From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu
To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu
Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #445
Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu
Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu
Precedence: bulk
Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 3 October 1995 Volume 05 : Number 445
In this issue:
Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd)
Mach 3 Phantom
Groom Lake
Re: CIA control over Internet?
Exotic materials
RAM paint
transparent project
Re: Groom Lake
Re: beryllium
Off topic
Airbourne Observatory
Re: Groom Lake
Enhanced Explosives in Stealthy Munitions
Re: Mach 3 Phantom
Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd)
Re: ATFs
Re: Groom Lake
Re: Double Sonic Booms in LA
Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #443
SR-71 and F-177 pics...
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works
or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 03:59:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd)
Once upon a time Steve Schaper shaped the electrons to say...
>This is nonsense. The internet is a DARPA project. Of _course_ there are
>connections!
*WAS* an ARPA project. Remember, it started as ARPAnet.
But *was* is the operative word.
- -- megazone@world.std.com 510-527-0944
MegaZone's Waste Of Time
Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works;
rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to
majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the body.
------------------------------
From: John Burtenshaw
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 10:13:02 -0100
Subject: Mach 3 Phantom
Hi All
I read (and saw a photo) some years ago that MDD had been given a contract
by a middle-east country (no prizes for guessing which one) to uprate one of
their airforce's F-4Es to Mach 3 capability. The photo showed a saddle tank
fitted and increased air-intake size. The designation for this bird was the
RF-4X and I guess it was going to be an answer to the Mig-25 recon planes
employed by Egypt at the time. The camo was typical Israeli Air Force with
Stars and Bars where the Star of David would be. Anyone know what happened
to this project and if there was any RAM added to it.
Regards
John
===========================================================================
John Burtenshaw
Systems Administrator, The Computer Centre, Bournemouth University
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB U.K.
Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk
Phone: 01202 595089
Fax: 01202 513293
AX.25: g1hok@gb7bnm.#45.gbr.eu.
AMPRnet: g1hok.ampr.org. (44.131.17.82)
CompuServe: 100336,3113
===========================================================================
------------------------------
From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 5:32:40 EDT
Subject: Groom Lake
I found this at Reuters
http://beta.yahoo.com/headlines/current/news/summary.html
Do you suppose they're talking about our favoite place??
Radiation Report Due - A presidential advisory panel is expected to turn
over to President Clinton today its recommendation that the government pay
compensation to subjects of some secret Cold War radiation experiments,
even if they suffered no apparant harm. The panel was appointed by Clinton
18 months ago to consider ethical issues linked to classified
experiments. It found that in some cases the government's actions
were so terrible that descendents of those who took part in
radiation experiments should be compensated.
- --
A hundred years from now, it will not matter
what kind of house I live in, how much is in
my bank account, or what kind of car I drive,
but the world may be a different place because
I was important in the life of a child.
Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com
Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio
------------------------------
From: David Windle
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 10:50:25
Subject: Re: CIA control over Internet?
>>Is the military-industrial complex trying to infiltrate the Internet?
Off Charter Alert!
That said..let's not forget that DARPA research opened up the possibility
of the Net in the first instance. Any intelligence agency is bound to
consider national security implications of the Net, so no surprises there.
An astonishing amount of intelligence data is obtained from open sources
anyway, but no-one seriously concludes from this that intel controls the
media overall.
You could just as easily argue that the Net is a logical area of interest
to companies seeking to use mil hi-tech in peaceful ways. There are big
bucks to made out here in cyberspace..I'm more worried that huge
corporations are going to screw things up for us rather than any intel
infiltration implicatons..on that unintentional alliteration I rest my
case :)
D
------------------------------
From: Andrew See
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 20:20:20 +1000
Subject: Exotic materials
Just on the recent subject of Exotic materials being used in the latest
stealth aircraft,
I remember reading a while back that one stealth craft in development used
some type of
transparent metal alloy for certain components.
Anyone know more about this?
_--_|\ Andrew See asee@magna.com.au
/ \
\_.--._/<-Sydney, Australia-It doesn't get any better than this.
v
"doh" -Homer Simpson
"it won't happen overnight, but it will happen." -Rachel Hunter.
------------------------------
From: "Joe Pialet"
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 07:13:07 +0100
Subject: RAM paint
The recent questions about RAM paints/coatings for stealth planes looks like
the beginning of a good discussion. There seem to be two major types of RAM
materials - lossy magnetics and lossy dielectrics. Radar induces an
oscillating magnetic field in lossy magnetics (iron ball, ferrites) which is
dissipated as heat. These materials are more effective against older long
wavelength radar. Radar induces an oscillating electric field in the lossy
dielectrics (carbon. organic semiconductors) which is also dissipated as
heat. These materials are more effective against modern microwave radar.
The SR-71 used iron ball paint and the B1B used a ferrite loaded neoprene
coating in some areas including the intakes. I know that the F117A used
some conductive polymers so I would assume they use both lossy magntics and
lossy dielectrics. I know Lockheed did a lot of research on organic
semiconductors, such as polyaniline, at the Kelly Johnson Research Center.
BTW - I have seen one report that the ECM equipment can vary the performance
characteristics of the iron ball paint by varying tthe polarization of the
particles. Has anyone heard of this?
------------------------------
From: JOHN
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 07:10:55 EDT
Subject: transparent project
> "asee@magna.com.au" "Andrew See"
>
> Just on the recent subject of Exotic materials being used in the latest
> stealth aircraft,
> I remember reading a while back that one stealth craft in development used
> some type of transparent metal alloy for certain components.
>
> Anyone know more about this?
Ben Rich makes reference to it in his book, seems the material was so
transparent to radar, the engine showed up on radar like a beacon.
One reason the engines for the F-117 & the B-2 are "buried" so deep and
shrouded as it were, to prevent radar from ever "seeing" the engines.
I assume the spinning blades act like a corner reflector...
------------------------------
From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 07:42:36 EDT
Subject: Re: Groom Lake
It has more to do with Rochester and Niagara Falls, NY than it
has to do with Groom Lake. Seems that one of the local Rochester
Universities had been conducting tests for the GOV. But, they
forgot to tell all their patients what was really going on.
Several families found out and are in the process of suing.
A little futher west the government sold used gold to the local
jewelry community. The gold was contaminated by radiation and
caused cancer and other problems from the rings that were made.
Docters would tell patients that they were allergic to gold. That
lasted until someone passed a radiation detector over his wifes
hand and it lit up big time. (The detector not the hand :) )
Love Canal only affected the people that lived there. The rings
were sold all over Niagara County and Erie County. No resolution
on this yet.
I'm just repeating what has been on the local news and in the local
press.....so please no flames.
Douglas J. Tiffany says:
>
> I found this at Reuters
>
> http://beta.yahoo.com/headlines/current/news/summary.html
>
> Do you suppose they're talking about our favoite place??
>
>
> Radiation Report Due - A presidential advisory panel is expected to turn
> over to President Clinton today its recommendation that the government pay
> compensation to subjects of some secret Cold War radiation experiments,
> even if they suffered no apparant harm. The panel was appointed by Clinton
> 18 months ago to consider ethical issues linked to classified
> experiments. It found that in some cases the government's actions
> were so terrible that descendents of those who took part in
> radiation experiments should be compensated.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> A hundred years from now, it will not matter
> what kind of house I live in, how much is in
> my bank account, or what kind of car I drive,
> but the world may be a different place because
> I was important in the life of a child.
>
> Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com
> Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio
>
>
------------------------------
From: dosgood@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dean Osgood)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:19:46 -0500
Subject: Re: beryllium
>In <9508278122.AA812223614@fhu.disa.mil>, "Terry Colvin"
>
>[[forwards from an unknown source]]:
>> Has beryllium >been used to any great extent. I understand it was
>a successful >material for missles, but what about planes?
>You want to be VERY carefull with Be !!
>The oxide is very nice and hard, stable and a great cancer source. Early
>chemists touched cheek to identify ceramic parts from other materials, very
>big problem after a few years.
>
>The soluble compounds cause their own disease berylliosis (sp).
>The pure metal is ok, I think - but any corrosion and .....
> I'm not a materials fella, but I do know beryllium is very often used in
> satellite structures. I understand that it is also used in missles,....
> is toxic and should not be worked or handled by the uninitiated. Never
> taste it!
>
> Steve.
We use beryllium here at NASA/GSFC Optics for spacecraft mirrors and
structural parts. Its not so much in the handleing, its the DUST from
machining/grinding that is QUICKLY FATAL. Of course for regular handeling
we wear latex gloves, etc.
The maching is VERY expensive, as it MUST be done by remote control in a
dust tight enclosure.
Dean Osgood
------------------------------
From: (SSG, ANTHONY, MAA, 565)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 7:47:14 PDT
Subject: Off topic
"Who is watching the Internet" is answered by "obviously the gov't intel
types have an interest in a global comm. network".
Keep on charter, please.
------------------------------
From: cogan@cave.arc.nasa.gov (Bruce Cogan)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:54:28 -0700
Subject: Airbourne Observatory
In the back of Jay Miller's Skunkworks Book is a drawing of a proposed airbourne
observatory for NASA. The plane has 6 engines and was to be used for inrfra
red and other astronomy missions. Does any one have more information on this
project? I assume it was cancelled and a C-141 was modified becoming the
Kuipwer Airbourne Observatory. Was this a skunkworks proposal or just a
Lockheed proposal. Any information would be apprecitated.
Bruce Cogan
KAO 1974 -1995 RIP
------------------------------
From: Mary Shafer
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:48:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Groom Lake
No, they did most of that stuff at university and veteran's hospitals.
Don't you guys ever read the papers? This was a major scandal about 2
years ago. Injecting folks with radioactive materials to see how the body
processed it, injecting terminal patients to see what the effects on
lifespan were, all kinds of creepy stuff, all done without telling people
what was happening.
Compared to this dusting folks with a little fallout was nothing....
Regards,
Mary
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard
Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end....
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Doug Tiffany wrote:
> I found this at Reuters
>
> http://beta.yahoo.com/headlines/current/news/summary.html
>
> Do you suppose they're talking about our favoite place??
>
>
> Radiation Report Due - A presidential advisory panel is expected to turn
> over to President Clinton today its recommendation that the government pay
> compensation to subjects of some secret Cold War radiation experiments,
> even if they suffered no apparant harm. The panel was appointed by Clinton
> 18 months ago to consider ethical issues linked to classified
> experiments. It found that in some cases the government's actions
> were so terrible that descendents of those who took part in
> radiation experiments should be compensated.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> A hundred years from now, it will not matter
> what kind of house I live in, how much is in
> my bank account, or what kind of car I drive,
> but the world may be a different place because
> I was important in the life of a child.
>
> Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com
> Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio
>
------------------------------
From: RHOEFELM
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 09:50:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Enhanced Explosives in Stealthy Munitions
Hi,
What are some of the enhanced explosives used in
stealthy munitions? Is there on-going research into
enhanced chemical explosives? Who is doing it?
Are they published in the literature? Have these
explosives been used in materials forming work?
TIA,
Ralph S. Hoefelmeyer rhoefelm-cos3@kaman.com
or
Dire_Wolf 70436.511@compuserve.com
Enjoy Nature ... from the top of the food chain.
------------------------------
From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:29:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Mach 3 Phantom
At 10:13 AM 10/3/95, John Burtenshaw wrote:
>Hi All
>
>employed by Egypt at the time. The camo was typical Israeli Air Force with
>Stars and Bars where the Star of David would be. Anyone know what happened
>to this project and if there was any RAM added to it.
>
>Regards
>
>John
>
Stars and Bars? This was a johnnyreb crate?
------------------------------
From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:30:15 -0500
Subject: Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd)
At 3:59 AM 10/3/95, MegaZone wrote:
>Once upon a time Steve Schaper shaped the electrons to say...
>>This is nonsense. The internet is a DARPA project. Of _course_ there are
>>connections!
>
>*WAS* an ARPA project. Remember, it started as ARPAnet.
>
>But *was* is the operative word.
Yes, but the conversion is by no means complete.
------------------------------
From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:34:41 -0500
Subject: Re: ATFs
At 3:39 PM 10/2/95, Terry Colvin wrote:
>Paul,
>The YF-22A, YF-23,and YF-23A were the prototypes for the Air Forces'
>Advanced Technology Aircraft (ATF) fighter planes. The YF-22 was built by
>Lockheed and the YF-23s were built by Northrop. The YF-22 was chosen by
>the Air Force as the next generation fighter (F-22).
>
>I'm not familiar with the photos mentioned. Some of the WEB sites that
>carry aircarft pics will probably have general photos.
And, as I understand it, the YF-23 was faster and stealthier, but the YF-22
was in Senator Sam Nunn's district. . .
------------------------------
From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Groom Lake
Hmmph. To those who did suffer harm, yes, and those who apparently did not,
if and when they do in the future. But not yet. IMHO>
-Steve
------------------------------
From: "Louis K. Scheffer"
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:03:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Double Sonic Booms in LA
The double sonic booms in LA were not the usual leading/ trailing edge
sonic booms. There were two booms about a *minute* apart, indicating two
vehicles. Presumably each one, if you looked closely enough, would have the
classic double boom structure. The aircraft were known to be mach 2-3 since
the network of siesmometers could track the boom as it moved across LA, not
from the structure of the booms themselves. Here is something I wrote at the
time:
- ---------
Here's an obscure reference to Aurora-
The Caltech alumni newspaper had an article about the siesmologist that
tracks these things. The basic idea is simple - a sonic boom is strong
enough to pick up on a siesmometer. Since these have good timing information
available (that's how they locate earthquakes), and cover sourthern California
in a dense network, it's straightforward to track hypersonic aircraft. They
have tracked the Shuttle, which has a known course, so they know it works, and
is quite accurate. You can also get a rough size.
This is what they found (from memory, so could be wrong):
2 aircraft, about a minute apart
Mach 2-3, 20,000-40,000 feet over LA
Vector pointing towards Tonopah
Size: smaller than a shuttle, bigger than a fighter (I think)
This, to me, is by far the most convincing evidence of such a plane.
Not mentioned in the article, but by implication: 20,000-40,000 feet over LA
is VERY busy airspace. There are lots of air traffic controllers concerned
with this area. Since they have not complained about military planes flying
through their airspace without notice, it must not show up on their radars.
(Although it might be interesting to re-examine the tapes once you know when
and where to look.)
Hope this helps,
Lou Scheffer
------------------------------
From: Clyde Prichard
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:21:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #443
>Or, this is what I have heard. Does NASA change the shuttle's
> orientation
>to keep the white side to the sun as much as possible? Seems to
>contradict the idea of keepint the radiators in the shade, since
> they are
>on "top" along with most of the white bits.
The shuttle cargo bay doors contain a radiator to shed heat generated
by the avionics and experiments. It has only a few minutes after
achieving orbit to open the bay doors or they will have to start
shutting down some of their systems. I'm not sure if they can shut
enough of them down to avoid opening the doors. I think I read
that if the doors can't be opened within 45 minutes then they must
return.
The doors are pointed toward earth most of the time because black
space is too cold, and thus awkward, but earth re-radiates and is
just about the perfect sink. Also, anything pointing outward will
have to endure the thermal shock of the sun. This is hard on
environmental and pointing systems. The space station, with its
long booms, will undergo all sorts of changes while passing between
sunrise and sunset. I understand that NASA is/had considered
active dampening.
I worked on the avionics side (Honeywell) of the shuttle & space
station but did get a chance to see some of the thermal and
structural analysis and found it fascinating. It's all public domain
and you can write to NASA for it (very technical stuff though).
You might find what you want on http but hurry, NASA is undergoing
its annual cutbacks...
Clyde Prichard
EMAIL: pricharc@agcs.com
Work: (602) 582 7741
------------------------------
From: Ralph the Wonder Llama
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:50:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SR-71 and F-177 pics...
Forgive me if anyone feels this post to be inapproriate or *gasp*
off-charter, but I ran across a few ASCII pictures that I'm sure
everyone will appreciate.
The URL for the site that I grabbed these from is:
http://www.infonet.net/showcase/mikewrld/ascii
This one's for you, Mary......
dMb,
MMMMb,
dMMMMMMb
MMMMMMMMb,
dMMMMMMMMMMb
dMMMXXX!!!!!!!!!b, ,,,,eeee**888
,dMM!!!!!!XXXXXXMMMMMMM8****""~~
,d!!!MMXXX888888888888888P
8MXXXXMM88888888888888WWWM
"Y8M8888888WWWMMMMMMMMMMb
""YMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb,
XMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb -MJR
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb,
dMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMbe,
,,eeMMMMMMMMMMMMMXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXMM
,,eMMMMMMMXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXXXXXXX8888!
_,dMMMMMMXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXXXX88888888888888WMb,
,dMMMMMXX!!m!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXXXXX8888888888888888888WWMMMM,
dMMMMX!!!!MMM!!!!!!XXXXXX888888888888888888888888WMMMMMMMMMMb d8P
dMMMMX!!!!MMM!XXXXX888888888888888888888888888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb d88"
MMMXX!!!XXMMMMm8888888888888888888888888WWWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb ,d88P"
MMX!!!XX888MMMMMm88888888888888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMbd8888P
MMMWW8888888888888888888WWWMMMMMMMMMP"' `"YMMMMMMMMMMMMMXXX!!!!X88888P
YMMMWWW888888888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMM"' YMMMMXXX!!!!!!!!XMMMMMMMM
`"YMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM8""' ,dMX!!XXXXX888888888888b
'''"""""""''' ,d!XXMM8888888888888888888
,dXX888MM888888888888WWMMMMMb
"'~""*MM88888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb
""" "YMMMMMMMb
"YMMMMMB
"'MP'
And for all the Nighthawk fans.....
`m ,'
`Mm ,|'
"MMm ,||'
"MMM,,|||'
,ee..__ .|3333333"MMM|||'3333333Mm __..ee,
,333333333ee..__ .||33333333"MM||'33333333MMm __..ee333333333,
Y33333333333333333|||3333|3333MM||3333M3333MMM33333333333333333P
'Y333333333333333||33333||3333333333MM33333MM333333333333333P'
'Y3333333333333||33333|||33333333MMM33333MM3333333333333P'
'Y33333333333||33333||||333333MMMM33333MM33333333333P'
'Y333333333||33333||`||3333MM"MM33333MM333333333P'
'Y3333333||@@@@@|| `||$$MM" MM@@@@@MM3333333P'
'Y33333||@@@@||| |$""$M MMM@@@@MM33333P'
'Y333|@@@@@||| .|$ $Mm MMM@@@@@M333P'
'Y3|$$$$$|||.|$" "$MmMMM$$$$$M3P'
'Y33333|||||$$$$$$MMMMM33333P'
'Y333||||$$$$$$$$MMMM333P' -MJR
'Y3||||$$$$$$$$MMMM3P'
'Y||$$$$|M$$$$MMP'
'Y$$$||MM$$$P'
'Y|||MMMP'
'Y|MP'
`'
,
. .-/,\-. ,
\ .-'//,M,\\`-. /
.-' .'/,MMM,\`. `-.
_.-"^\ / / \ \ /^"-._
/,MMMM".' / .-|-. \ '."MMMM,\
________,,,/_,MMMM"/ /.-" | "-.\ \"MMMM,_\,,,_________
-=========================='===^==^==^=====^==='=============================-
``^^^"""""""||\""""""""""""||\""""""""""""/||""""""""^^^``
|| ||_) ||
||, (| ,|| -MJR
db| d8b |db
YP Y8P YP
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Guslick / ^ \ IRC: HaveBlue
NAR #53962 TIP #112 ---(.)==<-.->==(.)--- Klein bottle for sale -
michaelg@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu SR-71 Blackbird Inquire within.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #445
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