From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #419 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 14 September 1995 Volume 05 : Number 419 In this issue: B-2 Over Bosnia???? Re: B-2 Over Bosnia???? Sweetman Tier 2+ & Tier 3- in Pop Sci Re: Bombers, F-117s & TLAMs RE: B-52 Crash [ Historical Inquiry] Re: B-52 Crash [ Historical Inquiry] Re: Bombers, F-117s & TLAMs See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: murat ozhamam Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:46:52 +0400 (MEDT) Subject: B-2 Over Bosnia???? Yesterday,many TV channels showed a video for the background of Bosnia news including B-2 and F-117 reading the text of Reuters. May they really use(or test) it over Bosnia?Does it worth risking it even against serbs?.........Or,it's just TVs' fault??? Regards, Murat Ozhamam ****************** E-mail:e102878@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr Middle East Technical University,Ankara,TURKEY ****************** ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: B-2 Over Bosnia???? They media is confused, since both the B-2 and the F-117 have "stealth" in the name. They're sending F-117s to Italy. It really is a bomber, despite the "F", just like the F-111. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, murat ozhamam wrote: > > Yesterday,many TV channels showed a video for the background > of Bosnia news including B-2 and F-117 reading the text of Reuters. > May they really use(or test) it over Bosnia?Does it worth risking it > even against serbs?.........Or,it's just TVs' fault??? > > Regards, Murat Ozhamam > ****************** > E-mail:e102878@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr > Middle East Technical University,Ankara,TURKEY > ****************** > > ------------------------------ From: ConsLaw@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:47:44 -0400 Subject: Sweetman Tier 2+ & Tier 3- in Pop Sci The new Popular Science has a Bill Sweetman feature story (though not a cover story) on the Tier 2+ and Tier 3-. I don't think it goes beyond what has been published on this board or taken from AW&ST, but it is a good summary article or intro for newcomers. This same issue also has a photo of a Lockheed JAST STOL mock-up. BTW, our local newspaper and many TV stations said that the US may be sending stealth BOMBERS to Bosnia. Does that drive the rest of you as nuts as it drives me? The false implication that we are actually using our expensive B-2s can skew the policy argument for procuring more. ------------------------------ From: Daga1@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:20:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Bombers, F-117s & TLAMs Well, Doug, First of all -- welcome (from another new subscriber also). Two points: First, I do not agree with what the US is doing in Bosnia very much either, mostly on political grounds and the lack of a cogent foreign policy by our President. But that's really really off-topic. However, if the air-attack policy is aimed at the limited goal of "notifying" the Serbs that they can no longer act aggresively with impunity, it could be very effective. Do we, presently have the will-power to keep it up? I really doubt it. Do we risk much? Certainly. However, I don't think that our air-attack goal is aimed at controlling territory, I think is is directed at forcing a diplomatic settlement. I am not sure it will work, but what was being tried previously was certainly not working. Comparing Desert Storm to the present Balkan situation is faulty though, I would say. To say that we fought for the oil (what the West needed, what Bosnia doesn't have) is accurate -- and no secret. Nor is it shameful. What we did was fight for something was in our interest, precisely. And, it is not fair for you to describe Iraq (ante DS) as a third world army -- you may recall all the pessimists telling us how we were going to get our buts kicked prior to the fighting -- that Iraqi big guns, Iraqi mines, Iraqi aircraft, Iraqi this and Iraqi that was all superior to the American and/or Allied forces -- one interview after another on all the tv networks predicting disaster, huge casualties. What happened? We made them *look* like a third world power. Precisely because of the genius of places like the Skunk-Works (see, I got something in that was on-topic!). But you are right about one thing, if I read you right. I think the Serbs should be required to withdraw to the original line, and they should not keep any part of the land taken by them by force. I also expect to win tonight's Lotto. Andy ------------------------------ From: JOHN Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 20:11:14 EDT Subject: RE: B-52 Crash [ Historical Inquiry] While we're on the subject of "backasswards" hook-ups, from Ben Rich's book Skunk Works. the First production F-117 Air Force acceptance flight, piloted by Bob Riedenauer was a failure, and the aircraft was lost, because the yaw & pitch controls were reversed, when the servo-mechanism, they were connected to, was repositioned from one equipment bay to another, the night before the flight. - --------- And from Rawnsley's book Night Fighter. about British radar-equipt night-fighter operations during WWII a quote from Pilot John Cunningham, (later to be the De Havilland's chief test pilot, and did all the testing and development work on the Comet) While flight testing a recently "repaired" Beaufighter prior to night combat operations, just after takeoff: " Well ... You'll no doubt be interested to know that we are two hundred feet below the ground, and going backwards" seems the blind-flying panel had been connected wrong..... John Szalay jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com ::::Of Course I don,t speak for GE ! ------------------------------ From: MiGEater1@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 21:10:19 -0400 Subject: Re: B-52 Crash [ Historical Inquiry] Not quite Skunky, but since most everyone seems to be a fan of Military Aviation, here goes.... Sunday, September 30th 9:00 p.m.--WINGS Defender of the Fleet Although revolutionary in the seventies, the Grumman F-14 Tomcat did not really achieve notoriety until the movie "Top Gun." This symbol of naval air superiority is probably the last true fighter plane. The daily challenges of real-life pilots, the state-of-the-art systems, and the Navy's first women fighter pilots are profiled. Enjoy! John Clark ------------------------------ From: Michael G Schwern Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 00:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Bombers, F-117s & TLAMs On 13-Sep-95 in Bombers, F-117s & TLAMs user Doug Geddes@frontier.can writes: >Hi all. > >Those who think the mighty NATO war machine, using mostly air power can have a > >substantive enough effect on the Serbs to get them to submit to UN wishes are >dreaming. There is a big difference between an educated determined army that >believes in what it is doing in the mountains, from a bunch of uneducated >ineffective fighters, fighting a war they don't give a dam about in a wide >open desert. U.S. military analysis have determined that it would take an >army of 2.2 million on the GROUND to beat the Serbs into submissiveness. >Where are the lessons we have learned in every war this century, that air >power cannot hold or take ground - but it is sure convenient to have. The >Serbs will have the last laugh again, and they know the US does not have the >will power to send ground troops. And all we are asking them to do is accept >1/2 of the country they have conquered. Why not all of it? Why didn't we ask > >Iraq to return only half of Kuwait? Because Bosnia has nothing the West wants > >and the West wanted all of the oil, and a third world army in a wide open >desert is a turkey shoot for any modern nation. Just the opinion of an >opinionated Canadian. Just realized that I may have continued and off-topic >post. Sorry about that guys and gals. I am new here and will try to behave >better in the future. > >Regards >Doug Yeah, I do agree with you whole-heartedly about the ground analysis, hypocritical attitude of the world on Bosnia etc... I've been saying the same thing for two years (or has it been four?) but there are a few things you left out about the effects of air power... There already is an army on the ground fighting the Serbs... the Muslim/Croat coalition (they're still around, not out yet.) The Serbs are currently on the offensive in relatively mobile positions open to air strikes. They are not entrenched in the mountains, yet... My point is, yes, if the Serbs were to withdraw to more defendable positions and dig in, NATO's air strikes would be useless... but if they were to do so it gives the Muslim/Croats time to train (this winter will be a big chance for them), get the silly arms embargo lifted and a chance to launch an offensive against the Bosnian Serbs. In fact, they're already taking advantage of the air strikes... they just took back a few positions... > ZAGREB, Sept 13 (Reuter) - Bosnian Serbs appear to have a >lost the key town of Donji Vakuf to a joint offensive by Croat >and Moslem forces supported by the Croatian army in central and >western Bosnia, the United Nations said on Wednesday. ... > Croatian state television said Bosnian Croat troops had >taken control of 1,500 square km (580 square miles) of territory >between Drvar in the west and Sipovo and the river Vrbas in the >east in the past few days. > The gains included the strategic mountain pass of Mliniste >and the important peaks of Demirovac and Vitorog, which guard >access to the north and to the Serb-held towns of Jajce and >Mrkonjic Grad, it said. Any army will fight less effectively when it is being hit with air strikes. If the Serbs continue their offensives, they remain in the open and get pounded. My hope is that the Serbs WON'T agree to talks, because you're right, that "peace" plan is shit, NATO will continue bombing, the arms embargo will be lifted, the Muslim/Croat coalition will reclaim enough territory and regain enough strength so that they can go to the bargining table as equals. Floggo the Stupid ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #419 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).