a scramjet powered drone vehicle (to develop ramjet/scramjet technology) using the XB-70 as a booster. And JH-APL wasn't alone in that endeavor either. > It would be interesting to see whether >these ideas were not carried forward due to technical problems with these >concepts or strictly due to lack of funding. Lack of funding was the problem. Scott Crossfield has talked on TV about the new class of propulsion systems we'd now have if we had extended the X-15 program with some of the programs you've discussed here. Rick responded: >I was at an AIAA meeting in Seattle a few years ago and Scott Crossfield >was the speaker for that month. > >He had lots of good anecdotes ... > >One was a concept piece that showed an X-15C (delta) strapped inbetween >three Polaris missiles arranged in a triangle. > >Unfortunately, I don't recall if he gave many specifics. A drawing of that concept is in an out-of-print book which every X-15 buff needs to get his/her hands on. The name of the book is something like "Ninety Seconds To Space" and it was written by Jules Bergman I think. It's not impossible to find as I ran across a copy in a used bookstore, not that long ago. I've also seen it for sale on at least one used book catalog since then, so it is around. The same book has a neat drawing of the XB-70SS with an X-20-like orbiter hung underneath. The drawing is different from the Steve Pace published XB-70SS drawing in his fine XB-70 book. The drawing in Bergman's book looks like it was from earlier in the idea definition stage, but it's still pretty cool! I love seeing high mach aircraft proposals, no matter how old!!!! Larry ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #368 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).