From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #493 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 2 November 1995 Volume 05 : Number 493 In this issue: Aerogels Aerogel structures Re: Aerogels Re: Aerogel structures Aero-gels LTA Aerogel structures Re: Aerogel structures Off charter... Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #491 balloon design HAVE BLUE ENGINE TYPE HAVE_BLUE_ENGINES Re: HAVE_BLUE_ENGINES HAVE BLUE POWERPLANTS Re: HAVE BLUE ENGINE TYPE Re: HAVE BLUE ENGINE TYPE See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nick Barnes Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 09:27:37 +0000 Subject: Aerogels > What is aero-gel? As I understand it, aerogels are frozen foamed metal. They are very strong for their weight (and can be made as light as air). Nick Barnes, speaking for himself ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 04:01:23 PST Subject: Aerogel structures Aerogels are organics. The techno-slang for aerogel is "frozen smoke". They do indeed, look like smoke. Aerogels can be made that are lighter than air. The technology right now creates a fairly elastic material. The use for structures is still limited because the easy to make gels are just that, gels. They squiggle around like Jello. There are now offshoots that produce fairly rigid materials. These are a little more dense than the true aerogels, but still much lighter than current use materials. The hope is that aerogel composites can be developed to provided ultra low mass structures. The other big possiblity for aerogels is as thermal insulation. The coefficient of thermal conductivity for these materials is among (if not) the lowest known. Imagine something with better insulation than the Space Shuttle tiles, isn`t brittle, and can cover a transport sized aircraft with only a couple of kg`s of marterial. Aerogels definitely have a place in the world of hypersonics. The use of super-insulation where mass is a nit has some very real applications in superconductivity (read submarines) applications. If you have access to a college or university technical library you should be able to find currentstuff on aerogels. It`s a pretty hot topic right now. If you can get to the lab, you can make some. I knew an undergrad student in aerospace who wanted to enter one of the egg drop competitions we`re all familiar with. I suggested an aerogel structure. Don`t know what happened but it seemed like a shoe to me. Chuck ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 08:45:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Aerogels On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, Nick Barnes wrote: > > What is aero-gel? > > As I understand it, aerogels are frozen foamed metal. They are very > strong for their weight (and can be made as light as air). I would imagine the 'foaming' process could even use gases other than 'air', for even more exotic materials. Has anyone seen the new "ceremetal"s? They talk about 'baking' ceramic with aluminum metal, creating an amalgam that is very light, but able to serve as a functional armor plating, withstanding a number of projectiles. (see the Discovery Channel). ...changing gears... There was a neat segment on Beyond2000 about a Copter-Cam recently, going for a few hundred (500) to a few thousand. I was intrigued to hear that the first helicopter shots in commercial film were in Michael Crichton's "Satan Bug" movie, an old cult favorite of mine. They're taking about the RPV taking over the 'traffic watch copters', and News copters, currently manned, letting them get closer to the action, etc. Interesting. regards, ________ BaDge ------------------------------ From: "Joe Pialet" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 95 10:26:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Aerogel structures >Aerogels are organics. The techno-slang for aerogel is >"frozen smoke". They do indeed, look like smoke. Aerogels can be made that >are lighter than air. The technology right now creates a fairly elastic material. >Chuck A small correction. Aerogels can be made from inorganic materials. The materials are a network which are mostly "air". They can be almost as light as air but it is not "lighter than air". ------------------------------ From: "Ralph S. Hoefelmeyer" Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 08:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aero-gels Hi, We have posts saying aero-gels are organics and others saying its' foamed frozen metal. Which is correct? Both? Neither? I haven't been able to get to a library, otherwise ... Ralph rhoefelm-cos3@kaman.com 70436.511@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 06:54:40 PST Subject: LTA Aerogel structures Replace the nitrogen with inert helium and the resultant is bouyant at STP! The gels I saw had alchohols in them, so I assumed organic, but as always, there is a lot of stuff out there I`m not aware of. Chuck ------------------------------ From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 10:25:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Aerogel structures How well do they resist compression? Might make a good LAV filler for a Galileo-follow on. ------------------------------ From: "I am the NRA." Date: Wed, 1 Nov 95 10:26:44 PST Subject: Off charter... [I don't doubt that most LTA may be operated statically heavy. But they CAN be LTA when needed.... >Since we're on the subject of balloons, does anyone out there have have >any thoughts on why mixtures of Helium and Hydrogen are not used? No real benefit, IMO. >You should be able to get more lift this way. Not much. He only lifts about 14%(?) less that H2. (NOT half. Its the difference between each and air, not the relative weight of each....) >Below a certain concentration of hydrogen, the mixture would not burn like >the 100% hydrogen mixture of the Hindenburg did 100% H does not burn. 8)>> Needs some air. (O2...) >* It would be more difficult to contain the gas without leaks. No harder than either alone. >* I'm not sure how the mixture would respond in the cooler temperatures >of higher altitudes. Not significantly. Also most airships to date have been low altitude beasts. (I'll skip explanations unless asked,,,,) >* Mixing gases on the ground while filling the bag would be more complex >than just filling the bag with helium Yep and maintaining the mixture in the air would be hard and making sure that leaks stayed nonflmammable. regards dwp ------------------------------ From: Patrick Wiggins Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 12:40:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #491 Ok, so I've been lurking out here for months. Guess it's about time I try contributing for a change. I just hope I do it correctly. :-) On Tue, 31 Oct 1995 skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu wrote: > From: Wei-Jen Su > Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 20:52:31 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Suicide injection for spy pilots > > Sorry if I often anyone the following topic... > I heard that pilots for U-2 and SR-71 always have with them a > suicide injection just in case they were surround by enemies... It is true?? > And if it is true, Gary Power suppose to use when he was shoot > down in URSS but he didn't... It's my understanding that he did have just such an item along with him. I seem to remember that it was a poison tipped needle concealed in a silver dollar. As to why he didn't use it? Don't know that anyone knows. Self preservation? Clear skies! Patrick ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 95 13:24:03 PST Subject: balloon design Since we've been talking a lot about balloons lately, can anyone recommend a good engineering book on state-of-the-art balloon design? I've seen bits and pieces of design info in various places, but I haven't seen a comprehensive treatment of the subject. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Sokolowski" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 13:52:48 -0800 Subject: HAVE BLUE ENGINE TYPE HI! Does anyone know what type of engines the "HAVE BLUE" F-117A prototype used?? I heard engines from a T-38 were used but I'm not sure. Considering the thing was around 30ft long they couldn't have used anything too big. -thanks andy@reboot.com ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Sokolowski" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 15:38:48 -0800 Subject: HAVE_BLUE_ENGINES HI! Does anyone know what type of engines the "HAVE BLUE" F-117A prototype used?? I heard engines from a T-38 were used but I'm not sure. Considering the thing was around 30ft long they couldn't have used anything too big. -thanks andy@reboot.com ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:40:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: HAVE_BLUE_ENGINES On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, Andrew Sokolowski wrote: > HI! > Does anyone know what type of engines the "HAVE BLUE" F-117A prototype > used?? I heard engines from a T-38 were used but I'm not sure. Considering > the thing was around 30ft long they couldn't have used anything too big. > > -thanks andy@reboot.com I know the standard NightHawk engine is the GE F404-F1D1, so it was probably a General Electric engine of some kind. Hope this helps a bit. regards, ________ BaDge http://galen.med.virginia.edu/~baj7d http://galen.med.virginia.edu/~baj7d/BaDgeHLP.html ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Sokolowski" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 16:39:03 -0800 Subject: HAVE BLUE POWERPLANTS HI! Does anyone know what type of powerplants the "HAVE BLUE" F-117A prototype used?? I heard engines from a T-38 were used but I'm not sure. Considering the thing was around 30ft long they couldn't have used anything too big. -thanks andy@reboot.com ------------------------------ From: "Robin J. Lee" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:42:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: HAVE BLUE ENGINE TYPE On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, Andrew Sokolowski wrote: > Does anyone know what type of engines the "HAVE BLUE" F-117A prototype > used?? I heard engines from a T-38 were used but I'm not sure. Considering > the thing was around 30ft long they couldn't have used anything too big. The HAVE BLUE engines were a pair of General Electric J85-GE-4As, rated at 2,950 lbs. of thrust, pulled from a North American T-2B Buckeye in service with the Navy's training command. ____________________________________________________________________________ Robin J. Lee amraam@netcom.com Vulture's Row Worldwide Web Page URL: http://webcom.com/~amraam/ ------------------------------ From: Ralph the Wonder Llama Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 21:47:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: HAVE BLUE ENGINE TYPE >HI! > Does anyone know what type of engines the "HAVE BLUE" F-117A prototype >used?? I heard engines from a T-38 were used but I'm not sure. Considering >the thing was around 30ft long they couldn't have used anything too big. According to the book I have, the Have Blue prototypes used J85 engines, as used in the F-5 fighter (and probably the T-38 as well, since the two are so closely related). The J85 is a GE engine. Speaking of Have Blue, does anyone know if there are pictures of this aircraft anywhere on the net? Oddly, it seems to be more classified than the F-117 itself.... - - Michael michaelg@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #493 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).