From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #523 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 25 November 1995 Volume 05 : Number 523 In this issue: Re: Mystery plane(s) re: mystery plane mystery plane re: mystery plane Re: mystery plane re: mystery plane re: mystery plane book recommendation See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Windle Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 20:24:18 Subject: Re: Mystery plane(s) Andreas & Kathryn wrote: >The USA has so many climatic regions on its own, that I don't believe there >is any reason to test "secret" hardware in Europe for the weather reason >alone. The only conceivable reason would be operational necessity. Perhaps we're talking about non US a/c here.It has been suggested to me that the Soviets have an almost innate proclivity to build prototypes and that the North Sea and/or other sightings are covertly acquired Soviet X-planes that are under evaluation. That way, the US can say, with hand on heart, that no such a/c exists in their inventory...and no gigabuck funding. It would make more sense to fly such a/c in Europe...though some might have found their way over the Atlantic to Kelly's Paradise Ranch or some such secure facility. I'm not suggesting that there are dozens of these things flying around..perhaps they fly on both sides of the Atlantic to confuse people like us trying to work out what's going on. Some very weird stuff went on in Belgium that Jean-Pierre has researched in depth. Why not open up our thinking ? Best D ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: re: mystery plane MS> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 02:02:06 -0500 (EST) > From: Mary Shafer > Subject: Re: Mystery plane MS> There was some sort of Blackbird at Edwards AFB in the summer of 1966--I > spent the summer between high school and college working in a building > across the street from a bunch of them. They were still so highly > classified that no one could tell me their name and I was admonished > to never mention that I saw them every day. .....................................^^^^^^^^^!!!! MS> Not then having succumbed to the airplane passion I now have, I'm > unable to tell you anything more about them. I can't help being curious about your message's last sentence. Do you mean that you can't tell us more about them because you never knew what they were? I'm thinking that if you knew what the Blackbirds looked like during your summer job, then you probably would know the kind of plane it was...assuming it was a variety of Blackbird. The variety of Blackbirds is pretty much public info now so I would think there is no limitation on what you can say about it. If it was some sort of Blackbird that was never disclosed, then THAT would have quite a few of us wanting to know what it was. On the other hand if you don't remember much about what you saw, then I have to turn off my "wild speculation" brain matter. Regards, Curious Al ps: I saw a rerun of a Discovery Channel show (Next Step maybe) that showed NASA's SR-71's flying. I believe I saw both the B model and the A model with NASA markings on them. I also saw a bunch of kids from some local school getting a chance to climb up a ladder and look in the cockpit. Also the narrator (Australian accent I think) was actually sitting in the cockpit! There was also some video and some discussion about JPL's experiments being flown in an A model. As you can imagine I was green with envy about the kids and the guy getting so close to an SR-71. I wonder if......... nah, nevermind. - --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...This sounds sinister and illegal. Tell me more! ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 14:12:00 -0500 Subject: mystery plane K&AG> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:19:10 -0500 (EST) > From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl > Subject: Re: Mystery plane K&AG> Mary, K&AG> The Blackbirds you saw at Edwards in the Summer of 1966 probably belonged > to the "SR-71/YF-12 Test Force", which was established at Edwards AFB on > June 1, 1965, under the AFFTC (Air Force Flight Test Center), reporting > to the AFSC (Air Force Systems Command). K&AG> On January 16, 1970, the unit was redesignated the 4786th TS (Test Squadr > and was then probably a part of STC (Systems Test Command), judging from > 4700ish unit number. K&AG> The unit was inactivated on January 12, 1972, and its duty was delegated > Det. 51 at Palmdale, CA, which reported to the 2762nd LS (Logistics Squad > at the AFLC (Air Force Logistics Command) headquarters at Norton AFB. K&AG> Det. 51 was established on January 1, 1971, and took over the Functional > Flight Check for SR-71s and U-2s from the AFSC. K&AG> On September 1, 1977, Det. 51 became Det. 6 (maybe through addition :) ), > which is still supporting U-2 operations, and will conceivably also suppo > the reactivated SR-71s. Perhaps there is another possibility. Suppose that at the time Mary saw these planes everyday while at work but didn't know what they were because she wasn't that familiar with them. But some number of years later she started working at NASA/Dryden and became very familiar with the Blackbirds. I would think she would be able to remember what she saw well enough that she would know which Blackbird it was. If she now knows that what she saw was not any of the Blackbirds we know about, then she may have seen something else....but who knows what! :) I'm willing to believe Mary didn't see anything like the UFO's some people claim that they exist. :-> K&AG> Have a nice Thanksgiving, K&AG> -- Andreas and Kathryn I am already stuffed!! Fat Albert - --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!" ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 19:25:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: re: mystery plane Hey, I had just graduated from high school and, other than the occasional air show, had absolutly no interest in, or knowledge of, SR-71s. They were just big, black secret aircraft and I neither knew nor cared what the details were. I don't think I even associated them with the President's announcement of the aircraft, since I didn't give a damn. I can tell you that I ended up in the middle of a security violation because of them--I was a data clerk, with my job being to accept computer decks, log them in, and carry them back to the 7094/7044 DCS. Then, when the jobs had run (batch mode, of course), I got the decks and paper output from the operators, put them in the cubbyholes of their owners, and called the operator to tell them to come over and pick them up. This was, incidentally, one of the major computer facilities in the aerospace world at the time. Well, the data from the flights were recorded on Ampex tapes, 1-in tape on 15 or 16-in reels. One of the SR-71 folks had carried in two tapes from the airplanes and, in error, set them down on my counter. They should have gone down the hall to the team that did the tape processing, instead, but he'd been told to drop them with the clerk in Bldg 3940 and I was the first one he saw. I recognized immediately that I wasn't supposted to have them, but he was out the door before I culd say anything. So I picked them up immediately, recognizing by the markings that I just couldn't let them lie there, and carried them to my supervisor. What a flap! They even had a colonel over to ask me what had happened, which made it pretty clear to me that it was a big deal (that was the first colonel I'd ever seen in my life except for the one my uncle introduced me to when we visited him at Nellis when he was the advance man for the Thunderbirds). In other, shorter words, as far as I know they were just plain old SRs. Nothing special, nothing sinister, nada. It would be very foolish to leap to any conclusions from anything in my posting except that that was the way they told unbriefed (i.e. not cleared for classified information) about a classified project. (Now the next summer, 1967, I was an engineering aide at NASA and dating a student at the TPS and I knew a lot more about aircraft, but I don't remember ever noticing an SR-71 at Edwards again, although they were flying out of Plant 42 routinely. But I still couldn't tell T-38s from F-104s when the summer started.) Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Fri, 24 Nov 1995, ALBERT DOBYNS wrote: > > MS> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 02:02:06 -0500 (EST) > > From: Mary Shafer > > Subject: Re: Mystery plane > > MS> There was some sort of Blackbird at Edwards AFB in the summer of > 1966--I > > spent the summer between high school and college working in a > building > > across the street from a bunch of them. They were still so highly > > classified that no one could tell me their name and I was admonished > > to never mention that I saw them every day. > .....................................^^^^^^^^^!!!! > > MS> Not then having succumbed to the airplane passion I now have, I'm > > unable to tell you anything more about them. > > I can't help being curious about your message's last sentence. Do you > mean that you can't tell us more about them because you never knew what > they were? I'm thinking that if you knew what the Blackbirds looked > like during your summer job, then you probably would know the kind of > plane it was...assuming it was a variety of Blackbird. The variety of > Blackbirds is pretty much public info now so I would think there is no > limitation on what you can say about it. > > If it was some sort of Blackbird that was never disclosed, then THAT > would have quite a few of us wanting to know what it was. On the > other hand if you don't remember much about what you saw, then I have > to turn off my "wild speculation" brain matter. > > Regards, > Curious Al > > ps: I saw a rerun of a Discovery Channel show (Next Step maybe) that > showed NASA's SR-71's flying. I believe I saw both the B model and > the A model with NASA markings on them. I also saw a bunch of kids > from some local school getting a chance to climb up a ladder and look > in the cockpit. Also the narrator (Australian accent I think) was > actually sitting in the cockpit! There was also some video and some > discussion about JPL's experiments being flown in an A model. As you > can imagine I was green with envy about the kids and the guy getting > so close to an SR-71. I wonder if......... nah, nevermind. > > --- > ~ SLMR 2.1a ~ ...This sounds sinister and illegal. Tell me more! ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 19:55:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: mystery plane As far as I can remember, they were just Blackbirds. To be honest, they told me to ignore them and I did. I wasn't at all interested in them, although I did enjoy watching them in the pattern at Plant 42. It's really interesting that if you're driving down Ave K or J and there's an SR-71 in the pattern some distance away, you'll be looking at it head-on but it won't really look like an airplane. Instead, it looks like three cylinders flying in close formation, which is kind of intriguing. (I should mention that I've seen a lot of UFOs--I can't tell one general aviation plane from another and now that I'in the throes of presbyopia I can't always identify the planes in the pattern at EDW from the NASA ramp, about 3 miles away, when I'm wearing my reading glasses.) Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Fri, 24 Nov 1995, ALBERT DOBYNS wrote: > > K&AG> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:19:10 -0500 (EST) > > From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl > > Subject: Re: Mystery plane > > K&AG> Mary, > > K&AG> The Blackbirds you saw at Edwards in the Summer of 1966 probably > belonged > > to the "SR-71/YF-12 Test Force", which was established at Edwards > AFB on > > June 1, 1965, under the AFFTC (Air Force Flight Test Center), > reporting > > to the AFSC (Air Force Systems Command). > > K&AG> On January 16, 1970, the unit was redesignated the 4786th TS (Test > Squadr > > and was then probably a part of STC (Systems Test Command), > judging from > > 4700ish unit number. > > K&AG> The unit was inactivated on January 12, 1972, and its duty was > delegated > > Det. 51 at Palmdale, CA, which reported to the 2762nd LS > (Logistics Squad > > at the AFLC (Air Force Logistics Command) headquarters at Norton > AFB. > > K&AG> Det. 51 was established on January 1, 1971, and took over the > Functional > > Flight Check for SR-71s and U-2s from the AFSC. > > K&AG> On September 1, 1977, Det. 51 became Det. 6 (maybe through > addition :) ), > > which is still supporting U-2 operations, and will conceivably > also suppo > > the reactivated SR-71s. > > Perhaps there is another possibility. Suppose that at the time Mary > saw these planes everyday while at work but didn't know what they were > because she wasn't that familiar with them. But some number of years > later she started working at NASA/Dryden and became very familiar with > the Blackbirds. I would think she would be able to remember what she > saw well enough that she would know which Blackbird it was. If she > now knows that what she saw was not any of the Blackbirds we know about, > then she may have seen something else....but who knows what! :) > > I'm willing to believe Mary didn't see anything like the UFO's some > people claim that they exist. :-> > > K&AG> Have a nice Thanksgiving, > > K&AG> -- Andreas and Kathryn > > I am already stuffed!! > Fat Albert > > --- > ~ SLMR 2.1a ~ "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!" ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 21:18:00 -0500 Subject: re: mystery plane MS> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 19:25:33 -0500 (EST) > From: Mary Shafer > Subject: re: mystery plane > To: ALBERT DOBYNS > Cc: skunk-works@gaia.ucs.orst.edu MS> Hey, I had just graduated from high school and, other than the occasional > air show, had absolutly no interest in, or knowledge of, SR-71s. They > were just big, black secret aircraft and I neither knew nor cared what the > details were. I don't think I even associated them with the President's > announcement of the aircraft, since I didn't give a damn. Well I was pretty sure you saw SR-71s or maybe YF-12A's but I wanted to offer other possibilities (regardless of how unlikely!) so that your response would clear it up. And it did. I don't think there were many black planes around other than U-2s and possibly an RB-57. MS> I can tell you that I ended up in the middle of a security violation > because of them--I was a data clerk, with my job being to accept computer > decks, log them in, and carry them back to the 7094/7044 DCS. Then, when > the jobs had run (batch mode, of course), I got the decks and paper output > from the operators, put them in the cubbyholes of their owners, and called > the operator to tell them to come over and pick them up. This was, > incidentally, one of the major computer facilities in the aerospace world > at the time. Well, the data from the flights were recorded on Ampex > tapes, 1-in tape on 15 or 16-in reels. One of the SR-71 folks had carried > in two tapes from the airplanes and, in error, set them down on my > counter. They should have gone down the hall to the team that did the tape > processing, instead, but he'd been told to drop them with the clerk in > Bldg 3940 and I was the first one he saw. I recognized immediately that I > wasn't supposted to have them, but he was out the door before I culd say > anything. So I picked them up immediately, recognizing by the markings > that I just couldn't let them lie there, and carried them to my > supervisor. What a flap! They even had a colonel over to ask me what had > happened, which made it pretty clear to me that it was a big deal (that > was the first colonel I'd ever seen in my life except for the one my uncle > introduced me to when we visited him at Nellis when he was the advance man > for the Thunderbirds). Sounds like a unique experience that you don't ever want to go through again!! I have a hunch that if you had left the tape on the counter and some officer had dropped by and seen it just laying there, you would have been in worse trouble. MS> In other, shorter words, as far as I know they were just plain old SRs. > Nothing special, nothing sinister, nada. It would be very foolish to leap > to any conclusions from anything in my posting except that that was the > way they told unbriefed (i.e. not cleared for classified information) > about a classified project. Sounds very reasonable to me! BTW, I chose the particular tagline as an attempt at humor...just in case anyone was wondering. MS> (Now the next summer, 1967, I was an engineering aide at NASA and dating a > student at the TPS and I knew a lot more about aircraft, but I don't > remember ever noticing an SR-71 at Edwards again, although they were > flying out of Plant 42 routinely. But I still couldn't tell T-38s from > F-104s when the summer started.) Hey, there are lots of planes including helicopters that I can't identify! I have a hard time figuring out if a plane is a MIG-29 or an SU-27(?). Some of those aircraft look very similar! MS> Regards, > Mary and for you also. Can I ask what does KotFR stand for? MS> Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com > URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html > Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard > Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... All that Internet stuff (URL, http, etc.) is foreign to me also, but that's probably because I couldn't get my computer to do anything with it. Maybe someday...... - --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ "We don't predict the future. We invent it!" ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 23:07:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: re: mystery plane On Fri, 24 Nov 1995, ALBERT DOBYNS wrote: > discussion about JPL's experiments being flown in an A model. As you > can imagine I was green with envy about the kids and the guy getting > so close to an SR-71. I wonder if......... nah, nevermind. >=20 > --- > =FE SLMR 2.1a =FE ...This sounds sinister and illegal. Tell me more! >=20 =09Hey!! Welcome to the 90's!!! Now you can "walk up" (in my case)=20 to the closest Aerospace museum and have a look of a Blackbird. I live in= =20 NYC and you can go to the Intrepid Air/Space/Sea Museum and take a look=20 of the A-12, before you could even touch the A-12 but now they restricted= =20 because everybody was taking a screw out of that airplane!!! (I tried but= =20 I was too short to reach the wing :P ) =09Even you can touch the F-117 at Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. =09=09=09=09=09May the Force be with you =09=09=09=09=09Su Wei-Jen =09=09=09=09=09E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu =09P.S.: Of course, you can not see everything because they took out=20 a lot of parts of the aircraft like the avionics system. ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 23:50:04 PST Subject: book recommendation First, a tidbit about spy planes that I am pursuing, and then a brief book mention. I have just filed a FOIA case seeking to get the FY 1996 CBJB (Congressional Budget Justification Book) for the Defense Airborne Reconnaissance Office (DARO) who now have control over U.S. aircraft intelligence platforms. In the FY 1996 Defense budget, DARO consolidated the various aircraft programs, such as SENIOR YEAR (U-2) and RIVET JOINT (i.e., Boeing 707s crammed with intel gear) into one 500+ million dollar program. As far as I've ben able to tell so far, the DARO even has control over aircraft as small as the Beech RU-21 and RC-12 propeller powered GUARDRAIL aircraft used to locate radio transmitters and radars. I'll have to let you know where this FOIA case goes. I just got a copy of a revealing book about the U.S. military and space, "Plowshares and Power - The Military Use of Civil Space", by Colonel Bob Preston USAF, 1994, Institute for National Strategic Studies, ISBN 0-16-051668-4. There are chapters on "Remote Sensing from Space", "Communications Satellites", "Satellite Navigation" and some quite useful appendices. There are some interesting leaks, such as some spectral bands U.S. camouflage systems are apparently vulnerable to detection in. Oddly enough, this can be obtained from the GPO, instead of the NTIS, where I get a lot of military documents (which have been released through the Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC)). If you're interested, try calling (202)783-3238 for a copy. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #523 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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