From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #445 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 3 October 1995 Volume 05 : Number 445 In this issue: Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd) Mach 3 Phantom Groom Lake Re: CIA control over Internet? Exotic materials RAM paint transparent project Re: Groom Lake Re: beryllium Off topic Airbourne Observatory Re: Groom Lake Enhanced Explosives in Stealthy Munitions Re: Mach 3 Phantom Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd) Re: ATFs Re: Groom Lake Re: Double Sonic Booms in LA Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #443 SR-71 and F-177 pics... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 03:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd) Once upon a time Steve Schaper shaped the electrons to say... >This is nonsense. The internet is a DARPA project. Of _course_ there are >connections! *WAS* an ARPA project. Remember, it started as ARPAnet. But *was* is the operative word. - -- megazone@world.std.com 510-527-0944 MegaZone's Waste Of Time Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the body. ------------------------------ From: John Burtenshaw Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 10:13:02 -0100 Subject: Mach 3 Phantom Hi All I read (and saw a photo) some years ago that MDD had been given a contract by a middle-east country (no prizes for guessing which one) to uprate one of their airforce's F-4Es to Mach 3 capability. The photo showed a saddle tank fitted and increased air-intake size. The designation for this bird was the RF-4X and I guess it was going to be an answer to the Mig-25 recon planes employed by Egypt at the time. The camo was typical Israeli Air Force with Stars and Bars where the Star of David would be. Anyone know what happened to this project and if there was any RAM added to it. Regards John =========================================================================== John Burtenshaw Systems Administrator, The Computer Centre, Bournemouth University - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB U.K. Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 AX.25: g1hok@gb7bnm.#45.gbr.eu. AMPRnet: g1hok.ampr.org. (44.131.17.82) CompuServe: 100336,3113 =========================================================================== ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 5:32:40 EDT Subject: Groom Lake I found this at Reuters http://beta.yahoo.com/headlines/current/news/summary.html Do you suppose they're talking about our favoite place?? Radiation Report Due - A presidential advisory panel is expected to turn over to President Clinton today its recommendation that the government pay compensation to subjects of some secret Cold War radiation experiments, even if they suffered no apparant harm. The panel was appointed by Clinton 18 months ago to consider ethical issues linked to classified experiments. It found that in some cases the government's actions were so terrible that descendents of those who took part in radiation experiments should be compensated. - -- A hundred years from now, it will not matter what kind of house I live in, how much is in my bank account, or what kind of car I drive, but the world may be a different place because I was important in the life of a child. Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio ------------------------------ From: David Windle Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 10:50:25 Subject: Re: CIA control over Internet? >>Is the military-industrial complex trying to infiltrate the Internet? Off Charter Alert! That said..let's not forget that DARPA research opened up the possibility of the Net in the first instance. Any intelligence agency is bound to consider national security implications of the Net, so no surprises there. An astonishing amount of intelligence data is obtained from open sources anyway, but no-one seriously concludes from this that intel controls the media overall. You could just as easily argue that the Net is a logical area of interest to companies seeking to use mil hi-tech in peaceful ways. There are big bucks to made out here in cyberspace..I'm more worried that huge corporations are going to screw things up for us rather than any intel infiltration implicatons..on that unintentional alliteration I rest my case :) D ------------------------------ From: Andrew See Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 20:20:20 +1000 Subject: Exotic materials Just on the recent subject of Exotic materials being used in the latest stealth aircraft, I remember reading a while back that one stealth craft in development used some type of transparent metal alloy for certain components. Anyone know more about this? _--_|\ Andrew See asee@magna.com.au / \ \_.--._/<-Sydney, Australia-It doesn't get any better than this. v "doh" -Homer Simpson "it won't happen overnight, but it will happen." -Rachel Hunter. ------------------------------ From: "Joe Pialet" Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 07:13:07 +0100 Subject: RAM paint The recent questions about RAM paints/coatings for stealth planes looks like the beginning of a good discussion. There seem to be two major types of RAM materials - lossy magnetics and lossy dielectrics. Radar induces an oscillating magnetic field in lossy magnetics (iron ball, ferrites) which is dissipated as heat. These materials are more effective against older long wavelength radar. Radar induces an oscillating electric field in the lossy dielectrics (carbon. organic semiconductors) which is also dissipated as heat. These materials are more effective against modern microwave radar. The SR-71 used iron ball paint and the B1B used a ferrite loaded neoprene coating in some areas including the intakes. I know that the F117A used some conductive polymers so I would assume they use both lossy magntics and lossy dielectrics. I know Lockheed did a lot of research on organic semiconductors, such as polyaniline, at the Kelly Johnson Research Center. BTW - I have seen one report that the ECM equipment can vary the performance characteristics of the iron ball paint by varying tthe polarization of the particles. Has anyone heard of this? ------------------------------ From: JOHN Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 07:10:55 EDT Subject: transparent project > "asee@magna.com.au" "Andrew See" > > Just on the recent subject of Exotic materials being used in the latest > stealth aircraft, > I remember reading a while back that one stealth craft in development used > some type of transparent metal alloy for certain components. > > Anyone know more about this? Ben Rich makes reference to it in his book, seems the material was so transparent to radar, the engine showed up on radar like a beacon. One reason the engines for the F-117 & the B-2 are "buried" so deep and shrouded as it were, to prevent radar from ever "seeing" the engines. I assume the spinning blades act like a corner reflector... ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 07:42:36 EDT Subject: Re: Groom Lake It has more to do with Rochester and Niagara Falls, NY than it has to do with Groom Lake. Seems that one of the local Rochester Universities had been conducting tests for the GOV. But, they forgot to tell all their patients what was really going on. Several families found out and are in the process of suing. A little futher west the government sold used gold to the local jewelry community. The gold was contaminated by radiation and caused cancer and other problems from the rings that were made. Docters would tell patients that they were allergic to gold. That lasted until someone passed a radiation detector over his wifes hand and it lit up big time. (The detector not the hand :) ) Love Canal only affected the people that lived there. The rings were sold all over Niagara County and Erie County. No resolution on this yet. I'm just repeating what has been on the local news and in the local press.....so please no flames. Douglas J. Tiffany says: > > I found this at Reuters > > http://beta.yahoo.com/headlines/current/news/summary.html > > Do you suppose they're talking about our favoite place?? > > > Radiation Report Due - A presidential advisory panel is expected to turn > over to President Clinton today its recommendation that the government pay > compensation to subjects of some secret Cold War radiation experiments, > even if they suffered no apparant harm. The panel was appointed by Clinton > 18 months ago to consider ethical issues linked to classified > experiments. It found that in some cases the government's actions > were so terrible that descendents of those who took part in > radiation experiments should be compensated. > > > > > -- > > > > A hundred years from now, it will not matter > what kind of house I live in, how much is in > my bank account, or what kind of car I drive, > but the world may be a different place because > I was important in the life of a child. > > Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com > Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio > > ------------------------------ From: dosgood@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dean Osgood) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:19:46 -0500 Subject: Re: beryllium >In <9508278122.AA812223614@fhu.disa.mil>, "Terry Colvin" > >[[forwards from an unknown source]]: >> Has beryllium >been used to any great extent. I understand it was >a successful >material for missles, but what about planes? >You want to be VERY carefull with Be !! >The oxide is very nice and hard, stable and a great cancer source. Early >chemists touched cheek to identify ceramic parts from other materials, very >big problem after a few years. > >The soluble compounds cause their own disease berylliosis (sp). >The pure metal is ok, I think - but any corrosion and ..... > I'm not a materials fella, but I do know beryllium is very often used in > satellite structures. I understand that it is also used in missles,.... > is toxic and should not be worked or handled by the uninitiated. Never > taste it! > > Steve. We use beryllium here at NASA/GSFC Optics for spacecraft mirrors and structural parts. Its not so much in the handleing, its the DUST from machining/grinding that is QUICKLY FATAL. Of course for regular handeling we wear latex gloves, etc. The maching is VERY expensive, as it MUST be done by remote control in a dust tight enclosure. Dean Osgood ------------------------------ From: (SSG, ANTHONY, MAA, 565) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 7:47:14 PDT Subject: Off topic "Who is watching the Internet" is answered by "obviously the gov't intel types have an interest in a global comm. network". Keep on charter, please. ------------------------------ From: cogan@cave.arc.nasa.gov (Bruce Cogan) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:54:28 -0700 Subject: Airbourne Observatory In the back of Jay Miller's Skunkworks Book is a drawing of a proposed airbourne observatory for NASA. The plane has 6 engines and was to be used for inrfra red and other astronomy missions. Does any one have more information on this project? I assume it was cancelled and a C-141 was modified becoming the Kuipwer Airbourne Observatory. Was this a skunkworks proposal or just a Lockheed proposal. Any information would be apprecitated. Bruce Cogan KAO 1974 -1995 RIP ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Groom Lake No, they did most of that stuff at university and veteran's hospitals. Don't you guys ever read the papers? This was a major scandal about 2 years ago. Injecting folks with radioactive materials to see how the body processed it, injecting terminal patients to see what the effects on lifespan were, all kinds of creepy stuff, all done without telling people what was happening. Compared to this dusting folks with a little fallout was nothing.... Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Doug Tiffany wrote: > I found this at Reuters > > http://beta.yahoo.com/headlines/current/news/summary.html > > Do you suppose they're talking about our favoite place?? > > > Radiation Report Due - A presidential advisory panel is expected to turn > over to President Clinton today its recommendation that the government pay > compensation to subjects of some secret Cold War radiation experiments, > even if they suffered no apparant harm. The panel was appointed by Clinton > 18 months ago to consider ethical issues linked to classified > experiments. It found that in some cases the government's actions > were so terrible that descendents of those who took part in > radiation experiments should be compensated. > > > > > -- > > > > A hundred years from now, it will not matter > what kind of house I live in, how much is in > my bank account, or what kind of car I drive, > but the world may be a different place because > I was important in the life of a child. > > Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com > Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio > ------------------------------ From: RHOEFELM Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 09:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Enhanced Explosives in Stealthy Munitions Hi, What are some of the enhanced explosives used in stealthy munitions? Is there on-going research into enhanced chemical explosives? Who is doing it? Are they published in the literature? Have these explosives been used in materials forming work? TIA, Ralph S. Hoefelmeyer rhoefelm-cos3@kaman.com or Dire_Wolf 70436.511@compuserve.com Enjoy Nature ... from the top of the food chain. ------------------------------ From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:29:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Mach 3 Phantom At 10:13 AM 10/3/95, John Burtenshaw wrote: >Hi All > >employed by Egypt at the time. The camo was typical Israeli Air Force with >Stars and Bars where the Star of David would be. Anyone know what happened >to this project and if there was any RAM added to it. > >Regards > >John > Stars and Bars? This was a johnnyreb crate? ------------------------------ From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:30:15 -0500 Subject: Re: CIA control over Internet? (fwd) At 3:59 AM 10/3/95, MegaZone wrote: >Once upon a time Steve Schaper shaped the electrons to say... >>This is nonsense. The internet is a DARPA project. Of _course_ there are >>connections! > >*WAS* an ARPA project. Remember, it started as ARPAnet. > >But *was* is the operative word. Yes, but the conversion is by no means complete. ------------------------------ From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:34:41 -0500 Subject: Re: ATFs At 3:39 PM 10/2/95, Terry Colvin wrote: >Paul, >The YF-22A, YF-23,and YF-23A were the prototypes for the Air Forces' >Advanced Technology Aircraft (ATF) fighter planes. The YF-22 was built by >Lockheed and the YF-23s were built by Northrop. The YF-22 was chosen by >the Air Force as the next generation fighter (F-22). > >I'm not familiar with the photos mentioned. Some of the WEB sites that >carry aircarft pics will probably have general photos. And, as I understand it, the YF-23 was faster and stealthier, but the YF-22 was in Senator Sam Nunn's district. . . ------------------------------ From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:43:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Groom Lake Hmmph. To those who did suffer harm, yes, and those who apparently did not, if and when they do in the future. But not yet. IMHO> -Steve ------------------------------ From: "Louis K. Scheffer" Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:03:14 -0700 Subject: Re: Double Sonic Booms in LA The double sonic booms in LA were not the usual leading/ trailing edge sonic booms. There were two booms about a *minute* apart, indicating two vehicles. Presumably each one, if you looked closely enough, would have the classic double boom structure. The aircraft were known to be mach 2-3 since the network of siesmometers could track the boom as it moved across LA, not from the structure of the booms themselves. Here is something I wrote at the time: - --------- Here's an obscure reference to Aurora- The Caltech alumni newspaper had an article about the siesmologist that tracks these things. The basic idea is simple - a sonic boom is strong enough to pick up on a siesmometer. Since these have good timing information available (that's how they locate earthquakes), and cover sourthern California in a dense network, it's straightforward to track hypersonic aircraft. They have tracked the Shuttle, which has a known course, so they know it works, and is quite accurate. You can also get a rough size. This is what they found (from memory, so could be wrong): 2 aircraft, about a minute apart Mach 2-3, 20,000-40,000 feet over LA Vector pointing towards Tonopah Size: smaller than a shuttle, bigger than a fighter (I think) This, to me, is by far the most convincing evidence of such a plane. Not mentioned in the article, but by implication: 20,000-40,000 feet over LA is VERY busy airspace. There are lots of air traffic controllers concerned with this area. Since they have not complained about military planes flying through their airspace without notice, it must not show up on their radars. (Although it might be interesting to re-examine the tapes once you know when and where to look.) Hope this helps, Lou Scheffer ------------------------------ From: Clyde Prichard Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:21:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #443 >Or, this is what I have heard. Does NASA change the shuttle's > orientation >to keep the white side to the sun as much as possible? Seems to >contradict the idea of keepint the radiators in the shade, since > they are >on "top" along with most of the white bits. The shuttle cargo bay doors contain a radiator to shed heat generated by the avionics and experiments. It has only a few minutes after achieving orbit to open the bay doors or they will have to start shutting down some of their systems. I'm not sure if they can shut enough of them down to avoid opening the doors. I think I read that if the doors can't be opened within 45 minutes then they must return. The doors are pointed toward earth most of the time because black space is too cold, and thus awkward, but earth re-radiates and is just about the perfect sink. Also, anything pointing outward will have to endure the thermal shock of the sun. This is hard on environmental and pointing systems. The space station, with its long booms, will undergo all sorts of changes while passing between sunrise and sunset. I understand that NASA is/had considered active dampening. I worked on the avionics side (Honeywell) of the shuttle & space station but did get a chance to see some of the thermal and structural analysis and found it fascinating. It's all public domain and you can write to NASA for it (very technical stuff though). You might find what you want on http but hurry, NASA is undergoing its annual cutbacks... Clyde Prichard EMAIL: pricharc@agcs.com Work: (602) 582 7741 ------------------------------ From: Ralph the Wonder Llama Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:50:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SR-71 and F-177 pics... Forgive me if anyone feels this post to be inapproriate or *gasp* off-charter, but I ran across a few ASCII pictures that I'm sure everyone will appreciate. The URL for the site that I grabbed these from is: http://www.infonet.net/showcase/mikewrld/ascii This one's for you, Mary...... dMb, MMMMb, dMMMMMMb MMMMMMMMb, dMMMMMMMMMMb dMMMXXX!!!!!!!!!b, ,,,,eeee**888 ,dMM!!!!!!XXXXXXMMMMMMM8****""~~ ,d!!!MMXXX888888888888888P 8MXXXXMM88888888888888WWWM "Y8M8888888WWWMMMMMMMMMMb ""YMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb, XMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb -MJR MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb, dMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMbe, ,,eeMMMMMMMMMMMMMXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXMM ,,eMMMMMMMXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXXXXXXX8888! _,dMMMMMMXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXXXX88888888888888WMb, ,dMMMMMXX!!m!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XXXXXX8888888888888888888WWMMMM, dMMMMX!!!!MMM!!!!!!XXXXXX888888888888888888888888WMMMMMMMMMMb d8P dMMMMX!!!!MMM!XXXXX888888888888888888888888888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb d88" MMMXX!!!XXMMMMm8888888888888888888888888WWWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb ,d88P" MMX!!!XX888MMMMMm88888888888888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMbd8888P MMMWW8888888888888888888WWWMMMMMMMMMP"' `"YMMMMMMMMMMMMMXXX!!!!X88888P YMMMWWW888888888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMM"' YMMMMXXX!!!!!!!!XMMMMMMMM `"YMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM8""' ,dMX!!XXXXX888888888888b '''"""""""''' ,d!XXMM8888888888888888888 ,dXX888MM888888888888WWMMMMMb "'~""*MM88888WWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMb """ "YMMMMMMMb "YMMMMMB "'MP' And for all the Nighthawk fans..... `m ,' `Mm ,|' "MMm ,||' "MMM,,|||' ,ee..__ .|3333333"MMM|||'3333333Mm __..ee, ,333333333ee..__ .||33333333"MM||'33333333MMm __..ee333333333, Y33333333333333333|||3333|3333MM||3333M3333MMM33333333333333333P 'Y333333333333333||33333||3333333333MM33333MM333333333333333P' 'Y3333333333333||33333|||33333333MMM33333MM3333333333333P' 'Y33333333333||33333||||333333MMMM33333MM33333333333P' 'Y333333333||33333||`||3333MM"MM33333MM333333333P' 'Y3333333||@@@@@|| `||$$MM" MM@@@@@MM3333333P' 'Y33333||@@@@||| |$""$M MMM@@@@MM33333P' 'Y333|@@@@@||| .|$ $Mm MMM@@@@@M333P' 'Y3|$$$$$|||.|$" "$MmMMM$$$$$M3P' 'Y33333|||||$$$$$$MMMMM33333P' 'Y333||||$$$$$$$$MMMM333P' -MJR 'Y3||||$$$$$$$$MMMM3P' 'Y||$$$$|M$$$$MMP' 'Y$$$||MM$$$P' 'Y|||MMMP' 'Y|MP' `' , . .-/,\-. , \ .-'//,M,\\`-. / .-' .'/,MMM,\`. `-. _.-"^\ / / \ \ /^"-._ /,MMMM".' / .-|-. \ '."MMMM,\ ________,,,/_,MMMM"/ /.-" | "-.\ \"MMMM,_\,,,_________ -=========================='===^==^==^=====^==='=============================- ``^^^"""""""||\""""""""""""||\""""""""""""/||""""""""^^^`` || ||_) || ||, (| ,|| -MJR db| d8b |db YP Y8P YP - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Guslick / ^ \ IRC: HaveBlue NAR #53962 TIP #112 ---(.)==<-.->==(.)--- Klein bottle for sale - michaelg@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu SR-71 Blackbird Inquire within. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #445 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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