From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #437 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 27 September 1995 Volume 05 : Number 437 In this issue: Re: F-117A at RAF Coltishall F-117s at RAF Colitshall RE: Frozen Chickens RE: Frozen Chickens RE: Frozen Chickens No more chickens! Re: Frozen Chickens (more on) Re: Frozen Chickens, Paint. Re: Frozen Chickens (more on) Re: Frozen Chickens, Paint. Re: Aurora & Blackbird Re: Frozen Chickens (more on) Re: No more chickens! See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scy@tadpole.co.uk (Steve Young) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:36:18 +0100 Subject: Re: F-117A at RAF Coltishall >>>From skunk-works-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Mon Sep 25 20:46:09 1995 >>X-UIDL: 812103138.004 >>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:51:59 +0100 >>From: James Easton >>To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu >>CC: texje@bonaly.hw.ac.uk >>Subject: F-117A at RAF Coltishall >>Sender: skunk-works-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu >>Precedence: bulk >> >>There is a current rumour that the F-117A is being seen flying from RAF >>Coltishall in Norfolk, England. >> >>If anyone can either confirm or debunk, it would be appreciated. >> >> >> >>James. >>___________________________________________________________ >>Internet: TEXJE@BONALY.HW.AC.UK * CompuServe: 100626,2242 >> >> I can't confirm this unfortunately, but I would say it is definately possible. RAF Coltishall is the home of the majority of the Royal Air Force's Jaguar squadrons, including No's 6, 54 and 41. While 6 and 54 Squadrons are tasked with the ground attack role, 41 Squadron is a well-established reconnaissance unit, which has been operating the Jaguar for a number of years. 41 Squadron actually have their own reconnaisance interpretation centre (RIC) on RAF Coltishall, and as a result active security at the station, and especially in 41's area, is very tight. Additionally, the station is sited on a small hill-top plateau in the Norfolk countryside, and is surrounded by probably the only valleys in the whole of East Anglia. This means that RAF Coltishall is one of the few large UK stations where it is difficult to 'look through the wire'. Having driven round the outside of Coltishall in the past, I can confirm that it is almost impossible for the casual observer to get a view of the runway, taxiways, aircraft hardstandings or hardened aircraft shelters (HAS's). Both these factors could possibly have had an influence in the attachment of an F-117A unit at RAF Coltishall, if indeed they are there at all. Steve Young ------------------------------ From: seb@tadpole.co.uk (Steven Barber) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:02:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: F-117s at RAF Colitshall I passed the question along and got the following response: Quote: I can't confirm this unfortunately, but I would say it is definately possible. RAF Coltishall is the home of the majority of the Royal Air Force's Jaguar squadrons, including No's 6, 54 and 41. While 6 and 54 Squadrons are tasked with the ground attack role, 41 Squadron is a well-established reconnaissance unit, which has been operating the Jaguar for a number of years. 41 Squadron actually have their own reconnaisance interpretation centre (RIC) on RAF Coltishall, and as a result active security at the station, and especially in 41's area, is very tight. Additionally, the station is sited on a small hill-top plateau in the Norfolk countryside, and is surrounded by probably the only valleys in the whole of East Anglia. This means that RAF Coltishall is one of the few large UK stations where it is difficult to 'look through the wire'. Having driven round the outside of Coltishall in the past, I can confirm that it is almost impossible for the casual observer to get a view of the runway, taxiways, aircraft hardstandings or hardened aircraft shelters (HAS's). Both these factors could possibly have had an influence in the attachment of an F-117A unit at RAF Coltishall, if indeed they are there at all. Unquote. So it seems unlikely to get more data unless someone sees one of the beasts in the air... Steve Barber ------------------------------ From: dsm@iti-oh.com (dsm@iti-oh.com) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 95 08:36:23 EDT Subject: RE: Frozen Chickens :: I originally heard the story from a relative who was pretty high up at GE, :: although not in the Aero Engines Business. Supposedly it happened in the :: 1960s :: during testing of the GE4, the huge afterburning turbojets that were intended :: for the Boeing 2707 SST. Said relative swore up and down it was true. :: :: Well, as my friend Owen O'Neil says, "It's a great story. And if it isn't :: true, it should be." :: George, In the "For what it's worth dept." My father was a Pipefitter who worked on the test cell construction crew at GE Evendale here in Cincy. I think it was around 1968 or so. Somewhere in that time period. I also beleive it was indeed chickens and not turkeys used at the time. However, if memory serves me also, I thought birds were replaced in the late 70's by a large gell pack of some sort. I'll have to ask my neighbor down the street. I would think that PITA would have a fit at the way these birds are cooked and packaged. - -- Dan ------------------------------ From: dsm@iti-oh.com (dsm@iti-oh.com) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 95 09:09:05 EDT Subject: RE: Frozen Chickens :: I originally heard the story from a relative who was pretty high up at GE, :: although not in the Aero Engines Business. Supposedly it happened in the :: 1960s :: during testing of the GE4, the huge afterburning turbojets that were intended :: for the Boeing 2707 SST. Said relative swore up and down it was true. :: :: Well, as my friend Owen O'Neil says, "It's a great story. And if it isn't :: true, it should be." :: George, In the "For what it's worth dept." My father was a Pipefitter who worked on the test cell construction crew at GE Evendale here in Cincy. I think it was around 1968 or so. Somewhere in that time period. I also beleive it was indeed chickens and not turkeys used at the time. However, if memory serves me also, I thought birds were replaced in the late 70's by a large gell pack of some sort. I'll have to ask my neighbor down the street. I would think that PITA would have a fit at the way these birds are cooked and packaged. - -- Dan McKenney ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: Frozen Chickens On Tue, 26 Sep 1995 dsm@iti-oh.com wrote: George said: > :: I originally heard the story from a relative who was pretty high up at GE, ... > :: Well, as my friend Owen O'Neil says, "It's a great story. And if it isn't > :: true, it should be." > :: > George, > > some sort. I'll have to ask my neighbor down the street. I would think that > PITA would have a fit at the way these birds are cooked and packaged. See, this is what I mean by sharing the technology with industry. Imagine the applications in the open market, for a scaled down version, from Fast Foods, to a RONCO version in your pantry for thanksgiving! ;-) On a stealthy note, the Wash. Post had a front page pix of the B2 and med. art. on the current fleet. Believe it was last Saturday. See ya! regards, ________ BaDge ------------------------------ From: seb@tadpole.co.uk (Steven Barber) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 15:52:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: No more chickens! Please, no more. They're not particularly stealthy or skunky, nor particularly high-velocity or high altitude (unless compared with other chicken). Can we just take the rest of the stories as read? My windshield has definitely been shattered... Regards, Steve ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Frozen Chickens (more on) Here in California, Perdue (note spelling--these aren't university birds) means frozen. Now Foster Farms--those are fresh. This "freshness" of thawed, previously-frozen birds is an issue in what's not quite an interstate trade war. (We don't have salmonella in undamaged eggs, either--that's a Delmarva problem.) But to get back to the point, I'm just about certain that the "using a frozen bird in the chicken cannon" story is absolutely apocryphal. I've heard it from GE about P&W, P&W about GE, both about RR, and so on. I've never ever been able to track it closer than "I heard" or "this retired guy told me that he heard", etc. On the other hand, I heard the one about the alligator from someone who saw the cast and everything, so I believe it. Of course, if I tell it to you, you'll be in the "someone told me that she heard this story about" position. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, George Allegrezza 25-Sep-1995 1451 wrote: > My comment on the urban legend-ness of the bird story was related to the > use of *frozen* birds. Fresh (and I mean Purdue-fresh) birds are another > matter. I've seen a number of film clips of bird strike/ingestion tests > using the ever-popular bird cannon, on shows like Wings and Beyond 2000. > > George > > George Allegrezza | > Digital Equipment Corporation | "What's dangerous? You could catch on > Mobile Systems Business | fire doing a Pepsi commercial." > Littleton MA USA | > allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Dale Earnhardt > ------------------------------ From: Clyde Prichard Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:39:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Frozen Chickens, Paint. Re: Chickens I understand from watching a number of the science films discussed that the cannons are not full speed and thus the chicken are left frozen to make up the difference. I also heard that the chickens are, in many cases, still in tact after their shot but are not available for consumption because of possible bone fragments etc. Re: Paint / Coating The color, texture, and thermal properties of your paint make a difference and these differences vary over frequency. One can't assume that all black paints re-radiate. Some are great asorbers and lousy re-radiators (best for solar collectors). Others are just the reverse... like the one I randomly choose to coat my ad hoc solar heater (big mistake). Wicking away heat from a hot spot, like a leading edge, may be more important than thermal absorb-son/re-radiation perticularly in active cooling situations. Metal treatments such as anodizing and plating, can make a big difference. Hot rodder's find this out the hard way. Chrome plating your engine is a great way to cook it. Weight is a significant factor in aircraft. I understand the shuttle lost well over 200 pounds when it dropped the white top coat on the tank (orange is the primer). When painting even a private a/c one must recalculate its weight and balance. Most importantly, when I once asked one of the thermal guys why they bothered anodizing a black box black (that was later to be covered with a thermal blanket and connected to an active thermal sink for use in low orbit) he answered that if they didn't treat it, and if it wasn't black then everyone (except other thermal guys) would ask the bases for his choice. A coating was prudent path, and everyone was expecting black. - -- Clyde Prichard EMAIL: pricharc@agcs.com ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 26-Sep-1995 1513 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 95 15:18:09 EDT Subject: Re: Frozen Chickens (more on) I dunno Mary -- I've met folks from Purdue, and they're pretty fowl. George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | "What's dangerous? You could catch on Mobile Systems Business | fire doing a Pepsi commercial." Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Dale Earnhardt ------------------------------ From: Clyde Prichard Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:41:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Frozen Chickens, Paint. - ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Re: Chickens I understand from watching a number of the science films discussed that the cannons are not full speed and thus the chicken are left frozen to make up the difference. I also heard that the chickens are, in many cases, still in tact after their shot but are not available for consumption because of possible bone fragments etc. Re: Paint / Coating The color, texture, and thermal properties of your paint make a difference and these differences vary over frequency. One can't assume that all black paints re-radiate. Some are great asorbers and lousy re-radiators (best for solar collectors). Others are just the reverse... like the one I randomly choose to coat my ad hoc solar heater (big mistake). Wicking away heat from a hot spot, like a leading edge, may be more important than thermal absorb-son/re-radiation perticularly in active cooling situations. Metal treatments such as anodizing and plating, can make a big difference. Hot rodder's find this out the hard way. Chrome plating your engine is a great way to cook it. Weight is a significant factor in aircraft. I understand the shuttle lost well over 200 pounds when it dropped the white top coat on the tank (orange is the primer). When painting even a private a/c one must recalculate its weight and balance. Most importantly, when I once asked one of the thermal guys why they bothered anodizing a black box black (that was later to be covered with a thermal blanket and connected to an active thermal sink for use in low orbit) he answered that if they didn't treat it, and if it wasn't black then everyone (except other thermal guys) would ask the bases for his choice. A coating was prudent path, and everyone was expecting black. - -- Clyde Prichard EMAIL: pricharc@agcs.com - - ------------------------------ From: chosa@chosa.win.net (Byron Weber) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:14:21 Subject: Re: Aurora & Blackbird >Forwarded from SPACE TECH list: > >Date: 21 Sep 1995 05:16:12 GMT >From: Wolverine >Subject: Hello Aurora, Goodby Blackbird > > > >New metals? Obviously we know the elements, so either you're talking >about alloys or about better manufacturing processes. You really can't >escape a metal's melting point, whether you have pig iron or high tech >steel, it will melt at similar temperatures. It may hold up at higher >temperatures before it yields thermally. I don't think much of anything >can be done about the value of thermal deformations. Composites so far >have proven to be lighter/stronger materials, but they just can't take >very high temperatures in general. Then again I'm not a materials >researcher, and if there are high temp composites, they may be classified. > >raist > > Way back when, late 40's-early 50's, Battelle Memorial Institute under a RAND subcontract found titanium was a useful structural material. I suspect that study prompted the Skunk Works to give it a try, despite the problems described by Ben Rich. Also studied was beryllium. Dr. George Hoffman, a RAND engineer, published "Beryllium as an Aircraft Structural Material," in 1956, RAND Corporation report RM-1642 and article P-871. Has beryllium been used to any great extent. I understand it was a successful material for missles, but what about planes? Byron ------------------------------ From: Pionusman@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:59:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Frozen Chickens (more on) Frozen chickens do get shot into aircraft bodies, windshields, engines etc. ------------------------------ From: Daga1@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 23:22:59 -0400 Subject: Re: No more chickens! Yes, indeed. Enough with the chickens already. More titanium, please. Thanks. Andy ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #437 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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