From:      skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu
To:        skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu
Subject:   Skunk Works Digest V5 #426
Reply-To:  skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu
Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu
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Skunk Works Digest       Tuesday, 19 September 1995     Volume 05 : Number 426

In this issue:

	Re: Jet Engines
	Re: Does a small space glider exist?
	Re: Jet Engines
	[none]
	Jet Engines
	F-117 on Carriers
	Re: F-117 on Carriers

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works
or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: larry@ichips.intel.com
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:45:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Jet Engines

Chuck Smith writes:
>This is where jet engines fail. The thrust of a jet engine (turbo, fan, SCRAM,,RAM, even
>...
>...
>...                                                      Since the Mach number 
>at the exit of the combustion chamber cannot exceed Mach1, 

You're just tryin to see if I'm awake aren't ya Chuck. Thought you'd slip
that one by me!   :)

In a SCRAM engine, in scramjet mode, the exit flow of the combustion chamber does 
exceed Mach 1.

>So, for  high velocity, you can`t use airbreathing engines.

Not a true statement.

Not only is 'high velocity' unqualified, and it represents a rather large range
these days, but there is no mention of combined cycle engines, nor has it been
proven that say orbital velocity is not attainable some day with an airbreathing
engine.

>There are no supersonic combustion chambers yet.

There have been many. I've quoted sources in the past.

Here's another.

There was a display of at least one at the Air Force Museum a year or so ago.
If I recall, it was one of Tony Ferri's engines tested at GASL (General Applied
Sciences Lab).

Mary writes:
>We never launched a real Space Shuttle from the 747.

Right, we didn't, but it happened in a James Bond movie!   :)

Not much left of the 747, or as the UK spy dudes say, seven-four-seven, either!

Larry

------------------------------

From: larry@ichips.intel.com
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:54:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Does a small space glider exist?

>You can see that the HL-20 was far more than a
>paper plane..but whether it, or something like it ever got built is an
>open question..I still think niet Larry !

But I bet you wouldn't be surprised if it did!  :)

Larry

------------------------------

From: Brad Hitch <hitch@stout.entertain.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 02:25:27 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Jet Engines

On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com wrote:

> Don`t really know where to start.
> Jet engines have a inherent problem for orbital insertion. The goal of an
> orbital system is to gain velocity. Get the velocity and the altitude  will take 
> care of itself. ( You can use the "total energy approach" also, but most of goal 
> is still velocity!)

true

> 
> This is where jet engines fail. The thrust of a jet engine (turbo, fan, SCRAM,,RAM, even
> turboprops) falls off as the velocity increases. This can be easily explained in terms
> of momentum. The thrust is nothing more than the mass flow rate of air multiplied
> by the difference between the exit and inlet velocities.

true

> Since the Mach number 
> at the exit of the combustion chamber cannot exceed Mach1, the fully expanded
> exhaust has a finite velocity. Since the exhuast velocity is fixed, as the inlet velocity
> increases (airspeed) the difference and hence the thrust, decreases with speed.

somewhat false - if the combustion chamber flow is subsonic and the final 
jet velocity is supersonic then the flow must pass through a minimum 
effective area where the flow is exactly sonic.  The final jet velocity 
then depends only on the area ratio of the exit area to the throat area 
(for the 1-dimensional flow approximation, which isn't too bad).  For the 
best performance you try to expand the flow back to the ambient pressure.
The maximum jet velocity corresponds to the point where the static temperature
of the jet is at absolute zero and all of the available energy has been
exchanged for kinetic energy.  For hypersonic aircraft the real culprit 
behind decreasing thrust is increasing inlet total pressure losses with 
increasing flight speed.

> Sooner or later the thrust will decrease to be equal with the drag and you reach 
> top speed. 

true 

> Since jet engines run very lean, the fuel air ratio is usually small enough to neglect
> the change in velocity for the fuel mass flow rate.
> (J-79`s NOT included in this assumption!!! Guzzle - Guzzle)

false - jet engine augmentors (or afterburners) run near stoichiometric 
so there is little oxygen left in the exhaust gas stream.  The fuel flow 
is then about 6.8% of the air flow by weight.  The J-79 is no different 
than the F110 (F-16, F-15) in this regard.

> On a rocket, the thrust is constant regardless of velocity, since the "inlet" velocity
> is always zero, and the exhaust speed is constant.  Of course, as altitude increases
> the nozzle will become overexpanded

false - the nozzle will become underexpanded as the ambient pressure 
falls with increasing altitude.

> and thrust will start to fall off.

false - the thrust will remain the same if the combustion chamber 
pressure and fuel and oxidizer mass flows remain constant.  The flow and 
pressure distributions inside the rocket nozzle are not affected at all by 
their surroundings as long as the exit flow is supersonic and attached.  The 
drag will decrease due to a decreasing dynamic pressure and the acceleration 
will increase due to a lower mass as the propellents are burned off and 
lower drag.

> When this
> happens, its time to drop that motor and start a new one. (Well, there are
> a few other considerations but that is one of the red x`s in the "pi" ratios.)
>  
> So, for  high velocity, you can`t use airbreathing engines.  
> There are no supersonic combustion chambers yet.

false - there have been numerous scramjet engines tested

> But believe me, Stephan, Dan
> and I are working on it. We`ll keep everyone posted if any breakthroughs come up.
> 
> Excellent Question.
> 
> Chuck Smith
> "Aerospace Engineer to the Stars"
> 


------------------------------

From: Stuart McMurtrie <smcmurtrie@uk.b-r.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 11:11:00 PDT
Subject: [none]

Silly I know, but I use this as wallpaper in windoze.
Tiled it don't look half bad !!

[[ SKNKBK1.BMP : 2855 in SKNKBK1.BMP ]]

Stuart.
PS: the books not a bad read either :-)

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`
end

------------------------------

From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 7:28:54 EDT
Subject: Jet Engines

Jay Freeman writes:
> 
> I am sure that someone with more knowledge than I will reply
> with words to the effect that post-combustion-chamber-exit
> nozzle expansion can produce speeds in excess of Mach 1, but
> I also wanted to note that sailboats *can* exceed the speed
> of the wind.
>                                     --  Jay Freeman
> 

Frank Marcus writes:
>  
> Sailboats can exceed the speed of the wind.  Catamarans (which have
> relatively little drag) can go MUCH faster. 
>  
> -- 
> Frank Markus 


David Moffett Writes:

> I was always told to look at it as an energy balance.  The friction
> in the air takes energy away (usually as heat) and the engines add
> energy.  As long as engines are adding more than aerodynamic forces
> are taking away there is the possibility of going faster.
> 


Boy, am I sorry I made that sailboat comment.  Yes, I also know that
sailboats can go faster than the wind.  I saw an article in Popular
Science a few years back.  I received six responses about the sailboat
and one about the jet engine, and I'll probably be the one to get
flamed about being off topic.



- -- 



A hundred years from now, it will not matter  
what kind of house I live in, how much is in
my bank account, or what kind of car I drive,
but the world may be a different place because
I was important in the life of a child.

Douglas J. Tiffany   dougt@u011.oh.vp.com
Varco-Pruden Buildings  Van Wert, Ohio


------------------------------

From: "RUSSELL.B" <BOBR@GOMAIL.DOAS.STATE.GA.US>
Date: 19 Sep 1995 08:36:08 GMT
Subject: F-117 on Carriers

Date: Tuesday, 19 September 1995 8:35am ET
To: Internet
From: RUSSELL.B@GOMAIL
Subject: F-117 on Carriers

In the line of discussion about the black jet on a carrier.  There was
a small note in Defense & Security Electronics mag. that stated that
the Senate version of the defense authorization bill had funds to
"initiate what it called "a limited demonstration" of a Navy version
of the F-117 Stealth Fighter,...".  This could be an interesting turn
of events.

Just another software type question.

Bob Russell
Systems Programmer
State of Georgia, DOAS



------------------------------

From: Paul Adams <paul@ERC.MsState.Edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 07:56:25 -0500
Subject: Re: F-117 on Carriers

> From: ConsLaw@aol.com
> No one knows more about carrier aircraft than Grumman. 

Aren't you forgetting McDonnell Douglas?  After all, they are the ones 
still producing the F/A-18.  When was the last time Grumman built an
F-14?

> It wouldn't surprise me if an arrester hook was fitted to a F-117 on an 
> experimental basis.    

It would surprise me.  You have two problems with an arrestor hook on an
F-117.  The first is what to attach it to.  The second is to make it able
to stand up to a carrier landing.  

The first problem is moot because the F-117 has a tailhook! (F-117 Aerofax p48)
The second problem is the main one.  Just because a plane has a tailhook,
does not mean that it is suited to land on a carrier.  I have seen F-15's 
with tailhooks.  I have never seen or heard of one landing on a carrier.

> The bottom line:  From an engineering standpoint, it's not that difficult to
> modify an aircraft for carrier operations.  In addition to adding the hardware
> for stopping and starting, sometimes there has to be structural strengthening
> to handle the arrested landings.

All at the expense of performance, of course.  I am not even certain that
it can be done.  Look at the main gear doors for the F-117.  A bulge can
be seen if you look close enough.  On the outside it looks like a prism.
This is to accomodate the heavy duty main gear.  The F-117 has such rugged
gear to accomodate heavy aircraft payloads.  Now, if there is already a tight 
fit for the main gear, how are they going to beef it up to take on the 
additional stress of a controlled crash on a carrier?

Paul
 
            \       ___       /                    Paul Adams
             \     /___\     /                     paul@erc.msstate.edu
  ____________\___/__.__\___/____________          YF-22
              \   \     /   /
               \__/\___/\__/

------------------------------

End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #426
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