From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #414 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 9 September 1995 Volume 05 : Number 414 In this issue: Re: Mach 8.5 ... Re: Aviation questions Re: Aviation questions 'First Lady' gunship retires at Duke Field the weapons debate Military SIte, List and Server Info Tier II Plus re: Military SIte, List and Server Info Re: 1948 Crash Re: 'First Lady' gunship retires at Duke Field See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 01:15:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Mach 8.5 ... Joe Pyrdek writes: >Seeing that quick "Mach 8.5" post just got me to thinking in >a non-traditional mode. Several years back there was a program, >I believe, that had a small gliding reentry type vehicle undergoing >some tests. In fact, as I recall it the opening footage of the >old TV show "The Six Million Dollar Man" had video of a crash while >landing of this craft. Yes, that film was actual footage of NASA pilot Bruce Peterson's heroic attempt to land the M2-F2 lifting body on May 10, 1967, after experiencing lateral (roll) stability problems during his descent, and a rescue helicopter poorly positioned right smack in front of him on his approach path. He survived the landing with injuries. So did the M2-F2 which flew again with an added vertical fin in the center, to fix the lateral stability problem, and redesignated M2-F3. >Now most people that I was in contact with thought this was preliminary >research for what was to eventually become the STS (Space Shuttle) >system glider. Yes, the lifting body research is always quoted as an important precursor to Shuttle, but it was really intended to study the low speed landing characteristics of hypersonic reentry vehicles. USAF/NASA had already studied the hypersonic performance of these shapes with rocket boosted subscale vehicles that they boosted to very high hypersonic Mach numbers. The ASSET and PRIME (X-23A) programs were some of the programs that flew hypersonic flight tests, quite successfully I might add. NASA and the USAF had their own studies going on. > BUT, I wonder, why could a small craft such as this >be designed as a single person high speed, HIGH altitude, not be >included on a classified shuttle launch. > >If this were possible could not the vehicle be capable of one or two >day flights, under manual/auto control with an eventual small >retro rocket motor (as was used on Apollo capsules) and attitude >control systems to return it to earth. This might be either manned >or unmanned. Unmanned would eliminate life support needs and allow >longer duration flights and/or more equipment to be carried. Manned >might allow a better "feel" for what is being seen. > >To carry it out one step deeper into speculation, would a craft like >this not only reenter at Mach 8.5 (or similar speeds) but probably >land at some pretty well secured well out of the way "non-existant" >base? Has any unusual activity ever been noted around these bases >in Nevada a day or two or three after some shuttle missions? Yes, exactly! ... Look out James Bond! You're not the first to think of this! The USAF was quite intrigued by this idea as well, back in the early 80's. There are two sources that I can quote: 1. AW&ST, March 26, 1984 - DARPA Studying Manned Space Cruiser; pgs 20-21 2. Spaceplane Examination SRI International Final Report for Period 30 July 1981 - 30 June 1982 SRI project No. ESU-3449 Contract No. F0470-81-K-0001 Prepared for: Air Force Space Division (AFSC) Los Angeles Air Force Station Los Angeles, California 9009 A few goodies from this report: "The spaceplane airframe subsystem and aerodynamics are based on the IRBM "SWERVE" reentry vehicle geometry developed by Sandia National Labratory". As we now know, SWERVE actually flew at up to Mach 14 from the Kauai Test Facility in Hawaii. See: AW&ST; August 6, 1990; pg. 25 - "Vehicle Used In Nuclear Weapon Program Offered As Advanced Hypersonic Testbed". This study was for a manned SWERVE! It supported one man, in a pressure suit, under a bubble canopy, in a large SWERVE. Essentially a manned ballistic missile reentry vehicle! The plan was to group 7-8 of these vehicles in a Space Shuttle bay! The vehicle would support one man in orbit for up to a day. They were considering caching a stock of these vehicles in orbit as well, for future use, via Space Shuttle. The cone-shaped reentry vehicle body contained the following sections: An 8 cubic ft. payload bay at the very front, followed by an electronics bay for Nav and Guidance systems (ie: radar), followed by propellant tanks (Oxy=Nitrogen Tetroxide; Fuel= Monomethyl Hydrazine), the cockpit with bubble canopy towards the base of the cone, the propulsion system is composed of a ring of small 'plug cluster' engines around the base circumference of the vehicle. There are also appropriately placed pitch, yaw, and roll nozzles on the vehicle (cone tip, and base). Additionally there is a 4 cubic foot payload bay in the middle of the base (inside the ring of engines). The vehicle is unpressurized. An advanced space suit is required. Reentry is accomplished roughly as follows: The onboard computer aids in thruster firing to start reentry. As the vehicle reenters the atmosphere, a thermal shell and cooling system protects the vehicle and its passenger. Once Mach 1 is attained, a small braking chute is deployed. Then at about 25,000 ft., a parafoil is deployed, and the astronaut steers the vehicle via the parafoil's risers. Remaining thruster propellants can be used as well. Buck Rogers has landed! Larry ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 12:20:58 +0200 Subject: Re: Aviation questions >>>>> "MegaZone" == MegaZone writes: MegaZone> Now we all know trhe F-111B is the cancelled naval version MegaZone> and the F-14 was developed to fill the same role. MegaZone> And the Phoenix and associated systems evolved from the MegaZone> AIM-47 carried by the Lockheed (<- connection to list) YF-12 MegaZone> Blackbird. Which in turn we developed from the systems MegaZone> developed for the cancelled F-108 Rapier. MegaZone> Where did you get the nutty idea the B-1B carried air to air MegaZone> weapons? From the pentagon. Somebody had an idea to load up the B1 to the hilt with Phoenix missiles and use the a/c as an watch-dog for an US CVBG. With an time-on-station in the neighbourhood of 5 Hr it would be enough to station 3-4 b1's in Northwest canada to provide an CVBG with a very heavy umbrella of phoenix missiles. The air-force unfortunately only have 85 B1 on roster so. They could of course choose a mix of weapons (SRAM, Harpoon missiles and so on.) - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund I | sp2stes1@ida.his.se I | I _____/0\_____ I ____________O(.)O___________ H\"ogskolan i Sk\"ovde, Sverige I I-+-I O I-+-I I I Viggen with two Rb04 - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 10:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Aviation questions Methinks a certain person on the list has a lot of rice to eat... ;-) See ya! regards, BaDge ------------------------------ From: BilBK@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 13:13:20 -0400 Subject: 'First Lady' gunship retires at Duke Field Not skunky but definetly Lockheed. Kudos to one of the best aircrraft ever built. From the Air Force News Service: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 'First Lady' gunship retires at Duke Field DUKE FIELD, Fla. (AFNS) -- Air Force reservists here will commemorate the end of an era Sept. 10 when they retire the first C-130 aircraft to come off a production line. The aircraft, tail number 53-3129, went into production at the Lockheed Aircraft Co. in Marietta, Ga., in 1953 and was the original prototype of what was to become a long line of C-130 Hercules aircraft designed and built by Lockheed. The aircraft, affectionately dubbed "The First Lady," is one of five AC-130A gunship aircraft that will retire during an official ceremony. While the other four aircraft will be sent to the Aerospace Marketing and Regeneration Center at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Ariz., the First Lady will not fade from view. She will go on permanent display at the Eglin Air Force Base Armament Museum, 20 miles from her home of the past two decades. The reservists who will commemorate her retirement and that of the other four gunships will also continue to remain in the spotlight. The 1,400 members of Duke Field's 919th Special Operations Wing are transitioning to a new mission of flying C- 130N/P Combat Shadow and MC-130E Combat Talon I aircraft. The primary mission of the Combat Shadow is air refueling of special operations forces helicopters, while the primary mission of the Combat Talon aircraft is infiltration, exfiltration and resupply of special operations forces. The reason for the change of mission is that the 919th SOW's gunships, all around 40 years old, have reached the age of mandatory retirement. The only other gunships in the Air Force inventory are employed by active-duty members at Hurlburt Field, Fla., which has less than 20 gunships assigned. (Courtesy AFRES News Service ) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If any of you ever get to Northwest Florida, there are two avaiation museums in the area. Pensacola Naval Air Station ( Home of the Blue Angles ) houses the Naval Aviation Museum which is one of the best displays of aircraft and history outside of the Air & Space Museum. Eglin Air Force Base ( about 50 miles east of Pensacola ) houses the Air Force Armement Museum which expounds upon the history of armament use and development. It has a moderate display of aircraft out front, one of which is an SR-71 sitting next to a B17 Flying Fortress. It's interesting to compare the two and contemplate the advancement in aeronautics. Bill Kunce ------------------------------ From: "Frank Schiffel, Jr." Date: Fri, 08 Sep 95 11:03:48 CDT Subject: the weapons debate I disagree with the ideas that the foreign technology in AAMs is that much better than ours. Obviously, no details will be forthcoming. Also, I had the impression that NUCFLASH had the intention of letting the NCA (real high pay grade types) know that there had been some sort of nuclear visual event (double pulse, etc) and that NUDET meant that the nuclear detonation had been confirmed. These were war warning type messages. As far as CBW indicators, haven't heard of any in the open literature (which doesn't mean they exist - or had not existed). Of course, there are other nuclear indicators out there. As to the B-29 crash as Fairfield Suisan, I had run across that there was a real war scare pertaining to the 1948 elections, haven't really done any research on this (I've got way to much to read anyway..). There may have been some activity accompanying this, but I haven't really dug for it. I have found an interesting text on nuclear weapons accidents that I do not have at this computer, will put a cite on it shortly. As far as a glider at high Mach, I wouldn't ride one. Besides, the U-2 is a better platform than that. Then again, I could think of a few congress types (and professors) I'd like to use as test pilots for it. regards, Frank ------------------------------ From: RHOEFELM Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 11:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Military SIte, List and Server Info Hi, I'm looking for pointers to or listings of Military, Intelligence and/or Covert/Special Operations Web sites, servers, mailing lists, etc. I already have the Official Govt Stuff from Yahoo. I am interested in US as well as non-US information (e.g., UK's SAS, SBS, FGR's GSG9). Please send e-mail to 70436.511@compuserve.com, if possible (and doesn't cost you to send an additional message), as well as this reply address. Our firewall servers here are dubious and Compuserve is much more dependable. Thanks to all, Ralph S. Hoefelmeyer rhoefelm-cos3@kaman.com or 70436.511@compuserve.com "Enjoy Nature ... From the Top of the Food Chain" ------------------------------ From: Robin Bjorklund Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tier II Plus Anyone know where I can get detailed (well, as detailed as possible) information on the Tier II+ UAV program. Specifically, I need to know the types and specs of the electro-optical, infra-red, and synthetic-apeture radar payloads. Also, any information sources on wideband satellite and line-of-sight data link communication would be helpful. Why, you ask? I am designing a tier II+ type aircraft (same specifications for altitude and loiter time) for a design class project. However, I need to find info on the payloads of the aircraft. For example, how large are SARs? Are they the size of a phone booth, or are the a lot smaller. EXACT dimensions are what I am looking for. ANY sources of information would be helpful. I tried looking around ARPA, and they really didn't have that much useful information. I also browsed the US Air Force a little, but no luck there. Also, the only stuff I could find from Lockheed Martin Skunk Works was pretty pictures, which doesn't help that much either. I need a source of hard (well, it might be soft, since most of it is probably classified) data! Also, I haven't searched for it yet, but maybe you could point me in the right direction: I need to know how much $$$$$ these items cost! Just to make it fun, I will be providing a text based copy of our final project to any or all who would like a copy. It will be done around Christmas time (hopefully!). Thanks! BTW - Can't a stealth aircraft be "seen" by its electrostatic-discharge path? When an aircraft flies through air, especially if it is travelling fast, it will put a lot of energy into the surrounding air. This energy could be detected, and a path could be determined. Then, using the path, a combination of many different sensors could be used to pinpoint the actual airplane. Even if one sensor can only detect a faint echo, a combination of a multitude of sensors could surely tack down on the moving object. i.e. thermal, radio, millimeter band, radar, etc. methods of detection. QUESTION: Anyone know what the RCS was supposed to be on the latest Tri-service Stealth Cruise Missile? robin :p - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- . -- . Robin L. Bjorklund ( ) Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University ( (/oo\) ) E-Mail: bjorklur@db.erau.edu ( \''/ ) WW ( \/ ) wwwwww /__\ ( ) w"ww ww"w | oo | _WWWWW_ ( ) W o""o W (o)(o) (|_()_|) / o o \ (+)(+) oo ( )W ______ W w" "w \__/ (| __O__ |)/ \ w"()"w ( ) "w \_\/_/ w" W -====- W /|\/|\ \ \___/ / \ -==- / W -==- W ' -- ' ww""wwwwww""ww "w w" |||||||| /-------\ \ / "wwww" = = |||||||||||| w""""""""""w |||||||||=========| <\/\/\/> w" "w = = ||||||||||||W W|||||||||=========| / \ Elmo Big Bird Oscar Cookie Monster Bert Ernie Kermit - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 12:20:27 PDT Subject: re: Military SIte, List and Server Info In an earlier message, Ralph Hoefelmeyer <70436.511@compuserve.com> wrote: >I'm looking for pointers to or listings of Military, Intelligence and/or >Covert/Special Operations Web sites, servers, mailing lists, etc. You might be interested in my Web or FTP sites. Although I haven't been on this mailing list much lately, I'm still fighting the Air Force with the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) trying to get information on "black" budget military programs. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ********************************************************************** Anonymous FTP access to files dealing with excessive military secrecy is available from Internet host ftp.shell.portal.com (IP address 156.151.3.4) in the /pub/trader directory. Read the 00readme files for descriptions of the files. Writings from Glenn Campbell, author of the "Area 51 Viewer's Guide" are available in /pub/trader/secrecy/psychospy. (America Online users can use Keyword:FTP, and Web users can use URL ftp://ftp.shell.portal.com/pub/trader/ ) ------------------------------ From: RHOEFELM Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 13:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: 1948 Crash Frank referenced the 1948 plane crash of a B-29 and mentioned a "war scare". Wasn't this around the time period of the Berlin Airlift? There was an incredible amount of tension in Germany & Europe as the Soviet Union shut down Berlin's access to the outside world. This would have definitely have contributed to a "war scare". Ralph S. Hoefelmeyer rhoefelm-cos3@kaman.com or Dire_Wolf 70436.511@compuserve.com Enjoy Nature ... from the top of the food chain. ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 95 14:51:57 EST Subject: Re: 'First Lady' gunship retires at Duke Field Terry- Send this back to the list: There is one more aviation museum of particular note in the vicinity: the Army Aviation Museum is at the nearby (south Alabama) Army Aviation Center, Fort Rucker. Many interesting fixed and rotary wing aircraft. You would be surprised at some of the things the Army has flown. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: 'First Lady' gunship retires at Duke Field Author: Terry Colvin at FHU2 Date: 9/8/95 12:01 PM Not skunky but definetly Lockheed. Kudos to one of the best aircrraft ever built. From the Air Force News Service: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 'First Lady' gunship retires at Duke Field DUKE FIELD, Fla. (AFNS) -- Air Force reservists here will commemorate the end of an era Sept. 10 when they retire the first C-130 aircraft to come off a production line. The aircraft, tail number 53-3129, went into production at the Lockheed Aircraft Co. in Marietta, Ga., in 1953 and was the original prototype of what was to become a long line of C-130 Hercules aircraft designed and built by Lockheed. The aircraft, affectionately dubbed "The First Lady," is one of five AC-130A gunship aircraft that will retire during an official ceremony. While the other four aircraft will be sent to the Aerospace Marketing and Regeneration Center at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Ariz., the First Lady will not fade from view. She will go on permanent display at the Eglin Air Force Base Armament Museum, 20 miles from her home of the past two decades. The reservists who will commemorate her retirement and that of the other four gunships will also continue to remain in the spotlight. The 1,400 members of Duke Field's 919th Special Operations Wing are transitioning to a new mission of flying C- 130N/P Combat Shadow and MC-130E Combat Talon I aircraft. The primary mission of the Combat Shadow is air refueling of special operations forces helicopters, while the primary mission of the Combat Talon aircraft is infiltration, exfiltration and resupply of special operations forces. The reason for the change of mission is that the 919th SOW's gunships, all around 40 years old, have reached the age of mandatory retirement. The only other gunships in the Air Force inventory are employed by active-duty members at Hurlburt Field, Fla., which has less than 20 gunships assigned. (Courtesy AFRES News Service ) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If any of you ever get to Northwest Florida, there are two avaiation museums in the area. Pensacola Naval Air Station ( Home of the Blue Angles ) houses the Naval Aviation Museum which is one of the best displays of aircraft and history outside of the Air & Space Museum. Eglin Air Force Base ( about 50 miles east of Pensacola ) houses the Air Force Armement Museum which expounds upon the history of armament use and development. It has a moderate display of aircraft out front, one of which is an SR-71 sitting next to a B17 Flying Fortress. It's interesting to compare the two and contemplate the advancement in aeronautics. Bill Kunce ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #414 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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