From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #507 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 11 November 1995 Volume 05 : Number 507 In this issue: Re: Which is it ? re: SR-71 Paint B-2 Flyover MAKING TURBULENCE OBSOLETE RE: The Oxcart Story turbulence/lasers Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #5 HL-20 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 02:44:19 PST Subject: Re: Which is it ? Yep, he picked up a model of the SR71 and held by its two tails.............. Chuck ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 21:54:00 -0500 Subject: re: SR-71 Paint > Subject: SR-71 Paint > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:49:15 -0500 MF> I have seen many pictures of SR-71s with blackboard chalk artwork on the > tails. Why spend so much money on special paint for the insignias if chalk > works? Just make drawing the insignias on the plane part of the preflight > set-up. I have wondered what happens to the chalk tail art after a Mach 3 flight. Maybe the heat "bakes" the chalk on the aircraft? I would think it didn't last very long so it had to be redone fairly often. The ones on display in museums probably were painted on because the plane isn't going anywhere. :) MF> BTW, would an SR-71 really need any marking to identify what country it > came from? Who else but us would fly such a sinister and exotic looking > plane? I can't think of anyone! - --Al-- - --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ Jay Miller's revised "Skunk Works" book coming soon!! ------------------------------ From: Robert.Herndon@Central.Sun.COM (Robert Herndon) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 10:30:24 -0700 Subject: B-2 Flyover On a local radio station this morning, a Col. Spetner (?) with the Air Force Academy's football coaching staff mentioned that tomorrow's festivities for the Air Force - Army foot game will include a B-2 flyover (here at the Air Force Academy at the north end of Colorado Springs). /r ------------------------------ From: Clyde Prichard Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 10:31:59 -0700 Subject: MAKING TURBULENCE OBSOLETE Anybody know where are they going with this? Isn't sensing 'turbulence-induced changes' on modern a/c 'too little, too late'? I would have thought that any measured state of turbulence would be obsolete within a second for anything but a hovering platform. Are they trying to null out the random (short term) stuff? That would give a better S/N and thus allow higher gains in the flight control algorithms. Are they planning on changing the wing shape locally to the sensor (i.e. distributed control)? That, if feasible, would give a very stable platform but programming each controller to react such that they don't buck each other would be tricky. One could optimize them for lift, speed, or stability. That would be very Skunky. - - Clyde - CLYDE PRICHARD EMAIL: pricharc@agcs.com - ------- include ----------- AW&ST November 6, 1995 INDUSTRY OUTLOOK, page 13: ========================== "MAKING TURBULENCE OBSOLETE: A Ballistic Missile Defense spinoff may take the bounce out of future flights. Miniature, lightweight thin-film sensor technology has been developed that can be embedded directly in aircraft composite structure. As envisioned, the autonomous, piezo-electric sensors would be adapted to sense turbulence-induced changes in aircraft attitudes and positioned at key locations in commercial and military transport airframes. Aircraft flight controls would be computer-adjusted to compensate, according to Hugh Murray, project leader for the Satellite Attack Warning Assessment and Flight Experiment at Los Alamos (N.M.) National Laboratory[.]" - ------- end include ----------- ------------------------------ From: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:46:00 EST Subject: RE: The Oxcart Story Forward item: 281 - ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes --------------------------- From: jfd4288@mvs at ._datafork Date: 11/10/95 12:20PM To: _jdonoghue at cclink Subject: NETMAIL: The Oxcart Story - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <<<<<< Attached TEXT item follows >>>>>> Text item: Body.822 I've read a copy of "The Oxcart Story," which has circulated online. Does anyone know when it was written and where it comes from? The only information in it is the name of the purported author, Thomas P. McIninch. In it, the author claims that on the first A-12 mission over North Vietnam, the aircraft was never detected by radar. Crickmore claims that it was, which caused consternation in Langley and Burbank, after all the effort at reducing RCS. Is Crickmore's information later and more accurate? The no detection story is repeated in Pace's "The Lockheed Skunk Works." Thanks, Paul Suhler I was out of the country when this thread came up or I'd have responded earlier. I taped a talk by Mele Vojvodich who was the pilot on the first A-12 mission over North Vietnam and I have transcribed the portion where he describes that mission. It sounds like Crickmore has it right. He talked to the pilots. I don't think McIninch did. Tom Pugh, ex Wing CO at Beale and Director of Flight Test at LM Skunk Works now, speaks of two OXCART Reports - "The one you have all seen and the real good one that is still classified". The following is quoted without permission. Joe <<<<<< Attached TEXT item follows >>>>>> Text item: Header.822 Received: from cclink.draper.com by ccgate; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 12:21:27 EST X-cclink-to: X-cclink-from: Received: from mvs.draper.com by surname.draper.com id aa03543; 10 Nov 95 12:20 EST Received: from MVS by MVS.draper.com (IBM MVS SMTP V3R1) with BSMTP id 0464; Fri, 10 Nov 95 12:20:53 EDT Received: by MVS.DRAPER.COM with NETMAIL; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 12:20:44 EST Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 12:20:00 EST From: "Joseph F. Donoghue" Subject: NETMAIL: The Oxcart Story To: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com <<<<<< Attached TEXT file follows >>>>>> File item: hanoi.txt 11/10/95 1:06P Excerpt From Talk By MGEN, USAF(ret) Mele Vojvodich At Roadrunners 1995 Reunion (Discussing the first A-12 mission over North Vietnam) ...You know, this is the first stealth aircraft ever built and it's harder than hell to detect. But, the Japanese were sitting at the end of the runway when I took off and there were other people sitting there too, called in our takeoff time. I hit the tanker 100 miles downstream. They had a Russian trawler sitting right under our refueling track. They"re saying "OK, he's leaving the tanker and he's heading for Hanoi or wherever he's going". So, when I made the turn there, they knew I was there. My panel lit up with ECM gear and I knew they were gonna have a launch. They started launching SAMs 90 miles away. I could see em coming up. They were passing on the control down the different battalions to try to knock me out of the sky. The only way they could ever get an SR (sic) was to shoot way out in front of us. Anyhow, many of them came up and you know, I'm not used to flying straight and level. I'm a fighter pilot and it's harder 'n hell for me to sit there, even at 85,000 feet and Mach 3.2 and some bastards shootin missiles at me. I had the biggest urge to want to make a hard turn and get the hell out of there. But, I remember Slater (Col. Hugh "Slip" Slater) said, "Now, just trust your ECM gear Mel, it's gonna work" and I'm sitting there saying "Yeah, I wonder why HE isn't here". Anyway, it's kind of shaking to look at these missiles coming up through about 50,000 feet in con. They fired 24 at a time, coming up like this. I could see em coming up and they went underneath the belly of the aircraft and I had to look through my view periscope and I could see em go behind me and they were up over 90,000 feet and they came down and tried to track and by that time they had burned out and they'd detonate behind the aircraft and had never even gotten close. ------------------------------ From: "I am the NRA." Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 10:31:35 PST Subject: turbulence/lasers >Anybody know where are they going with this? Sci-Am, September, alludes to this. >Isn't sensing 'turbulence-induced changes' on modern a/c >'too little, too late'? I would have thought that any >measured state of turbulence would be obsolete within >a second for anything but a hovering platform. My impression was of subsecond response timescales, with the wing/fuselage entirely tiled with small control surfaces. (or maybe just the chunks though to be needed.) >Are they trying to null out the random (short term) stuff? >That would give a better S/N and thus allow higher gains in >the flight control algorithms. Thats what i read it as... >Are they planning on changing the wing shape locally to >the sensor (i.e. distributed control)? Yep. >That, if feasible, would give a very stable platform They spoke more of drag reduction.... >but programming each controller to react such that they don't buck each other >would be tricky. ummmmm (Given that the whole thing looks implausibly complex to me...) it seems that should be solvable. >One could optimize them for lift, speed, or stability. They mentioned principly drag reduction (the article was in a civil a/c context). >That would be very Skunky. ummmmmm. LOTS more tons moved & fuel burnt in civil contexts..... >>"MAKING TURBULENCE OBSOLETE: A Ballistic Missile Defense spinoff may take >>the bounce out of future flights. Miniature, lightweight thin-film sensor >>technology has been developed that can be embedded directly in aircraft >>composite structure. As envisioned, the autonomous, piezo-electric sensors >>would be adapted to sense turbulence-induced changes in aircraft attitudes >>and positioned at key locations in commercial and military transport >>airframes. Aircraft flight controls would be computer-adjusted to compensate, =================================== ....iodine/oxygen laser.... (I was letting someone who KNEW answer, but since noone has...) Almost certainly chemical/combustion laser. Chemical fuels, "burnt" still have the highest energy/lb or /volume of any other system. If one has all the room in the world to mount power supplies (reactors) other lasers maybe. But if its gotta fly and be brute powerful... regards dwp ------------------------------ From: "Alun Whittaker" Date: 10 Nov 1995 11:57:56 -0800 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #5 Reply to: RE>Skunk Works Digest V5 #506 Daniel Thomson writes: > When the hell is Terry going to get the idea that this kind of > garbage doesn't belong here? A. Wasn't he legitimately following up the "Strange Whoosh in the Night at W-P AFB" postings which had already appeared here without any condemnation? B. Please let's not have another wave of "Terry's been naughty. Make him stop it mommy" messages. They don't come often. At the worst, they're a chuckle. At best, they challenge the obvious which it what the Skunk Works is all about. If you don't like'em, don't read em! ALUN WHITTAKER alun@ia-us.com ------------------------------ From: jagnow@al.weeg.uiowa.edu (Al Jagnow) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 16:54:05 -0600 Subject: HL-20 While cleaning up my office I came across the August 1992 issue (Vol 16 No. 8) of NASA Tech Briefs. It has an article on Langley Research Center and on p. 14 has a picture of the HL-20 - I guess you'd call it a lifting body - described on p.14 and 15 as "HL-20 Personnel Launch System. The HL-20 is Langley's candidate for a compact space vehicle to transport up to 10 astronauts and a small cargo to and from low-Earth orbit, allowing rapid, affordable manned access to space. The vehicle is intended to complement the shuttle and, as currently concieved, would be launched from an expendable booster and be capable of runway landings. With its wings folded, it could fit within the space shuttle's payload bay. Lacking the shuttle's main propulsion engines, the HL-20 would also offer enhanced crew safety." The engines have been retouched out of the photo, but it looks like a fighter/bomber aircraft sized version of the shuttle, but with swept-up wings. The comment that it can fit in the shuttle cargo bay gives a clue as to its size. It's hard to describe but if you have access to a library, look up the picture. I think that if I were going to replace an SR-71 with an orbital craft, I would use something like the HL-20 as a starting point. Does anyone have any history on this interesting piece of hardware? ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #507 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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