From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #501 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 7 November 1995 Volume 05 : Number 501 In this issue: Whoosh in the night - 10/24/95 near WPAFB? Re: "no synonyms for aircraft." Toroidal propulsion Concorde food again... China Lake Toroidal propulsion Re: Concorde/ Nth class travel Re: Which is it ? Saudia Re: Toroidal propulsion Re: Whoosh in the night - 10/24/95 near WPAFB? Re M-12/D-21 Re: Secret West Va site - duh. Re: Toroidal propulsion Re: Which is it ? Re: Whoosh in the night - 10/24/95 near WPAFB? Re: AW&ST, October 30, 1995 Re: Re M-12/D-21 Re: Toroidal propulsion Re: Face redder than hot titanium Strange flights DarkStar Photo and Caption See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 95 6:22:06 EST Subject: Whoosh in the night - 10/24/95 near WPAFB? > > Those of you who are in the Dayton Ohio area, did any of you catch > any news pro/con about the following? Is this real or bogus? Larry, I live about an hour and a half NORTH of Dayton. I didn't hear anything (obviously) nor did I hear any reports on the matter. The Bosnian Peace Talks are going on down there. Is there any chance it was the sound of a foreign jet? > > Location: WPAFB - Dayton Ohio and areas to the east. > When: October 24, 1995 > Time: approx. 8 PM > Description: Unusual sounding aircraft takeoff out of WPAFB escorted by > 2 F-16's (planforms allegedly seen in the night sky). Flight path of the > trio after takeoff was east. The incident allegedly generated 80 police > reports as reported on local TV station. Sound was of rushing air through > a tube. Three minutes behind the party a large helicopter was heard to > pass over. Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio ------------------------------ From: TODD R CASPELL Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 04:21:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: "no synonyms for aircraft." Isnt The Al.Overcast the C-147? Do you guys have a Osprey flying around Seattle?I thought I saw a largeish plane over Boeing field that, well stopped. Verry suspicious flight characteristics eh? TR On Mon, 6 Nov 1995 darph900@ccmail.ca.boeing.com wrote: > How about "Aluminum overcast" for a 747. > > EVERYONE wants T R Caspell mr. Toads wild ride. Todd Royall Caspell RIDE LOTS Tord and sundry (expressed opinions not necessarily of my brain) ------------------------------ From: George Allegrezza 07-Nov-1995 0853 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 95 09:02:24 EST Subject: Toroidal propulsion Andrew Sokolowski wrote: >HI, > Could someone explain how toroidial propulsion works?? > I've heard this might be used in advanced aircraft. I sort of understand the > concept but a more technical insight would be greatly appreciated. Sure. Crew eats donuts (or bagels), thus gaining the energy required for those grueling JFK-LAX 767 missions. Seriously, what's toroidal propulsion? Do you mean some type of nuclear propulsion in which the reactor is a toroidal shape, or an MHD device? George George Allegrezza | Digital Equipment Corporation | From there to here, from here to there, Mobile Systems Business | Funny things are everywhere. Littleton MA USA | allegrezza@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com | -- Dr. Seuss ------------------------------ From: tullman.robert@ehccgate.sandoz.com Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 08:54:01 -0500 Subject: Concorde food again... >From: Mary Shafer >Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 10:58:54 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Re: Booms & such >I don't know about BA, but the food on Air France was almost worth the >extra cost...Pate de fois gras, lobster, truffles, champagne, >eau de framboise, edible 24-karet gold foil trim on the gateau, and so on. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Regards, >Mary Ouch! hurts my fillings... "...et, pour vous, Madame, the gold has been specially scraped from the canopy of an F-16...." (hmmmm would that be an F-16 canape?) Couldnt resist... Bob ______________________________________________________________ |tullman@sandoz.com | Robert H. Tullman, PhD |bobtull@planet.net | Drug Metabolism, Sandoz Pharmaceuticals |http://www.planet.net/bobtull NOTE THAT THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED ARE MINE AND DO NOT REFLECT SANDOZ COMPANY POLICY UNLESS SPECIFICALLY INDICATED AS SUCH ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 95 10:19:41 EST Subject: China Lake I've been told there is a facility at China Lake where I could get some aviation patches. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance!!! - -- A hundred years from now, it will not matter what kind of house I live in, how much is in my bank account, or what kind of car I drive, but the world may be a different place because I was important in the life of a child. Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio ------------------------------ From: Greg Fieser Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:30:58 -0600 Subject: Toroidal propulsion >HI, > Could someone explain how toroidial propulsion works?? > I've heard this might be used in advanced aircraft. I sort of understand the > concept but a more technical insight would be greatly appreciated. Isn't this the "external" or "inverted" nozzle concept, similar to the aerospike that Lockheed is proposing for the X-33? Greg Fieser ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:56:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Concorde/ Nth class travel Didn't the passengers set a 747 on fire cooking in cabin class going to Mecca, ending up with the loss of the aircraft and the death of many, if not all, the passengers? It seems to me I remember that as being the cause reported in Flight International. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Mon, 6 Nov 1995, Bernie Rosen wrote: > > --Boundary-14435809-0-0 > > >From John Regus > > "Hell, I'm surprised that in steerage their isn't more traditional folk > music and the stewardesses allowing the passengers to cook their own > native dishes that has the same rotting milk smell that their in-tow > brood reaks." > > A friend who crewed for World Airways told me all that, and more, would occur > on hajj flights (pilgrimage to Mecca). Not a pretty sight. > ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 7 Nov 95 9:13:38 ÿÿÿ Subject: Re: Which is it ? The Blackbird sources were two reports (rather old, seen years ago) that came out of Beale which mentioned the aircraft in passing, and Paul Crickmore's book. Given that Andreas' sources are more current and precise, I stand corrected. Art Hanley My employers disavow any knowledge of my actions. This message may self-destruct at a moment's notice. ------------------------------ From: apatton@vt.edu (Andrew Patton) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 18:14:25 GMT Subject: Saudia On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:56:46 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Didn't the passengers set a 747 on fire cooking in cabin class going to >Mecca, ending up with the loss of the aircraft and the death of many, if >not all, the passengers? It seems to me I remember that as being the cause >reported in Flight International. > >Regards, >Mary A man trying to make coffee or tea using a bunsen burner, caused a fire aboard a Saudia Lockheed L-1011 in the early 1980's. The plane had recently taken off and due to the fire, turned around and landed at Riyadh International Airport (the old one). The fire had created lots of smoke which had built up enough to cause the pilot and copilot to both enter unconsciousness after landing. When the passengers and rescue workers tried to open the passenger doors they discover that due to the wiring of the L-1011, the doors would not open if the engines were on, which they where. As the pilot and copilot were unconscious, they couldn not open the doors and all passengers died of asphyxiation. The wreckage of the aircraft was bulldozed of the runway and was visible the last time i was in Riyadh. I lived next to the airport for 2 years and saw the wreckage quite frequently. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew T. Patton WWW: http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/apatton Blacksburg Electronic VIllage (BEV) E-Mail: apatton@vt.edu Blacksburg, Virginia, USA IRC: ShockTM ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:38:42 -0800 Subject: Re: Toroidal propulsion >> Could someone explain how toroidial propulsion works?? >Sure. Crew eats donuts (or bagels), thus gaining the energy required >for those grueling JFK-LAX 767 missions. Ha! Or, one gets toroidal propulsion by throwing doughnuts. >Seriously, what's toroidal propulsion? Do you mean some type of nuclear >propulsion in which the reactor is a toroidal shape, or an MHD device? Yes, an MHD device like RPI's latest Air Spike stuff perhaps? Larry ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:34:12 -0800 Subject: Re: Whoosh in the night - 10/24/95 near WPAFB? > I live about an hour and a half NORTH of Dayton. I didn't > hear anything (obviously) nor did I hear any reports on the > matter. The Bosnian Peace Talks are going on down there. Is > there any chance it was the sound of a foreign jet? That's a good data point, that you hadn't heard any reports on the matter. However, as far as the Bosnian Peace Talks are concerned, we're talking October 24th, before the Peace Talks began. However, I'm just trying to check if anyone had also heard of reports. There were allegedly newspaper reports as well. If you have a second please check the old papers, if you can. Incident was allegedly Oct 24 at 8PM. So papers may have it in the Oct 25th or Oct 26th issues. Thanks, Larry ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:23:29 -0800 Subject: Re M-12/D-21 > I was looking at the Seattle Museum of Flight's M-12 with it's >drone and I noticed that the upper surfaces were bare aluminum. I was >wondering if this was done during restoration or was it done so during >test fligts the drone could be seen better? It seems to me that removing >the black paint would have adverse effects on the airframe at speed. Initially, at the beginning of the test program, all of the A-12s, YF-12As, D-21As and M-21s were unpainted except for black leading edges (the original A-12, in its early test flights, flew completely unpainted). As far as the Seattle Museum of Flight MD-21 exhibit is concerned, the aircraft (the M-21 aircraft to be more precise) was obtained several years before the D-21B was obtained. The original plan was to restore both the M-21 and D-21 to original unpainted bare titanium except for the black leading edges. The M was restored that way with much effort (I worked on the restoration in fact) made in removing the overall black paint that the M was painted with later in its life (both 940 and 941 were repainted overall black). There are many photos of 940 flying in the unpainted titanium with black leading edges scheme and some videos as well. There is also one short video clip of 941 taxiing painted in the overall black scheme (this clip is part of the Lockheed 50th Anniv. Video entitled "Kelly's Way" (I think this is correct)). Anyway, there was not a lot known about the D's before we received the D in Seattle. I say this because the original plan was to restore the D to natural titanium colors as well (as stated above). When we received the D, we suddenly realized that it would be impossible to restore the D to a D-21A configuration as the upgrade to D-21B status changed too much. We would have to leave the D in overall black. This then made us wonder how real a natural M with a black D on its back really was. We were told by several people who actually took part in the program that there may indeed have been flights in this configuration as on the video clip I mentioned above, 941 is painted overall black and the D is overall black as well. That video proves that D-21A's were indeed painted overall black as well as natural. In fact, at least one guy who was part of the program told me that he recalls at least one flight of a MD-21 configuration with that scheme (memories are fuzzy after all those years however). Anyway, in the Md-21 exhibit in Seattle, the M is natural on BOTH top and bottom with the black leading edges. The natural color also isn't aluminum it is titanium (no flame intended here). Larry ------------------------------ From: apatton@vt.edu (Andrew Patton) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 21:01:18 GMT Subject: Re: Secret West Va site - duh. On Fri, 3 Nov 1995 23:07:43 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Shoot, I failed to post the channel for this gem. > >It was Dateline NBC. > >Someone's sure to have the name of the Hotel, too, I just couldn't find >my file on it, nor did I hear more than 10 sec. of the promo. - all I >could manage was that 'air ball'. Sorry. > >regards, >________ >BaDge > > its the Greenspire in White Sulfer Springs WV. It about an hour ana half from where I live. Congrats on beating FSU, will meat you in two weeks. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew T. Patton WWW: http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/apatton Blacksburg Electronic VIllage (BEV) E-Mail: apatton@vt.edu Blacksburg, Virginia, USA IRC: ShockTM ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:49:45 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Toroidal propulsion On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 larry@ichips.intel.com wrote: > > >> Could someone explain how toroidial propulsion works?? > > Yes, an MHD device like RPI's latest Air Spike stuff perhaps? > > Larry Leik Myrabo is a name to look for. He wrote a book with Dean Ing called "The Future of Flight" (Baen 1985 ISBN 0-671-55941-9) outlining a variety of radical flight technologies. Promiment among them is a scheme for a range of disc-shaped SSTO vehicles propelled by a combination of external laser-initiated pulse-detonation-wave engines and a powerful MHD system. In the late 80`s and early 90`s there was some SDIO funding which was then stopped when high energy lasers ceased being such a high priority- the concept requires quite a large infrastructure of orbiting lasers. He subsequently revised his design concepts to use microwave beams as a power source. He is now based at Rensselaer Polytechnic in Troy, NY, has intellectual support from the Russian Academy of Sciences and financial support from the Space Studies Institute, Princeton, NJ. Apart from the book above, there are articles covering aspects of the concept in Popular Science Mar 93 p. 35, Popular Mechanics Apr 90 p. 21, Popular Mechanics Sep 95 pp. 44-5 and Aviation Week May 15 '95 pp. 66-7. There are also probably other articles that I haven't found. There may be ongoing black development and the things look a lot like flying saucers, Groom Lake etc blah blah blah rhubarb but Myrabo says himself that such vehicles are at least a generation off- and they do need an extensive and hard to conceal infrastructure of space or possibly Earth-based masers of very high power and accuracy. Hope that helps --Brett ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:21:45 -0800 Subject: Re: Which is it ? >The Blackbird sources were two reports (rather old, seen years ago) that came >out of Beale which mentioned the aircraft in passing, and Paul Crickmore's >book. Given that Andreas' sources are more current and precise, I stand >corrected. Actually, the old sources were correct also! That's what we called the M-21 back then, the M-12. Even guys who worked the program called it the M-12. The name may have actually been the M-21 back then too, but remember these programs are very classified and information on them comes out very slowly. We do know TODAY however that the official name is the M-21 or MD-21 for the pair, so we use that. It takes a very long time for the 'correct' (whatever that is) information to come out about this stuff. The fact that there are no official historians (that I know of) on black programs aides the errors that are made years later. Also, as in the case of TAGBOARD, there were attempts after the program was over to destroy all information about it. Black aircraft project history is not as black and white as some would like to make it. Larry ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:57:21 -0800 Subject: Re: Whoosh in the night - 10/24/95 near WPAFB? Brentley writes: >I'm in Columbus, Ohio (~45 miles east) and haven't heard a peep regarding >this from any of the usual news sources. OK thanks! A cautionary note! This is not aimed at Brentley, but at snowballing of a report that may be bogus to begin with. DO NOT BELIEVE this report that I filed! I am trying to investigate it further to see if the incident actually happened! I've already gotten my same report back through another network! C'mon guys! This is the kind of stuff that gives us all a bad name. So far, 2 people here who live somewhat close to the area have heard nothing about it. Don't jump to conclusions! Thanks again Brentley! Larry ------------------------------ From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 18:57:35 -0600 Subject: Re: AW&ST, October 30, 1995 At 5:00 PM 11/3/95, R. Lee Hawkins wrote: >In your message dated: Fri, 03 Nov 1995 12:04:53 you write: >>missile is predicatble, doesn't maneuver, carries no countermeasures and is > >Actually, ICBM's sometimes do carry countermeasures, in the form of >dummy RV's > >Cheers, >--Lee Such countermeasures are only good above the atmosphere. Once they hit atmosphere it is easy to tell them apart, and if you weight them to behave properly, then you might as well use a warhead. High energy lasers are pulsed at a high frequency to allow the plasma cloud generated at impact point to dissipate and allow the next pulse to get through. This creates an exlosion-like effect that tears the target structure apart. Oxygen-idodine, if that is what they are using, is probably fairly energetic. Hydrogen/flourine would certainly be so. ------------------------------ From: sschaper@pobox.com (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 19:03:30 -0600 Subject: Re: Re M-12/D-21 Are we talking about the piggy-back ramjet drone? I thought it didn't work, the turbulance crashed the craft. ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 20:26:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Toroidal propulsion Any one see the Beyond 2000 show where this team prototyped a LAV that was essentially a large spinning sphere of helium and a wrap-around body. Supposedly it takes advantage of the lift of spinning as well as being Light. Side 'jets' ?? for stearing. I was laughing so hard it was difficult to get the info down. They had this 1/5th scale prototype careening around the inside of a hanger. PS - see this homepage for some new, way-cool skunky stuff, just in. Kathryn and Andreas' Aviation Page http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ ...and turn to: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/aero.htm#new regards, ________ BaDge ------------------------------ From: The Cleaner Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:48:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Face redder than hot titanium First of all, thanks Larry for answering my question about the Seattle Muesum of flight's M-12. And after rereading my post I find to my horor that I did say that the plane had a bare aluminum finish. Since time began I've known that the SR's have been made from Titanium. Thats what happens when your brain runs off of bug zapper processing. (It only sparks to life when something hits it.) ___________ Marc Studer ___________________________________________ | " . . . The ground wins 100% | "In a Marc vs Twinkie engagement, of the time." - F-111 Pilot | the Marc wins 100% of the time." | ______________________________________ mstuder@spu.edu ___________ ------------------------------ From: chosa@chosa.win.net (Byron Weber) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 18:51:56 Subject: Strange flights As there have been a number of strange flights reported, although off topic, I thought I would add another. Friday, November 3, 1995 at about 11:00am pst, a friend was leaving his home in Montrose, CA when the deafing roar of a jet engine scared the hell out him. He immediately called me on his cellular to tell me , "..an F-16, or one those kind, (he doesnt know his aircraft) is flying over JPL." He said, "he was really high up and next thing he's really low, side slipping and stalling and scaring everybody when he pulls out. It was so loud I couldnt hear anything." I looked out my window toward JPL, about 3 miles, but didnt see anything. At lunch I went up the back way to a bluff overlooking the lab and ate my sandwich. Quiet. Nothing unusual. Anyone have a clue? I've seen JPL address here, anyone see anything? Byron ------------------------------ From: dpm@cs.purdue.edu (David Moffett) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 21:46:41 -0500 Subject: DarkStar Photo and Caption Found in ComputerWorld (November 6, 1995, Vol 29, No 45), Page 60 upper left hand corner (used without permission). - ----------------------- DarkStar takes off from workstation launchpad Engineers at Lockheed-Martin Corp, and The Boeing Co. designed the DarkStar military reconnaissance aircraft entirely on IBM RS/6000 Unix workstations. Doing all the design and simulation work on-line meant that no physical model was built and the usual year-plus of development time was reduced to just 10 months, the engineers said. The first air test of the $10 million, 15-ft unmanned craft, which has a stealth radar profile, is scheduled for December, "We did not do any mock-ups at all," said Bob Fischer, chief engineer at Lockheed-Martin's Skunk Works site in Palmdale, Calif. "That would have taken six months." - ----------------------- The picture looks like a simulated wind-tunnel test. In plan view, the aircraft is a white object that is roughly a box with a half circle mounted in front of it. From halfway back of the box to the rear are wings that come straight out and appear to have a traditional airfoil shape to them. From the center of the half circle is a probe of some kind sticking out further (?) forward. There is some rectangular box in the center of the square that looks like propulsion output space. The center section looks somewhat like the front of an SR-71. David Moffett (dpm@cs.purdue.edu) ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #501 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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