From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #465 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 17 October 1995 Volume 05 : Number 465 In this issue: Re: Stealth carriers 10/17/95 N.Y. Times Re: info needed-special purpose equipment AW&ST, October 16, 1995 Re: Stealth carriers Re: Akula subs Palmdale and surroundings giude Re: *** PRINTED: Palmdale and surroundings giude Re: Rocket torpedo re: Palmdale and surroundings giude is the FYDP available yet? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Burtenshaw Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:10:56 -0100 Subject: Re: Stealth carriers At 19:43 16/10/95 -0700, you wrote: > >On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, George Allegrezza 12-Oct-1995 1534 wrote: > >> amraam@netcom.com (Robin J. Lee) wrote: >> >> >Now *that* would be a challenge. One estimate of ship RCS puts a >> >94,000-ton aircraft carrier at between 3 - 10 MILLION square meters (on a >> >scale that puts the B-1B at 1 sq meter). >> >> Unless, of course, it was submersible. > >Very true, and it trains good pilots, too. The incentive to catch the >three-wire goes up considerably when missing the wires means smacking >into the sail. ;) Unless the aircraft use floats!! This reminds me of the experimental submarine K.13 that the Royal Navy was playing with just after WW1. It carried a seaplane in a hanger which was launched and recovered from the sea (if my memory serves me correctly). The sub sank when when someone opened the hanger doors when it was submerged and it is now laying on the sea bed just off the coast where I live. Very popular with scuba divers I hear. Regards John =========================================================================== John Burtenshaw Systems Administrator, The Computer Centre, Bournemouth University - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB U.K. Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 AX.25: g1hok@gb7bnm.#45.gbr.eu. AMPRnet: g1hok.ampr.org. (44.131.17.82) CompuServe: 100336.3113@compuserve.com =========================================================================== ------------------------------ From: dosgood@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dean Osgood) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:18:13 +0027 Subject: 10/17/95 N.Y. Times FYI: Todays N.Y. Times science section (c-4) has a short article about a co-operative high-altitude science mission useing a soviet M-55.States 6 planes were built and 5 still flying, and first observed in 1982, 3,000lb payload to 67,000 ft., twin engine, twin tail. ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 10:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: info needed-special purpose equipment I can't help Paul with the hardware, but I must point out that I doubt he plans to overfly Area 51 :). To me it seems much more likely that he plans to establish an autonomous, remote surveillance station to oversee the activities at Groom Lake. The most likely place for this station would be Tikaboo Peak (where apparently a dug-in 'surveillance post' already existed, when the peak was visited the first time by Tom Mahood). The most challenging part, it seems, wouldn't be the legal problems, but the optical difficulties (at a range of approximately 26 miles to Groom Lake), which this project poses. I also wouldn't trust leaving valuable equipment at a relatively frequently visited site on a mountain, if it isn't extremely well camouflaged and hidden away -- opportunity makes thieves, as the Cammo Dudes must have noted when their signs and detectors became souvenirs. This is of course only speculation, and maybe Paul is working on an unsolicited proposal for a cheap Tier 2 replacement. :) - -- Andreas PS: Helendale and other sites are possible targets too, btw. - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 10:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AW&ST, October 16, 1995 WASHINGTON OUTLOOK, page 19: ============================ AIR-TO-AIR LASERS: Airborne lasers may become the preferred weapon to destroy long- and medium-range air-to-air-missiles. "Analyses say you almost need a zero time of flight weapon, [therefore] a lot of these defensive systems are looking at lasers to actively go after incoming missiles," Air Force Acquisition Deputy Lt. Gen. George Muellner says. "I don't see [other air-to- air missiles] as a terribly viable solution, unless the acceleration and max velocity of these things change appreciably" (see p. 36). A number of aerospace companies are exploring the use of derivative high-speed, short- range air-to-air missiles to attack the longer-range aerial weapons. If successful, U.S. fighters could continue pressing for high-probability-of kill shots, instead of turning away to try to outrun incoming enemy missiles. "It's a gleam in those contractor eyes," Muellner says. But citing an example, he adds, "If you're talking about using an AIM-9X to kill an AMRAAM, I think you'd have a very difficult time." JAST SNAGS NEW NAME, ADDITIONAL FUNDS: pages 20-21: =================================================== The JAST program received a new interim name: JSF for Joint Strike Fighter, and is no longer a technology demonstration program, but a full-fledged production fighter, intended to replace USMC AV-8B Harrier II, USN F/A-18 (which by then have replaced all remaining A-6 Intruders and F-14 Tomcats), and USAF F-16s (and maybe F-117s). The restructured program aims to start the EMD (Engineering and Manufacturing Development) phase in the second quarter of Fiscal 2001, which would run through 2008. The first flight of an EMD JSF would be in 2004, while the USAF, USMC and USN are all aiming at receiving their first operational (training) aircraft in 2007. The USAF and the USMC want to achieve IOC (Initial Operating Capability) in 2008, while the USN hopes for an even earlier IOC date. The USAF may use some or all of the 120 F-16As which are intended to go through a MLU (Mid-Life Update) program for F-16C attrition replacements, until they receive their JSF. The F-16A MLU aircraft were originally intended for export, but until now, none has been sold for $10 million, because an F-16C Block 50 aircraft sells for $20 million and has at least two times the operational life expectancy (8,000 hrs). The program received $450 million more funding through 2001, accumulating $3.5 billion for the Fiscal Years 1996 to 2001. Several dozen technology maturation programs, like conformal weapons development, were removed from the program (but not necessarily canceled). The article doesn't say if any X-32s will be built or if the first flying vehicle will be a JSF prototype. I suggest the designation F/A-24A for the JSF or however the program will be finally called. F-16 TESTBED TO EVALUATE ALL-ELECTRIC FLIGHT CONTROLS, page 21: =============================================================== The AFTI/F-16 (Advanced Fighter Technology Integration) demonstrator [NF-16A, USAF serial '75-0750'] will be used to test all electric actuated flight controls, without any hydraulic backup system, for the JSF program. PANEL'S REPORT BACKS NONLETHAL WEAPONS, pages 50-51: ==================================================== The article points out some of the new doctrines and weapons, needed or envisioned for OOTW (Operations Other Than War), like police work, peace keeping and peace enforcement. Besides hardening foam etc., C3I (Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence) as well as training, simulations and exercises/experiments of integrated systems are seen as necessary by the SNL (Sandia National Laboratories) and the Commission on Roles and Missions, who produced the report. B-2 RADAR BEGINS LOW-LEVEL TESTS, pages 55-56: ============================================== The very complex Hughes AN/APQ-181 electronically scanned phased array LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) radar of the B-2 is finally tested in the low-level flight regime, and the tests seem to go well. The radar, which can operate in 21 different modes, several of which are classified, had several software problems, and the the radar antennas and their 'radoms'/coverings provided a lot of problems, too. In a separate paragraph, under FILTER CENTER, it is stated that the first B-2 representing the Block 30 configuration is now beginning RCS (Radar Cross- Section) tests of the final LO (Low Observable) configuration. And of course the first part of the two-part Special Report on the "Missile Handicap", including the following articles, is of interest: U.S. INTENSIFIES EFFORTS TO MEET MISSILE THREAT, pages 36-39: ============================================================= TURNING IR MISSILE MAY BE OVERRATED, page 38: ============================================= LUFTWAFFE MIG PILOTS EFFECTIVE WITH ARCHER, page 39: ==================================================== RUSSIANS TESTING IMPROVED ARCHER, page 40: ========================================== CHEAPER MISSILE CHANGES PUSHED, page 42: ======================================== AIM-X, ASRAAM TESTS SET STAGE FOR SHOWDOWN, pages 43-45: ======================================================== BRITISH AEROSPACE PREPARES FOR GUIDED ASRAAM TESTS, pages 45-46: ================================================================ BOA, BOXOFFICE PROVIDE OPTIONS FOR AIM-9X DESIGN, pages 47-49: ============================================================== PHYTON CAPABLE, BUT NOT FOR U.S., page 49: ========================================== The following missiles are mentioned: * USA: - AIM-9M Sidewinder, current operational short-range IR-guided missile; - AIM-9M updates of seeker, guidance, relaxed stability or thrust vectoring, etc. as an AIM-9X replacement; - AIM-9R, Have Thrust (ARPA), TopHat (?), Boxoffice (USAF/Raytheon), Boa (USN/NAWC, China Lake) projects and prototypes for more range, 1986-1991; - Boxoffice 2 (USAF) prototype for 60 deg. off-boresight demonstration, thrust vectoring, 1994; - AIM-9X (USAF/USN) project with 90 deg. off-boresight, starring focal plane array seeker for better IRCCM (Infrared Counter countermeassures), thrust vectoring, competition between Hughes and Raytheon (seekers and guidance) and Boa and Boxoffice (airframe), started in 1994, EMD award planned for January 1997, IOC expected in 2002/03, intended to utilize existing AIM-9M Sidewinder motors and warheads; * UK (originally International/Europe-US): - BAe ASRAAM, MOU signed in 1980, first guided launch 1995/96, IOC planned for 1998, a modified version is a possible candidate for AIM-9X, has 60-90 deg. off-boresight, focal plane array seeker (for better IRCCM), relaxed stability; * Israel: - Rafael Phyton 4, 90 deg. off-boresight, scanning seeker, relaxed stability, IOC 1993/94, available for export with helmet sight, best short-range air-to-air IR missile operational today; * Russia: - Vympel R-73 (AA-11 'Archer'), also available for export as R-73E, IOC 1985 with helmet sight, up to 60 deg. off-boresight, scanning seeker, thrust vectoring, backwards launch possible; - Vympel R-73M, test flights 1995, 90-deg. off-boresight, scanning seeker, thrust vectoring, backwards launch possible, improved IRCCM; And finally on the last page: EDITORIALS -- TEST SR-71 HEAD-ON AGAINST DRONES, page 66: ========================================================= "U.S. Air Force pilots are flying the SR-71 again, and attention should be focused on what to do with the Mach 3 reconnaissance aircraft now that one crew and airplane are mission capable. The SR-71 should be part of joint-service tactical exercises, both to demonstrate its capabilities in this area to field commanders and to uncover flaws in organizational structure and technical systems. The aircraft also should be kept active to maintain pressure on nascent reconnaissance drone programs and other surveillance activities that purport to replace the SR-71's capabilities. The SR-71 is a demanding benchmark that these expensive development programs should have to beat to justify their existence. Without pressure, they could deteriorate into the exorbitant fiascoes of the last decade that set back U.S. aerial reconnaissance capability and led to the SR-71's revival. The old way of assigning the SR-71 was too remote from the field commander, and that is why the aircraft should be part of field exercises under local command. The SR-71 now has been equipped with a data link for quick imagery return, but there probably are many bugs to be worked out. Commanders need to understand the values and limitations of a 2,000-mph. non-loitering intelligence vacuum cleaner and how to assign missions to it. Further, the SR-71 group should devise tactics to serve its new role better. These are best done with actual operations, not paper studies. The SR-71 also should fly in exercises that use Teledyne Ryan's Tier 2+ and Lockheed/Boeing's Tier 3- drones now under development, and the Lockheed U-2. Comparisons should be made on how easy each one is to task and retask, the difficulty of recovering and distributing data, the quality of data, coverage and the data collection rate, survivability and cost. A useful practical test would be to compare responses of SR-71 and other systems when called in by a commander for reconnaissance on a defended hot spot. Such comparisons are indispensable to determining whether the SR-71 will remain a valuable resource or whether its reconnaissance career is over." [It seems to me, that the editor doesn't know much about the SR-71 and her requirements/abilities. The SR will always be a Strategic Reconnaissance asset -- and will never become a Tactical system. TR-71? NOT!] - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: freeman@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:09:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Stealth carriers >>> Unless, of course, it was submersible. >The incentive to catch the three-wire goes up considerably when missing the >the wires means smacking into the sail. ;) But because water is so much denser than air, final approach may be accomplished at a sufficiently low speed to permit adequate manuvering and minimize damage in the event of collision... :) ------------------------------ From: ahanley@banyan.usace.mil Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 9:09:55 ÿÿÿ Subject: Re: Akula subs The scary thing about the AKULA was that the first ones were built BEFORE the Soviets got the Toshiba technology, and they were already very, very quiet. There was quite a worry about what would happen when the later boats had the benefit of the technology. Also, according to other publications, the AKULAS have little or no MAD signature, because of some of the materials used in their construction and the way they operate--scary stuff. Art Hanley If you asked my employers whether they had anything to do with the above, if it represented their views or if they even knew about it, they'd say, "No", and they'd be telling the truth. ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 12:37:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Palmdale and surroundings giude Because of the continuing interest, here are some directions to the LMSW (Lockheed Martin Skunk Works), the Lockheed Employees Store, the Blackbird Airpark, Edwards AFB with the Air Force Flight Test Center (AFFTC) Museum and the NASA Dryden Flight Research Center (DFRC), Mojave, and, last but not least, the Wing And A Prayer pub in Lancaster. The Skunk Works Employees Shop is located near the Lockheed/Air Force Plant 42 in Palmdale. If you are on Highway 14, use the exit to the Palmdale Municipal Airport, Avenue P. You will cross Sierra Hwy. and some train tracks, from where you can see the very prominent LADC building complex on your left. Take Lockheed Way left on the next traffic light. Just before the gate to the LADC facility, you find a building on your right, which says "Lockheed Credit Union", but the Employees Shop is in there too (to the right). If you just walk into it, they don't ask for an ID, and you can get all sorts of merchandise with Skunk Works and Lockheed logos on them -- from skunky t-shirts to Lockheed license plate frames. There are many magazines, books, models and interesting and cheap Lockheed videos available too. It is operated by the Lockheed Employees Recreation Center, and as far as I know, open to the public, hardly ever known to shoot non-employee shoppers. :) You can walk/drive around the perimeter of the plant, and even make photos of the two static displays inside, but I doubt they give tours. The aircraft are: - Lockheed P-80/F-80 Shooting Star, painted grey, identity unknown; - Lockheed F-117A full-scale mock-up (or RCS test model), marked as '785'; I don't have enough information for the best spotter points, but a map of Palmdale's airport and USAF Plant 42 can be found (together with a trip report to Palmdale) at Paul McGinnis' web page at: http://www.portal.com/~trader/gav.html The Blackbird Airpark, operated by volunteers from the Air Force Flight Test Center Museum at Edwards AFB, is just two traffic lights further on Avenue P, also on the left (25th Street East). It now has the following exhibits (as Summer 1995): - Lockheed A-12, article "121", serial "60-6924", on loan to the AFFTCM; - Lockheed SR-71A, article "2024", serial "64-17973", on loan to Det. 1, ASC, USAF Plant 42; - Lockheed D-21, article "525", on loan from NASA DFRC -- soon to be replaced by article "537", directly from AMARC; - a Pratt & Whitney J58-P2 (JT11D-20) engine; - a Buick V-8 start car; - a Blackbird wind tunnel model with A-12, YF-12 and SR-71 nose sections; The main part of the Museum is located at the Edwards AFB, consisting of an outdoor facility, an indoor facility, several aircraft on poles around the base, and some 'storage sites'. You can attend a public tour (no photographs on the flight line) and apparently also a dedicated photo tour. All tours are free. NASA's DFRC also has some outdoor exhibits, and a (very informative) tour, where photos are allowed. The tour is also free, but you need to make reservations. The 90 minute tours are Monday through Friday, (except holidays and Space Shuttle landings) at 10:15 a.m and 1:15 p.m. They also have a nice gift shop, and if you are lucky, you can even meet Mary Shafer. :) The Edwards museums inventory (as of Summer 1994): Edwards AFB, Airpark (AFFTC Museum): ==================================== - Boeing B-52D Stratofortress, serial "56-0585", marked "585"/"60585"; - Republic F-84F Thunderstreak, serial "51-9350", marked "FS 350"/"19350"; - Lockheed F-104A Starfighter, serial "56-0790", marked "NASA 820"/"N820NA"; - General Dynamics F-111A, serial "63-9766", marked "39766", 1st built/flown; - Sikorsky H-19A Chickasaw, serial "51-3894", marked "13894"/"WhirlOway", H-19D-SI, (later UH-19D); - North American T-28B Trojan, BuNo "137702", Army Flight Test; - North American CT-39A, serial "60-3505", marked "03505"; - Gloster Meteor NF.11; no serial, modified to Meteor TT.20, RAF 'WD592', was registered 'N94749', still in TT.20 configuration; Edwards AFB, on poles, all over the base: ========================================= - North American F-86F Sabre, serial "52-5241"; - Lockheed F-104A Starfighter, serial "56-0801"; - Lockheed NF-104A Starfighter, serial "56-0760", marked "NF-760"/"0-60760", constructed from the two surviving NF-104As "56-0760" and "56-0650"; - Bell P-59B Airacomet, serial "44-22633", marked "422633", ex "Reluctant Robot" - Lockheed T-33A, serial "52-9846", marked "0-29846"; - Northrop T-38A Talon, serial "61-0810", T-38A-40-NO, c/n N.5176; Edwards AFB, fenced-in storage area of the museum (north): ========================================================== - LTV F-8 Crusader, BuNo ?, painted white, version ?, derelict; - Douglas EF-10B Skyknight, BuNo "125850 ", marked "5850"/"MARINES", AMARC "FD001", ex F-3D, derelict, (now under restoration ?); - Northrop F-89D Scorpion, serial "52-1959", marked "159"/"0-32496", ex Aberdeen target, derelict; - Piasecki/Vertol H-21C Workhorse, serial "52-8623", on loan from USDA; - Sikorsky VH-34C Choctaw, serial "57-1726", ex presidential; - Sikorsky UH-34G Choctaw, serial "53-4477", marked "34477"/"U.S. ARMY", originally H-34A-SI, on loan from USDA, (now under restoration ?); - Piasecki/Vertol HUP-2 Retriever, BuNo "130059", marked "UP"/"130059", (aka UH-25B Mule); - Martin Marietta MMC-845 reconnaissance drone, serial "70-1454" ?, marked "01454", "Compass Dwell" program; - Teledyne Ryan BQM-34 Firebee, marked "MSR 31"/"NAVY", white; - Teledyne Ryan BQM-34 Firebee, blue-grey; - Piper PA-48, marked AMARC "AG 001", serial supposedly "48-3501002" ?, ex P-51D, only 2 built; - AGM-131 SRAM II mockups/drop models, about 20 (?), used in B-1 tests; - B-1 (drop) model, white, maybe 1:3 ? - B-1 cockpit module, brown camouflaged, recovered from the crash-site of the second B-1A, serial "74-0159" (crashed 08/29/1984); - B-2 model, black, maybe 1:5 ?, derelict; They also had several jet and rocket engines including: - J33, J35, J47, J57, J58, J75, J79, J85, YJ93, YF101, T31, XLR-8, XLR-11, XLR-99, LR-121; - and Atlas missile (chambers only), Titan missile, and several crates and boxes, including one big, black, triangular shaped, faceted crate. Edwards AFB, fenced-in area near flightline (south): ==================================================== - LTV YA-7D Corsair II, serial "67-14583", 2nd A-7D, DIGITAC aircraft; - Douglas TB-26B Invader, serial "44-34165", marked "Calspan", ex A-26B, registered "N9146H", used by Calspan as flying simulator; - McDonnell Douglas F-4C Phantom II, serial "63-7407", 1st production F-4C; Edwards AFB, flightline: ======================== - Lockheed SR-71A; article "2006", serial "64-17955", marked "17955", nicknamed "The Contractor's Bird"; - Douglas C-53 Skytrain, serial "41-20093", marked "120093", now under restoration (?); - Lockheed C-141A Starlifter, serial "61-2779", marked "12779", c/n 6005, modified to ARTB (Advanced Radar TestBed), ex "Into the Wind", under restoration; Other aircraft (as of May 1995): ================================ - Douglas A-3D Skywarrior, es barrier tests, stored; - Scaled Composites AT3, (Advanced Technology Tactical Transport); 62% proof of concept vehicle, under restoration; - Boeing B-47B Stratojet, derelict at photo range; - Martin B-57B, serial "52-1576", marked "NASA 809", under restoration; - DeHavilland Canada C-7B Caribou, ex US Army 'Golden Knights' display team, stored; - Fairchild C-119B Flying Boxcar, ex fire bomber, on loan from USDA, stored; - Fairchild C-123 Provider, on loan from USDA, stored; - Lockheed C-140A JetStar, last USAF C-140 to fly, under restoration; - Sikorsky CH-3E Jolly Green Giant, lowest flight hours of any USAF CH-3, stored; - Lockheed EF-80A Shooting Star, transcontinental record holder, under restoration (at a different location); - General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16B Fighting Falcon, first two seater, under restoration; - Northrop F-20 Tigershark marketing mockup, stored; - North American F-100A Super Sabre, serial "52-5760", 5th F-100A, derelict; - North American F-100A Super Sabre, stored at Mojave airport; - McDonnell F-101B Voodoo, under restoration; - Republic F-105 Thunderchief, under restoration; - Convair NB-58A Hustler, nicknamed "Snoopy", used for ASG-18 tests in connection with AIM-47 and YF-12A, derelict on range; - General Dynamics NF-111A, serial "63-9778", marked "NASA"/"AFTI"/39778", modified and used for AFTI/TACT/MAW, under restoration; - Rutan 354 Vari-Eze, foundation loan, stored; - LTV RF-8G Crusader, ex X-31 chase aircraft, stored; - Lockheed T-33A, under restoration; - Fairchild T-46A, serial "84-0492", 1st prototype, stored; - Convair TF-102A Delta Dagger, ex Edwards test aircraft, stored at a different location; - DeHavilland Canada U-6A Beaver, ex Test Pilot School support aircraft, under restoration; - Beech UC-45J Expeditor, ex SNB-2 Navigator, under restoration; - Northrop X-21A, serial "55-0408", ex Douglas WB-66D, derelict target; - Northrop X-21A, serial "55-0410", ex Douglas WB-66D, derelict target; - Convair XF-81, serial "44-91000", derelict, stored; - Convair XF-81, serial "44-91001", derelict, stored; - LTV YA-7F Corsair II Plus, serial "71-0344", ex A-7D, first of two YA-7F conversions, under restoration; - Fairchild YA-10B Thunderbolt II, serial "71-1369", first YA-10A, only two- seat conversion of A-10, under restoration; - McDonnell Douglas YF-4E Phantom II, serial "65-0713", ex F-4D-28-MC, under restoration; - Lockheed YF-94A Starfire, serial "48-0373", ex TF-80C-1-LO, ex ETF-80, ex ET-33A, under restoration; - Bensen X-25B, gyro-chute DDV test (?), stored; Future acquisitions include: ============================ - Cessna NA-37B Dragonfly, serial "70-1310", currently at Edwards AFB, CA; - Northrop YA-9A, serial "71-1367" or "71-1368, currently at Castle AFB, CA; - Rockwell B-1A, serial "74-0160", 3rd aircraft, currently at Lowry AFB, CO; Edwards AFB, NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, on poles: ============================================================ - Bell X-1E, serial "46-0063", marked "X-1E"/"6063", ex X-1 #2; - North American X-15A mockup, marked "3"/"66672", mockup represents 3rd X-15 "56-6672"; Edwards AFB, NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, outside display: =================================================================== - LTV F-8C Crusader, BuNo "145546", marked "NASA 802", DFBW aircraft, (Digital Fly-By-Wire); - LTV TF-8A Crusader, BuNo "141353", marked "NASA 810", SCW aircraft, (Super Critical Wing); - Northrop HL-10, marked "NASA 804"/"N804NA", c/n "NLB 102"; Edwards AFB, NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, fenced-in area: ================================================================== - McDonnell Douglas F-15A Eagle, serial "71-0287", "NASA 835", HIDEC aircraft, (Highly Integrated Digital Engine Control), no engines, stored; - Northrop YF-23, serial "87-0801", marked "ATF"/"YF-23", no engines, stored; - Lockheed F-104G Starfighter, marked "NASA 826"/"N826NA", ex GAF/Luftwaffe "26+64", no engine (?), stored; - Grumman X-29A, serial "82-0049", marked "NASA 049", no engine, stored; - Bell LLTV (Lunar Landing Training Vehicle), LLTV-A2, ex LLRV #2 or LLTV-B3; Another interesting place, to the North-West of Edwards AFB, is the small town of Mojave. At their airport you can find an aircraft museum which flys and restores vintage aircraft (I don't know their exact name, though), and the Civil Test Flight Center. Aviation companies like Rutan's Scaled Composites, as well as facilities of companies which use military aircraft (like F-100, T-33, F-4, DC-130, etc.) for civil and military testing, are located at this desert airport. A lot of civil airliners are stored there too. Mojave airport (Civil Test Flight Center, static display): ========================================================== - McDonnell Douglas F-4D (?) Phantom II, marked "WA"/"414" on tail, "741" inside wheel well, (this could be one of the following aircraft: F-4D-29-MC "65-0714" or F-4D-31-MC "66-7714" or F-4D-32-MC "66-8714" or F-4C-15-MC "63-7414" or EF-4C-23-MC "64-0741", ex F-4C-23-MC; The "Wing And A Prayer" is located at the corner of 90th Street East and Avenue J, which is 6 miles North from Avenue P. Be sure you go East, and not West, because the streets are numbered the same in both directions (as we discovered). :) The addresses and telephone numbers are: LERC Employees Store 1011 Lockheed Way Unit 12 Palmdale, CA 93599 Tel: (805) 572-2201 Blackbird Airpark 25th Street East Palmdale, CA 93599 Doug Nelson, Edwards AFB Flight Test Museum: (805) 277-8050 Air Force Flight Test Museum 95 ABW/MU 1 S. Rosamond Blvd. Edward AFB, CA 93524-1032 Doug Nelson: (805) 277-8050 The facility is at: Building 7211 1100 Kincheloe Edwards AFB Open: Tuesday - Saturday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. (closed Monday, Sunday, holidays) Tours: Tuesday - Saturday, 10:00 a.m. (except Monday, Sunday, holidays) Tours: (805) 277-3510 Dryden Flight Research Center Tour Coordinator TRLR 42, P.O. Box 273 Edwards, CA 93523 Tours: Monday - Friday, 10:15 a.m. and 1:15 p.m. (except holidays, shuttles) Tours: (805) 258-3446 or : (805) 258-3449 or : (805) 258-3460 Wing And A Prayer 44423 90th Street East Lancaster, CA 93535 Open: Monday - Saturday, hours (?) Tel: (805) 946-2656 - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: "Joseph F. Donoghue" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:09:00 EST Subject: Re: *** PRINTED: Palmdale and surroundings giude According to Doug Nelson, curator of the Eddy Museum, they are also to get U-2A #56-6722, article 389, which is now at the March AFB museum. At the recent Roadrunner Reunion I heard that the F-117 on a pole at Lockheed is the original prototype which crashed due to pitch and roll channel swap. Don't have my books with me but would that make it really 785? Said to have been repaired by some Lockheed employees and (perhaps) retirees. Joe ------------------------------ From: ahanley@banyan.usace.mil Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 10:31:58 ÿÿÿ Subject: Re: Rocket torpedo What the ROOSEVELT was probably doing was practicing a tactic called EMCON (EMissions CONtrol). It involves minimizing any kind of electromagnietic transmission so as to make the ship harder to detect. In a full blown EMCON operation, even low power radios used on the flight deck are turned off and everything is done over wire or through direct voice or visual signals. It makes a ship on the open seas Very hard to find, if its position is not already known. There are reports that carriers have crossed the entire Pacific undetected under maximum EMCON (the KITTY HAWK had a reputation for being very good at this). Art Hanley Despite what you might want to Believe, none of any of the above Even remotely has anything to do With my employer. ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 10:44:22 PDT Subject: re: Palmdale and surroundings giude You forgot the ultimate nerd fashion statement that the LMSW employee store sells... genuine Skunk Works pocket protectors!! Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 10:46:31 PDT Subject: is the FYDP available yet? Just a quick request -- has anyone seen the FY 1996 edition of the Department of Defense "FYDP Program Structure" handbook? Has DTIC released this yet? Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #465 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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