From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #402 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 30 August 1995 Volume 05 : Number 402 In this issue: U2 Crash U2 crashes at RAF Fairford. FW: U2 crashes at RAF Fairford. U2 Crash in UK U2 Crash in UK U-2 down in UK - pilot dies U2 Crash in UK Re: U2 Crash in UK Re: Broken Arrow Re: Ooze #6 1/3 Re: Request for help on SKUNK WORKS Re: aargh! Re: Request for help on SKUNK WORKS Re: Ooze #6 1/3 (fwd) Re: Request for help on SKUNK WORKS We're not the only ones Big Planes and Big Banks... Re: Broken Arrow F20 Re: We're not the only ones See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk (Andy Cobley) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 09:46:36 BST Subject: U2 Crash Just heard on the morning TV news a U2 has crashed on take off at RAF Fairford, Gloucestershire, UK. No details as yet except there was an implication the pilot ejected and was taken to hospital near by. Andy C Andy Cobley acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk http://alpha.mic.dundee.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: Stuart McMurtrie Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 11:12:00 PDT Subject: U2 crashes at RAF Fairford. a U2 has crashed at Royal Air Force Fairford this morning (29 August 1995). Engine failure on take-off. Tried to get it back to the field, wingtip hit, ground looped. Pilot ejected but is seriously injured. Here's hoping he's OK. SJMc. smcmurtrie@uk.b-r.com ------------------------------ From: Stuart McMurtrie Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 11:30:00 PDT Subject: FW: U2 crashes at RAF Fairford. a U2 has crashed at Royal Air Force Fairford this morning (29 August 1995). Engine failure on take-off. Tried to get it back to the field, wingtip hit, ground looped. Pilot ejected but is seriously injured. Here's hoping he's OK. SJMc. smcmurtrie@uk.b-r.com ------------------------------ From: adrian mann Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:22:18 +0000 Subject: U2 Crash in UK News: Just heard 2 reports this morning of a U2 Crash in England. The reports are this: That a U2, of the 9th Reconnaisance wing, crashed at RAF Fairford. The pilot is beleived to have ejected, and is injured but alive. An eyewitness said that the aircraft circled the field, and as it was landing, th left wingtip touched the ground, followed by a large explosion and what appeared to be the chute from the ejecting pilot. Another eyewitness heard the aircrafts engine stop moments befor landing. No further details at this time, but I will post as soon as I know more. Adrian Mann, UK. Adrian Mann ------------------------------ From: adrian mann Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:11:59 +0000 Subject: U2 Crash in UK Update: 1 O'clock news on BBC radio 4 carried the following: A U2 spyplane belonging to the USAF 9th Reconnaisance Wing has crashed at RAF Fairford in Gloucestershire. The aircraft, one of 3 currently operating from Britain, took off early this morning, but was obviously in serious difficulty, and then circled the base attempting to land. An Eyewitness at a local garage said that the aircraft came down on the runway, when the left wingtip hit the ground, the aircraft slid along, veered to the left and crashed through the perimeter fence, coming to rest in a field where it exploded. The pilot was seen to eject shortly before landing, and was taken to hospital in Swindon, where he later died from his injuries. The crash site has now been cordoned off, and the Base Commander (apparantly Ian Pollit (sic) has immediately initiated a board of inquiry to find the cause of the crash. RAF Fairford was mothballed a few years ago, but is occasionally used for joint NATO/USAF activities. Adrian Mann ------------------------------ From: David Windle Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:04:02 Subject: U-2 down in UK - pilot dies Bad news I'm afraid..I just had a call to tell me that a U-2 based at Fairford in Gloucestershire UK crashed on take off. An eyewitness reported seeing the a/c's left wing dragging along the ground, the plane veered off the runway towards a fence-the pilot ejected..the a/c became engulfed in flames. The pilot was taken to hospital but later died. The a/c was one of 3 based at Fairford conducting recon. missions over Bosnia. This is the latest loss for US recon. following two Tier II Predator UAVs. The Predators were part of the 5 a/c group sent to Gjader (GUY-DAR) in Albania. I have no information as to whether it is, in fact a U-2 or TR-1 that's down.I'll find out later no doubt..perhaps someone else knows. Sorry to be the bearer of sad news. D ------------------------------ From: adrian mann Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:55:52 +0000 Subject: U2 Crash in UK Update to the U2 crash story: It has just been reported on BBC Radio 4 that the pilot of the U" which crashed at RAF Fairford has since died in Hospital. The U2 was apparently undertaking a mission over Bosnia. Adrian. Adrian Mann ------------------------------ From: Chris Beaugrand <3ceb1@qlink.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: U2 Crash in UK Check out WWW.YAHOO.COM, they carry Reuters News stories. They ahve a full writeup in the international (I think) section. ============================================================== Chris Beaugrand Undergraduate Geography Student Queen's University Kingston, Ontario, Canada 3ceb1@qlink.queensu.ca Chris@ams.queensu.ca http://cspo.queensu.ca:8080/~beaugrc Check out the WWW - -------------------------------------------------------------- Live Smart. Think for Yourself. Transform the Future. ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Broken Arrow Dean W. Smeaton wrote: >We all probably know what the code words 'Broken Arrow' mean- a nuke >'incident'. If Uncle Sam has code words for a nuke incident, do they have >similar codes words for biological and chemical incidents, as well as code >words to describe the magnitude of the incident?. >If anyone knows these designations, or can suggest where to conduct >research, I'd appreciate your input. I don't know about the equivalent code words for incidents and accidents involving biological and/or chemical weapons/materials, but here is a description of the 4 categories/classes of incidents/accidents concerning nuclear weapons/materials/facilities (or components of such): 'Dull Sword' - ------------ Incident that (could) lead to uncontrolled reactions of nuclear material with danger for life, health or materials. 'Faded Giant' - ------------- Uncontrolled chain-reaction in nuclear-reactor with damage of reactor-core or contamination of atmosphere or environment. 'Bent Spear' - ------------ Incident with (component of) nuclear weapon leading to: * heavy damage of weapon, remanufacture, replacement or new (AEC/NRC/DNA) approving necessary; * immediate counter-action necessary for security reasons; * possibility of negative publicity or loss of secrecy; * possibility of (partial) activation of nuclear weapon; * possibility of accident, which have to be told to the IAEA; 'Broken Arrow' - -------------- Accident or incident with (component of) nuclear weapon like: * nuclear explosion; * conventional explosion or burning of weapon; * radiological contamination; * hijacking, thievery or loss of weapon or components; * real or possible danger for people; There have been at least 32 reported 'Broken Arrow' incidents over the past 50 years, and several others are probably still classified. I suspect that even more incidents, belonging to the other categories have also taken place. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Ooze #6 1/3 Please keep your spam off skunk-works. It's waaay off the charter for the list. kean skunk-works-owner@mail.orst.edu Kean Stump Information Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. (503)-737-4740 ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Request for help on SKUNK WORKS Larry wrote: >Correct the pictures yes, but be careful about the rest. I agree that the text (like the number of GAR-9 missiles fired, and his opinion about the XB-70 and the Operation 'El Dorado Canyon' should not be changed in any way, but the twin-engined F-20 and some of the 1950's dates should be corrected. >But, the fact is, that at the time, one of the main reasons the F-20 did >so poorly in export sales is that all the other governments wanted F-16's, >because the U.S. was buying F-16's too, and not F-20's. That 'the F-20 did so poorly in exports sales' is the understatement of the week. :) >It's hard to argue against that, and that is basically what foreign >governments asked, "If the F-20 is so good, why doesn't USAF buy them?" I am not sure, if this is such a valid argument. The F-20 'Tigershark' (ex F-5G) was specifically developed for the export market, to replace older F-5A/B 'Freedom Fighter' and F-5E/F 'Tiger II' in foreign services. Those aircraft were also not (widely) used by the US military, as wasn't the F-104 'Starfighter', but all became export hits. Some countries, like Taiwan, who really wanted the F-20, couldn't get it because of export restrictions (concerning the engine or avionics, I guess). They ultimately received this technology anyway, which is now featured by Taiwan's IDF. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: aargh! On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 quagga@world.std.com wrote: > got in my mailbox today really took the cake. if someone has the > time to moderate this list and even make subscribers pass a skunk Working on the moderation et al. Tied up in upgrading the mailing list software... kean Kean Stump Information Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. (503)-737-4740 ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:44:46 -0700 Subject: Re: Request for help on SKUNK WORKS >That 'the F-20 did so poorly in exports sales' is the understatement of the >week. :) Yes, it is a bit of an understatement isn't it. :) It's sounds like the way corporations word things doesn't it! I'm becoming too restrained perhaps. I also liked the F-20. >>It's hard to argue against that, and that is basically what foreign >>governments asked, "If the F-20 is so good, why doesn't USAF buy them?" >I am not sure, if this is such a valid argument. The F-20 'Tigershark' (ex >F-5G) was specifically developed for the export market, to replace older >F-5A/B 'Freedom Fighter' and F-5E/F 'Tiger II' in foreign services. Those >aircraft were also not (widely) used by the US military, as wasn't the F-104 >'Starfighter', but all became export hits. Yes, good points. But at the time, GD was was trying to export the F-16 too. I recall that the foreign air forces and governments were being told by GD that not only could they fly the same fighter that the USAF was ordering in strength (the F-16) but that GD would help setup a manufacturing operation in the country in question, which they did in many cases. So it was the best of both worlds for them. You can see why the poor F-20 had such a difficult time (another understatement - OK IMPOSSIBLE! time). :) Larry ------------------------------ From: Kean Stump Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Ooze #6 1/3 (fwd) Looks like "DrBubonic" was set up. Probably alien ufo commando assassins... kean Kean Stump Information Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. (503)-737-4740 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:26:27 -0400 From: DrBubonic@aol.com To: kean@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Re: Ooze #6 1/3 Sorry. Someone sent me those e-mail lists to my sub-list. I am double checking my subscriber list to remove any list i find- I have a few thousand names and these errors pop up when i am not vigilant. This is the 6th issue, and the first time this problem has come up. you'll never hear from me again - -matt ------------------------------ From: wizard@fs1.houston.sccsi.com (John F. Regus) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:37:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Request for help on SKUNK WORKS > >>But, the fact is, that at the time, one of the main reasons the F-20 did >>so poorly in export sales is that all the other governments wanted F-16's, >>because the U.S. was buying F-16's too, and not F-20's. > >That 'the F-20 did so poorly in exports sales' is the understatement of the >week. :) > >>It's hard to argue against that, and that is basically what foreign >>governments asked, "If the F-20 is so good, why doesn't USAF buy them?" > >I am not sure, if this is such a valid argument. The F-20 'Tigershark' (ex >F-5G) was specifically developed for the export market, to replace older >F-5A/B 'Freedom Fighter' and F-5E/F 'Tiger II' in foreign services. Northrop spent a lot of its own money doing R&D on the F-20. The F-20 was going to be offered to Air Force Reserve Units and ANG units in lieu of the F-16 which was considered too expensive. However, GD put together a financial plan which made the F-16 less costly than the F-20. Afterwards, Northrop tried to get the F-20 licensed for export, however, GD put together attractive financial packages for foreign purchasers that shot the F-20 down. My recollection is that Northrop said it would never spend any of its own money to develop another aircraft. Sidebar: To extend the life of the F-16, there was a plan to fit the F-16 with delta wings.... Whatever happened to this idea? Northrop lurkers comments appreciated. ************************************************************************* * STRATACOM WORLDNET * internet: wizard@sccsi.com | SYS/370/390 * internet: STRATACOM_WORLDNET@msn.com | Systems Software Engineering * voice: 713-960-0045 | Data and Tele-Communications * fax/data:713-960-0015 | * WUI: REGUSHOU | John F. Regus, Consultant ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: kean@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 14:26:07 MDT Subject: We're not the only ones Just dipped into sci.astro for the first time in a while, and there's a lot of Weekly World News kind of postings there also. Who let these people out? kean Kean Stump Information Services kean@ucs.orst.edu Oregon State University OSU doesn't pay me to have official opinions. (503)-737-4740 ------------------------------ From: Corey Lawson Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big Planes and Big Banks... ...well, having witnessed a 747 do some pretty cool stuff, like a knife-edge pass, at the Abbotsford Airshow in 1985 or so (the Air Canada plane bedecked in Expo86 stuff), I don't think it matters much on the plane as to how much its loaded down... I would argue that part of the flight test routine involves all sorts of near-aerobatic manouevers not allowed in the operational manuals for the planes... - -------------------------------+--------------------------------------------- Corey Lawson + Daddy lets me drive slowly around the UW Bothell Computer Facilities + driveway on Tuesdays... but only on Tuesdays csl@u.washington.edu + -the Rainman 206.685.5209 + - -------------------------------+--------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 00:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Broken Arrow For everyone interested in this topic, here are some resources: The code word definitions and a lot of information concerning nuclear weapons incidents and accidents can be found in: Title: The Greenpeace Book of the Nuclear Age Author: John May Publisher: ? Year: 1989 (I only have the German version, published by Knaur, 1989) Technical data, photos, facts (including the 32 'Broken Arrow' incidents) can be found in the standard reference: Title: U.S. Nuclear Weapons Author: Chuck Hansen Publisher: ? I don't have it yet, but only because I heard that a new, extended edition will be coming out soon, which I want to get. Another good reference are the following books in the 'Nuclear Weapons Databook' series: * Nuclear Weapons Databook, Volume I: Title: U.S. Nuclear Forces and Capabilities Author: Thomas B. Cochran, William M. Arkin, and Milton M. Hoenig Published: Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc. Published: Ballinger Publishing Company, Cambridge, MA Year: 1984 ISBN: 0-88410-172-X (v. 1) ISBN: 0-88410-173-8 (v. 1, PB) * Nuclear Weapons Databook, Volume IV: Title: Soviet Nuclear Weapons Author: Thomas B. Cochran, William M. Arkin, Robert S. Norris, and Jeffrey I. Sands Published: Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc. Year: 1989 ISBN: 0-88730-048-0 (CL) ISBN: 0-88730-049-9 (PB) Volume II, III, V, VI, VII, VIII and possibly otheres deal with: * U.S. Nuclear Weapons Production Complex * Other Foreign Nuclear Weapons * Environment, Health, and Safety * Command and Control of Nuclear Weapons and Nuclear Strategy * Arms Control * The History of Nuclear Weapons I don't have any of the latter, and I am not sure if they were ever printed, and, if so, in which order. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: BilBK@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 00:33:17 -0400 Subject: F20 One caution foreign gov'ts had about buying the F20 wasn't necesarily "was it good enough for the USAF" but how long available and how expensive would spare parts be since the USAF didn't purchase the aircraft. Re: F16 - it was market towards NATO but in order to sell it, GD had to bring NATO countries as production partners in some phase of the aircraft. I worked at Link Flight Simulation on the F16 simulators. We were mandated by contract to use Nord computers from Norske Data (Norway). Bill Kunce ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: We're not the only ones Once upon a time kean@gaia.ucs.orst.edu shaped the electrons to say... >Just dipped into sci.astro for the first time in a while, >and there's a lot of Weekly World News kind of postings there >also. Who let these people out? It can happen to most lists. Some lists allow anyone to send mail - they are the most vulnerable. Other lists only allow members to send mail - better. And some are moderated so that every message needs approval - tightest, but it slows down exchanges. The lists I run are in the second catagory - but anyone can subscribe. So someone could subscribe the skunkworks list address to my list(s) and you would all see the mail that went out to my lists. Of course, I see a message from each subscribe - obvious fakes I delete. If it isn't now (I don't think it is) making the list accept only list member mail could help. If it already is, then the only other step is active moderation - a drastic step I'm not personally in favor of. - -- megazone@world.std.com 510-735-8583 MegaZone's Waste Of Time Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the body. ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #402 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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