From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #543 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Sunday, 3 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 543 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 00:05:02 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 23:57:31 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id XAA20226; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:44:46 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id WAA05281 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:37:08 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id WAA05274 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:37:06 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:37:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199512030637.WAA05274@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #542 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 542 In this issue: Quiz and other posts Soviet high-altitude interceptors Hiding from spy satellites cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:57:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Quiz and other posts BaDge wrote: >>Well, that's because, in matters Aviatory, [like you and a few others on >>the list], Andreas knows =everything=! And Albert Dobyns replied: >Well, there are times when I wish I knew everything about certain >aircraft, but I've seen posts from several people here who I am sure >know a great deal more than me. I don't know how many of these people >are directly involved with the various planes discussed here, but it's >hard to beat experience with a collection of books, especially when >these books are written by different people..and the opinions or data >don't agree with each other! I wonder if Andreas has a lot of aviation >info in databases so that he can find info faster than I can find the >right book with the right info. Apparently, many Skunk Works readers wonder where I find the time to write "so much" on the Skunk Works list. Actually, as an independent programmer/ computer consultant, my schedule is pretty flexible, and if I am not busy, I like to occupy myself with aerospace/history related things. A lot of (more or less useful) information is stored in my brain, but I usually have to get out my books and/or magazines and occasionally some computer-stored info, to write my little articles. I suppose most people would say that I spend too much time with this aircraft stuff, and probably can't understand why I would spend hours sifting through magazines and books, to find one specific piece of data, but I like it, and it is fun for me. Anyway, I was pretty busy lately, and that's why I have quite a backlog of unanswered e-mails and queries to work through, as well as the last two AW&ST reports and other things to finish. Also, coming soon: some new additions to my home page. - - -- Andreas [in a working frenzy] - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:00:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Soviet high-altitude interceptors Grahame wrote: >Was there ever any suggestion that the Russians did a similar thing when >they finally ~got ~ an U-2 with Gary on board. >The US did seem to be a bit surprised to get caught out...The Soviets >could easily have done the same thing by using a stripped out machine >with one missile OR was it brought down by a SAM...one of those big heavy >long range brutes.(I was very very into those sorts of interests/things >at that time) Was was the Soviet front line interceptor at that time >surely not Mig 23's Gary Power's U-2 was shot down by one of several (14) SA-2 'Guideline' SAMs, which were fired at him, making him probably the first victim of a SAM. During this attack, one of the scrambled PVO Mig-19s was shot down by an SA-2, too. The Soviets indeed thought about stripped down, high-altitude, point defense fighters, like the MiG-19SV (SM-9V), and also made tests with ZLL (Zero- Length-Launch) MiG-19s, like the SM-30. They also experimented with added rocket engines, and the result was the MiG-19SU (SM-50, SM-51 and SM-52). Another Soviet rocket-equipped high-altitude interceptor prototype of the late '50s was the Ye-50A. The Ye-66 was a rocket-assisted version of the MiG-21F (actually the first Ye-6T prototype), while the Ye-166 was actually the Ye-152M prototype -- later the Ye-152 design was revived as the Chinese J-8 -- and the Ye-266 designation was actually applied to 3 different aircraft, the Ye-155R-1, the Ye-155R-3 and the Ye-155P-1, which were all MiG-25 prototypes. - - -- Andreas - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:08:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hiding from spy satellites John Szalay >What makes this topic remotely related to the skunk-works list, is >according to the Air Force, the SR-71 was retired because satellites >can provide the same coverage as the Blackbird, without it coming out >of the AF budget each year. (a very loose translation on my part) >As you can see, if you take these TLE's and plug them into a tracking >program, you can predict the times that this Chinese spy sat will be over= =20 >your area, therefore you hide what you don,t want to be seen and take a >break. As an example, here are the next 2 days for "break time"=20 >(overflights) for my area ( Louisville Ky) by this Sat.=20 >If you have a resource that can overfly a "target" without bring predictab= le >such as the SR, you gain the advantage. KEEP EM FLYING My .02=9B I believe this topic is very much Skunk Works related, for once -- Lockheed= =20 built not only the U-2s and SR-71s, but also most of the Corona satellites,= =20 and has of course a lot of projects at Groom Lake, Palmdale and other sites= ,=20 which they want to hide from the other side's satellites. John's post makes it sound so easy to hide from spy satellites, but I see= =20 several problems with this concept and have the following questions. * Overflights of one specific satellite occur, depending on its altitude,= =20 every few hours for any given longitude. The satellite might not be=20 passing directly above the same place, but sideways looking optics/radars and ELINT sensors are quite common. * You would not only have to hide from one single satellite, but from sever= al=20 satellites, at any given time. * Satellites often have eccentric orbits, placing them for extended periods= =20 of time over the preferred target area. * If you don't have the facilities, radars, etc. to track all suspicious=20 satellites, you have to rely on data from NORAD or another facility, and= =20 NORAD won't publish the data on their own spy sats. Maybe there are even= =20 stealth-sats. * Satellites can change their orbit, if necessary, and without constant=20 tracking, you don't know where the satellite really is. * An example: how often and for how long would 'Aurora' have to hide from= =20 satellites during the day, the week, the month, being tested at Groom=20 Lake? Every 2 hours for 15 minutes? How would one be able to do any usefu= l=20 work with a continuously interrupted work schedule like this? Anybody out there with facts or at least theoretically accurate background= =20 data or some ball park figures? - - -- Andreas - - --- -= - - -- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 =20 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars= / - - --- -= - - -- - ------------------------------ From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 22:25:02 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 22:17:07 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id WAA06857; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:06:23 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id UAA01393 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:54:34 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id UAA01386 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:54:33 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:54:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199512030454.UAA01386@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #541 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 541 In this issue: 9 digests cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tracker7@eworld.com Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:29:49 -0800 Subject: 9 digests Friends, I like the digest but so far today I have received 9 copies as text files and 9 partial copies as mail. Kind of expensive...:-) Dave Rosen - - ------------------------------ From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 20:45:11 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 20:42:25 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id UAA13898; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:32:51 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id TAA22268 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:15:33 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id TAA22259 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:15:32 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:15:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199512030315.TAA22259@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #540 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 540 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 19:05:03 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 18:47:48 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id SAA27326; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:37:02 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id RAA17961 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:35:01 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id RAA17954 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:34:59 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:34:59 -0800 Message-Id: <199512030134.RAA17954@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #539 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 539 In this issue: Bear engines Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #533 Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Art Hanley" Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:12:52 +0700 Subject: Bear engines For John Regus, The Bear is powered by four Kuznetsov (hope I remembered how to spell that) NK-12MV engines, each with about 14,795 shp. Art - - - - ------------------------------ From: "Art Hanley" Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:30:57 +0700 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #533 I was the one who mentioned the YE-266 (there was also a YE-266M). These aircraft had more powerful engines than standard Mig-25s. These aircraft were probably either modified Mig-25s or development models of what became the Mig-31. The engine of the Mig-31 is 38% more powerful than that of the Mig-25. So, Air Force ego not withstanding, putting that much more powerful an engine in the airframe (especially if you strip the airframe like they did with the Streak Eagle), would certainly enable them to pull this off. Knowing the Soviets, they may have even run the engines at damagingly high thrust levels just to set the record, but that probably wasn't necessary. One indication that these aircraft weren't too heavily modified from their existing state (as would be necessary to meaningfully use rocket boost at altitude) is that they took back the record relatively quickly after the Streak Eagle's flight. The Soviets were very big on holding records! As an aside, this characteristic of the Soviets gives an indicator of how good the SR was. When the SR took certain records back from the Soviets, they let them stand. If there was any way they could have pushed a Mig-25/31 to take the records back, they probably would have, even if it meant throwing away the airplane after the flight! Art - - - - ------------------------------ From: "Art Hanley" Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:07:41 +0700 Subject: Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) May I offer an alternate idea for which I have absolutely no indication that this is true and no basis to evaluate the likelihood of being correct? Assuming that people actually are seeing something real and new, is it possible that what is occasionally being observed is either the tests or possibly operational flights of a "Black Horse" type of vehicle? For those not familiar and without going on forever (as I sometimes do), "Black Horse" was the name given to an innovative type of SSTO vehicle that takes off from conventional airfields like an airplane. It climbs to about 40,000 feet or so on jet or rocket power depending on how its designed. At that altitude, through conventional air refueling techniques, it takes on enough propellant to continue its mission. Although you could transfer both fuel and oxidizer, since most of the propellant is oxidizer, the most efficient design would probably load all fuel on the ground and transfer the oxidizer in flight. After tanking, the main engine is lit and off you go to orbit (you get even more benefit if you can remain airbreathing until Mach 5.5, but it isn't necessary). Upon completion of the mission, the vehicle deorbits and returns for a runway landing. This can either be gliding all the way, like the Shuttle, or with power at the end if you have airbreathing engines. This kind of vehicle is very efficient, has much more freedom in the type of orbit it can attain, can use conventional technology for the most part, is very flexible in the type of fuel that will work (Heck, You can use JP5!), and would have self-ferry capability, either ballistically or regular flight.. Such a vehicle would have much the shape of what has been reported. The size is about right, although actually we might be looking at a "Black Colt" type of vehicle which is suborbital and somewhat smaller, but the same principle. You might actually see one refueling over the North Sea, for example, or crashing at Boscombe Down. On some flights, it would not be at all out of the ordinary for a couple of chase planes, say F-111s, to be observing the oxidizer transfer. Like I said, I've got absolutely no data to indicate this is actually happening, but all the pieces fit and it is kind of interesting, to speculate on, don't you think? Any thoughts, anyone? Art - - - - ------------------------------ From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 17:25:05 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 17:17:03 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id RAA23352; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:07:28 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id PAA14408 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:55:17 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id PAA14401 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:55:16 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:55:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199512022355.PAA14401@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #538 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 538 In this issue: Re: Stipped out speedy F15 cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jstone@iglou.com (John Stone) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:25:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Stipped out speedy F15 Michael writes Was there ever any suggestion that the Russians did a similar thing when they finally ~got ~ an U-2 with Gary on board. The US did seem to be a bit surprised to get caught out...The Soviets could easily have done the same thing by using a stripped out machine with one missile OR was it brought down by a SAM...one of those big heavy long range brutes.(I was very very into those sorts of interests/things at that time)Was was the Soviet front line interceptor at that time surely not Mig 23's No they got Powers with missiles actually got a least one of theirs in the process. John Stone | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@iglou.com U-2 and SR-71 Web Page http://wl.iglou.com/blackbird/ - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 15:45:09 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 15:36:59 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id PAA19320; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:23:52 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id OAA11599 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:13:24 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id OAA11592 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:13:22 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:13:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199512022213.OAA11592@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #537 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 537 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 13:45:09 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 13:37:14 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id NAA12885; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:22:48 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id LAA07998 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:57:45 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id LAA07989 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:57:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:57:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199512021957.LAA07989@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #536 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 536 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 11:45:10 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 11:42:08 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA07636; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:30:50 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id KAA05616 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:16:41 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id KAA05609 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:16:39 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:16:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199512021816.KAA05609@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #535 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 535 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 10:05:00 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 10:02:04 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id JAA24114; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:51:14 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id IAA02888 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:18:01 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id IAA02881 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:18:00 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:18:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199512021618.IAA02881@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #534 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 534 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 08:04:59 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 08:03:29 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id HAA16003; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:53:32 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id GAA00882 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:32:20 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id GAA00875 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:32:18 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:32:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199512021432.GAA00875@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #533 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 533 In this issue: re: Just Jokin' cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 00:17:00 -0500 Subject: re: Just Jokin' > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:51:51 -0500 (EST) > From: BaDge > To: ALBERT DOBYNS > cc: skunk-works@gaia.ucs.orst.edu > Subject: Just Jokin' BA> On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, ALBERT DOBYNS wrote: BA> > BA> What aircraft can go from brake-release to A-98 in just over three > > > minutes? > > > > I'll pitch my guess that it was the stripped-down version of the > > F-15A that was used to set several records back in 1975. I think > > it reached 30,000 meters in 207.8 seconds on Feb 1st. Pilot's name > > was Smith I think. I should had included the name "Streak Eagle" to the description just in case someone thought I was talking about a different F-15. Someone else mentioned the Russians retaking the records by using a modified MiG-25 called the E-266. One F-15 book I have said that our Air Force (or someone) did some figuring and said that the Russian plane could not have performed that well without the use of a rocket booster of some kind. I don't know if this was ever proven to be true. > > BA> [Andreas can't play] ;-) > > > > How come?? :-) BA> Well, that's because, in matters Aviatory, [like you and a few others on > the list], Andreas knows =everything=! Well, there are times when I wish I knew everything about certain aircraft, but I've seen posts from several people here who I am sure know a great deal more than me. I don't know how many of these people are directly involved with the various planes discussed here, but it's hard to beat experience with a collection of books, especially when these books are written by different people..and the opinions or data don't agree with each other! I wonder if Andreas has a lot of aviation info in databases so that he can find info faster than I can find the right book with the right info. .............. BA> Something Skunky... BA> If you are the Military, and you just got "stealth" technology, and you > have more money to spend, what do you go after next? BA> I'm thinking along the lines of Ben's comment that there are some things > out of LockHeed still not publicly disclosed, "...the others don't have > yet..." BA> Anyone know if there was any indication (don't laugh) that the Sea Shadow > could actually submerge? An interesting question! The answer may be classified. :( Al - - - - - - - - - - - --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again!" - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 06:24:59 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 06:06:42 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id FAA09712; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 05:54:28 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id EAA28971 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:50:58 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id EAA28964 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:50:57 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:50:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199512021250.EAA28964@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #532 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 532 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Re Stripped out speedy F15 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 01:25:02 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 01:11:36 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id BAA28026; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 01:01:41 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id AAA23166 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 00:06:03 -0800 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id AAA23159 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 00:06:02 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 00:06:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199512020806.AAA23159@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #531 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 2 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 531 In this issue: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Satellites and the SR Re: Mac(h)rihanish See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve_Patience@tmaker1.tmaker.com Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 19:23:37 Subject: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Resource error - try resending Original text follows - - - - - - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- Received: by ccmail Received: from netcomsv.com by tmaker.com (UUPC/extended 1.11) with UUCP; Fri, 01 Dec 1995 19:16:36 PST Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id TAA25026; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:07:22 -0800 From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu X-ccAdmin: postmaster@netcomsv.com Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id SAA07448 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:10:05 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id SAA07441 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:10:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:10:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199512020210.SAA07441@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #530 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Friday, 1 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 530 In this issue: Re: Today's Quiz Flying wing..... The Wonder Llama wins... Re: Chinese Spy Satellite Re: Chinese Spy Satellite Re: Today's Quiz Intro - Sort of Just Jokin' Re: Today's Quiz Re: Just Jokin' Tonight Re: Mac(h)rihanish Just Startin' Mail failure Re: Laser power requirements Re: Hypersonic speed -MOSTLY- evades shooting down ! Re: Just Jokin' See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 02:42:17 PST Subject: Re: Today's Quiz The Rockwell Orbiter gets along pretty good also! Chuck - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 02:49:13 PST Subject: Flying wing..... Althouth this is flying wing specific, I just thought I`d mention I added some output of computer simulations of the Dutch roll characterisics of the YB49 to my homepage, to evaluate the stability of flying wings as bombing platforms. If I get time this weekend, I`ll do the root-locus plot and figure out appropriate gains for a feedback control yaw-damper. I`ll apply it to the sim and we can compare the output to the stick fixed response. Chuck - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:38:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Wonder Llama wins... >First Ralph said.. The Saturn V? >then, "The Streak Eagle..." >If the Streak Eagle is the F-15, yer right. > >I think it was a mod. version. On Wings, this evening. > >Purty durn fast, IMO. ;-) It was, indeed! I win!! :-) Really stripped machine. All weapons systems removed, radar taken out, etc... They even stipped the paint off (saving a whopping 7 pounds - but that just goes to show you what an extent they went to to save weight!) >Your first answer [Saturn V], was close, but they didn't have brakes on >that model. All too true.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 07:45:42 EST Subject: Re: Chinese Spy Satellite > > Kevin Klapperich writes: > > The recent news of the Chinese spy satellite in decaying orbit has left me wondering about where it will strike. > > Doug Tiffany responds with: > Now my personal opinion: > I side with you, I'm sure they can calculate relatively close as > to where it will land, probably even closer than 300 miles. I'd > be willing to bet that there will be several ships in the area, > and several planes in the sky to track it and grab it asap! > And I add: And those ships will be from the US, Russia, England, Japan, Australia, India etc etc ....a regular trafic jam. :) Paul mangan@kodak.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 7:51:40 EST Subject: Re: Chinese Spy Satellite Paul Mangan writes: > And I add: > And those ships will be from the US, Russia, England, Japan, > Australia, India etc etc ....a regular trafic jam. :) That's what I mean, SOMEONE is bound to track it! :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- A hundred years from now, it will not matter what kind of house I live in, how much is in my bank account, or what kind of car I drive, but the world may be a different place because I was important in the life of a child. Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:52:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Today's Quiz On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Art Hanley wrote: > I wanna play too. > > In addition to the F-15A Streak Eagle that Albert responded with, > didn't the Soviets quickly trot out their YE-266 (modified Mig-25) a > few weeks later and climb even faster? 'Course you gotta wonder if > the engines were still usable after the flight. > > Art In that same WINGS episode, they showed the cobra maneuver, and some other cool stunts, and a nice slow-w-w low pass with a high attack angle, that ended with a climb straight up into the clouds. That's a little power for ya. Also, the mentioned some of the char. of the first Bear Bomber, that had the supersonice counter rotating props that would pull the darn thing over 575 mph, with that funky nose turret, and all. That's quite an engineering feat for the Sovs. especially at that time. regards, ________ BaDge - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Mike Smith Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 09:03:00 CST Subject: Intro - Sort of Hello to all, I've been lurking on the list for over a year, and have been absolutely facisnated with what I have seen. FWIW I have just finished Ben Rich's book, Skunk Works, and found it to be a wonderful read, with lots of highly interesting information. This is probably not news to most of you, but to anyone who hasn't read it yet, you really should. I really hope that there is some sort of advanced recon platform being developed, be it the so-called "Aurora" or whatever, and I hope Lockheed has alot to do with it. I don't know if the methods for developement that have been so successful with them in the past will now work, but for the sake of whatever they might be working on, I hope that those methods are. I want to close by thanking all the regular posters of the list for your insight, information, and making this one of the best lists I have been on. Also, to anyone on the list who has actually ridden in a Blackbird (Mary?) I want to say that you are IMHO, one of the most fortunate people on the planet. Good day to all, Mike Mike Smith msmith2@tandy.com Ft. Worth, TX - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:51:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Just Jokin' On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, ALBERT DOBYNS wrote: > BA> What aircraft can go from brake-release to A-98 in just over three > > minutes? > > I'll pitch my guess that it was the stripped-down version of the > F-15A that was used to set several records back in 1975. I think > it reached 30,000 meters in 207.8 seconds on Feb 1st. Pilot's name > was Smith I think. > > BA> [Andreas can't play] ;-) > > How come?? :-) Well, that's because, in matters Aviatory, [like you and a few others on the list], Andreas knows =everything=! It reminds me of a story... We had a family gathering with 3 generations, G-gma, Gma, Mom, Dad, daughter, and so forth. I wanted to impress the group at dinner with my Daughter's erudition. So I said "What's Eleven takeaway Seven", addressing it to the group, thinking little Kristin would answer. Of course, my =Dad= after a slight pause, looks up from his plate and says: "Oh that's easy...Four!". I sigh and say "Dad. We =know= you know the answer!", cracking everyone up. ;-D - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------- Something Skunky... If you are the Military, and you just got "stealth" technology, and you have more money to spend, what do you go after next? I'm thinking along the lines of Ben's comment that there are some things out of LockHeed still not publicly disclosed, "...the others don't have yet..." Anyone know if there was any indication (don't laugh) that the Sea Shadow could actually submerge? regards, ________ BaDge - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: "JOHN F. REGUS" Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:18:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Today's Quiz On 1 Dec 95 BaDge shaped the electrons to say: > Also, the mentioned some of the char. of the first Bear Bomber, that > had the supersonice counter rotating props that would pull the darn > thing over 575 mph, with that funky nose turret, and all. That's quite > an engineering feat for the Sovs. especially at that time. > How powerful were (are) the engines on the Sov Bear bomber? I did not know it could fly as fast as a commercial jet. Regards, ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + John F. Regus + SYS/370/390 SYSTEMS SOFTWARE, DATA AND + TELECOMMUNICATIONS ENGINEERING ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + internet: wizard@sccsi.com + internet: jregus@aol.com + voice : (713) 960 0045 + data : (713) 960 0015 (SECURED) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: kelleher@consilium.com (John Kelleher) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:24:07 -0800 Subject: Re: Just Jokin' >On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, >BaDge wrote: >Something Skunky... >Anyone know if there was any indication (don't laugh) that the Sea Shadow >could actually submerge? Virtually all known ships can submerge. The issues lie more in whether it can, under its own power, resurface. John - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 12:30:28 EST Subject: Tonight Don't forget, all you Terry Colvin fans, to watch "Unsolved Mysteries" tonight. They said they are going to uncover the myth about UFO's. Kind of a contradiction from the title of the show, don't you think? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- A hundred years from now, it will not matter what kind of house I live in, how much is in my bank account, or what kind of car I drive, but the world may be a different place because I was important in the life of a child. Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: sschaper@mo.net (Steve Schaper) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:54:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Mac(h)rihanish It may have been mothballed for the Clinton years. - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: "I am the NRA." Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:41:53 PST Subject: Just Startin' >If you are the Military, and you just got "stealth" technology, and you >have more money to spend, what do you go after next? "getting" stealth technology (or 'most any such) is not a one time thing. The UK "got" tanks in WWI. & kept on spending. (I may be being too literal in my reading, here....) >I'm thinking along the lines of Ben's comment that there are some things >out of LockHeed still not publicly disclosed, "...the others don't have >yet..." >Anyone know if there was any indication (don't laugh) that the Sea Shadow >could actually submerge? Old tech. 8)>> The germans were experimenting with "anti radar" surface treatments for conning towers & snorkels in WWII. It is known that current subs employ sam (Sonar Absorbing Material) on the hulls. What, if anything is done to the conning tower for RCS, i dunno, but less critical as surface running is no longer required. regards dwp - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: POSTMASTER@RPSPO4.ATTATLMFG.AtlantaGA.ATTGIS.COM Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 21:58:00 PST Subject: Mail failure [005] Mail retry count exceeded sending to: ATTATLMFG /RPSPO2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Return-Path: <@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM:skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> Received: from attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM by attatl.AtlantaGA.ATTGIS.COM id <30BC8FAF@attatl.AtlantaGA.ATTGIS.COM>; Wed, 29 Nov 95 08:51:59 PST From gaia.ucs.orst.edu!skunk-works-digest Wed Nov 29 05:12 EST 1995 remote from attatl Received: by attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM; 29 Nov 95 05:12:31 EST Received: from ncrgw1.UUCP (ncrgw1@localhost) by ncrhub4.attgis.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with UUCP id FAA21138 for rpspo2.atlantaga.attgis.com!cfoster; Wed, 29 Nov 1995 05:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by ncrgw1.ATTGIS.COM; 29 Nov 95 05:07:36 EST Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id AAA21663 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:06:03 -0800 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id AAA21654 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:06:02 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:06:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199511290806.AAA21654@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #526 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 29 November 1995 Volume 05 : Number 526 In this issue: Mac(h)rihanish Swedish pulse detonation wave engines Re: Swedish pulse detonation wave engines Hypersonic speed evades shooting down ! Re: Hypersonic speed -MOSTLY- evades shooting down ! See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:29:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mac(h)rihanish I am not sure how and where those "F-117As and SR-71As at Machrihanish" rumors originate from, but I wonder how a "Mach 3+ radar trace near Scotland" can be any indication for the deployment of the aircraft at this air field. Did the aircraft start from Machrihanish and then accelerate to Mach 3+, or was it just in that vincinity that a radar blip was sighted flying by, or how else was the connection made? Having only second and third-hand information does not help, either. Here are some excerpts from an article by Paul Jackson, titled "Shedding some light on the Aurora", which was printed in the "United States Air Force Yearbook 1993", published by the RAF Benevolent Fund Enterprises Publishing Unit in 1993. Talking about F-117s at Machrihanish (spelled Macrihanish throughout the article): "As well as the shape and designation of the aircraft, there were false leads concerning its haunts: it was either lurking at remote or seldom-visited bases such as Macrihanish and Wethersfield or taunting aircraft enthusiasts by operating under their very noses from Mildenhall and Alconbury. Now, a decent interval after these stories emerged, and with the F-117 acknowledged by the authorities and even appearing at air shows, there is not one shred of evidence to corroborate them." And later talking about Aurora at Machrihanish: "Observers began to speculate that the Aurora's test programme involved round- the-World flights, departing California, refuelling near Tahiti, landing at Macrihanish and later completing the sortie with a return to Lockheed's Palmdale base. The last-mentioned is a curious choice as it is a far from secure airfield with regard to the public's view over the fence. The Macrihanish connection appears to stem from a report of a Mach 3 aircraft leaving the base in November 1991 and being tracked by radar. A witness near the base heard 'an extremely loud jet noise' at about the same time. Much nonsense has been written about 'remote RAF Macrihanish'. Whilst the base seldom is visited by aircraft enthusiasts, it has a regular air service from Glasgow; is frequented by RAF and NATO visitors; is bounded on two sides by public roads and on a third by the sea; and the end of its runway points straight at, and is just two miles from the town of Campbeltown. Given that the Aurora can shake houses 16 miles from Edwards AFB, its effect on the hapless citizens of Campbeltown should extend to the awakening of those six feet below the kirk. Instead, one man heard a noise. There seems to be little point in hiding the Aurora in the middle of the Nevada desert if it then flies over the town square of the largest settlement (population 5,900) in the Western Isles at 500ft on long finals to Macrihanish." Sometimes a rumor is just a rumor. :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Andreas - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Urban_Fredriksson@icl.se (Urban Fredriksson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 18:30:44 MET Subject: Swedish pulse detonation wave engines FOA, the Swedish defence research establishemen, is developing pulse detonation wave (PDW) engines. Unlike older pulse jet engines, it doesn't have any moving parts. Studies has been underway since 1993, the first test rig was run in the spring of 1994 and was publicly shown during a conference in the USA (the first PDW engine publicly shown). Several types of fuels are to be tested: Acetylene, hydrogen, ethane and others. One goal is to be able to use a laser to initiate the detonation, so it can start without any previous combustion sequence. A laser can be focused very precisely, which is good not only to avoid combustion, but also to start the detonation sequence in different places, and thus use the different forces to guide the vehicle. One of the first possible applications is in missiles, as the PDW engine is very compact and gives good thrust levels. Other applications are UAVs and cheap expendable decoys. A PDW engine may cost only 20% of what a jet engine with the same thrust costs. FOA is mainly concerned with operating frequencies of 25-200 Hz, which is enough for anything from zero speed to Mach 3-4. About 700 Hz would enable speeds of up to Mach 15-20. The pressure is not very high, 20 - 30 bar, but the detonation wave is fast, 2500 m/s. It is possible not only to use internal thrust chambers, where the detonation wave is started from the rear of the chamber by the ignition circuit, but also external detonation waves, as the air/fuel mixture wouldn't spread out sideways due to the slipstream effect. This is where a laser comes in handy, as it can start the detonation to the rear of the engine in a predetermined spot. The PDW can be made small enough to fit into anti-aircraft projectiles. [Ny Teknik 46:1995] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se http://www.ki.icl.se/urf/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: sschaper@mo.net (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:20:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Swedish pulse detonation wave engines How would this compare in cost efficiency to rocket engines for boosters? A shuttle with say, 800 hz PDWs might be interesting. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: celestine@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Stockton) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 21:57 GMT Subject: Hypersonic speed evades shooting down ! Brett Davidson > says on 28th November, Little bit of the old US U-2 thinking here Brett and look what happened to Gary Powers.I appreciate the U-2 was subsonic however your same philosophy was applied but with this time with regard to altitude. A laser beam or particle beam will have no problem with hypersonic speeds! Grahame Stockton celestine@compulink.co.uk - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:27:44 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Hypersonic speed -MOSTLY- evades shooting down ! Sorry, this is a bit longish, but I hope that I'm being clear. On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Michael Stockton wrote: > Brett Davidson > says on 28th November, > > even if it was tracked and a fast enough missile launched,> > > Little bit of the old US U-2 thinking here Brett and look what happened > to Gary Powers.I appreciate the U-2 was subsonic however your same > philosophy was applied but with this time with regard to altitude. The U-2 was known to be vulnerable in 1960- "Oxcart" was well under way then. Altitude presents the problem of range, but very high speed presents a much more complicated challenge. The "virtual immunity" (I did overstate the case somewhat, but I didn't say "absolute immunity" :-7 ) of high speed has more to do with basic distance, time and geometry than simply being too fast to outrun. High speed manoeuvres entail great distances- as a result very small changes of course can require a great deal of cross-range capability that is not generally considered practical for very high speed and altitude missiles. The scales involved are not mere exaggerations of existing scales- they are in effect an entirely different regime. The Soviet pilot who defected in a MiG-25, Viktor Belyenko, commented that SR-71s were virtually impossible to intercept because of this: side-on, they passed in and out of range too quickly to acquire, track and fire; from behind, it was impossible to accelerate up to a matching speed and still be in range- and in the unlikely event of being forewarned and approaching head-on, the closing speeds were to great for the missiles to react to cross-range manoeuvres: in short, there were windows of opportunity to a priveleged manned, (compared to a missile) agile high speed and altitude platform, but they opened and closed far too quickly to be exploited. By the late 1970s, SA-10 and SA-12 surface to air missiles posed a threat to SR-71s on the level of MiG-25s, but were also subject to the same limitations. Staying on the edge of Soviet airspace and using SAR appears to have worked as far as they were concerned. In any case, after the Powers incident, direct manned overflights were ceased (I think) as a matter of policy as well as tactics and oblique observational methods were used. It is not impossible to shoot down a very fast vehicle; it is however, extremely difficult. > A laser beam or particle beam will have no problem with hypersonic speeds! Indeed, but nobody has any systems deployed, or is likely to for quite some time. No practical laser or particle beam weapon has been demonstrated- the SDI demonstrations were so rigged as to be virtual frauds and the BMDO proposal to put lasers on 747s is limited by the economics and logistics of keeping them permanently in the air. They would be fine for theatre warfare with defined, temporary states of alert, but a permanent state of alert would be impossible. That is the only laser defense system likely to appear soon, and it is about ten years away at best. The Russians might have the technical ability, but they hardly have the financial capability. Obviously no advantage is absolute or permanent, but designers have to deal with possible solutions to likely problems. *If* "Aurora" exists, it would enjoy significant advantages *now* and continue to do so for some time. Regards, --Brett - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #526 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:48:33 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Laser power requirements On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Michael Stockton wrote: > > Surely a direct feed to a nuclear power station would be the answer in > practical terms. The technology is there but as to whether in this day > and age now it is likely to ever be taken to that limit I doubt. Look up Edward Teller and his X-ray laser proposals! Not power stations- bombs! Unbuilt, though. Most high power laser designs rely on internal combustion of the lasing medium rather than external power- but see below. > > (BTW > A few years ago down here in Cornwall England we used to get an enormous > electric ~draw~ from an unknown to the public source in this country > rural area. The size of the power draw was large and the question as to > its reason large but answers were very small!! There were and still are > quite a few ~odd ~ establishments down in this area. This draw was > usually at night but whether that would have changed in war times I don't > know. ) > My copy of Ben Rich's book is at home, but I seem to remember that in part of it he said that they did the wind tunnel tests for the A-12 at night; both for security and the high power requirements, general power useage being lower at night. Could be wind tunnel tests of high speed missiles. Free-Electron-Lasers use powerful electromagnets to tune the output frequency by affecting the oscillation of electrons in the lasing medium (I think). They would require significant electrical power. Laboratory FEL prototypes? Who knows? The uninformative official explanation makes ones ears prick up- but is it "the dog that didn't bark" or just British official reticence? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --Brett > I wonder what sort of megawatt would be needed to supply a ground laser > of sufficient power to bring down a missile or aircraft? > > Grahame Stockton > celestine@compulink.co.uk > - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:35:24 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Hypersonic speed -MOSTLY- evades shooting down ! On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Steve Schaper wrote: > I was under the impression that weapons-grade lasers worked by explosively > vaporizing a small amount of target surface, and pulsing at a rate designed > to let the plasma cloud dissipate for the next burst to get through. The > result is an explosive process that tears the target apart. Probably?possibly that too. The relatively early research I remember relied on sudden thermal expansion sending a kinetic shock through the relatively flimsy shell of a missile... a more sophisticated "phaser" (sic!- "phased array laser") was proposed using multiple collimated beams with phased pulses that reinforced the kinetic shock oscillations by resonance a la Tacoma bridge... can't cite any sources, however. This does seem more likey to me because of the lower energy requirements than would be the case for vaporisation of material. I don't have any idea what the current approach is. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --Brett - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:01:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Just Jokin' Once upon a time John Kelleher shaped the electrons to say... >Virtually all known ships can submerge. The issues lie more in whether it >can, under its own power, resurface. ROTFLMAO! Thank you, I *really* needed that.... BTW, what's the latest on the AF-117X naval proposal? Still in limbo, or dead? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -MZ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- megazone@world.std.com 510-527-0944 MegaZone's Waste Of Time Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works; rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the body. - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #530 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 22:48:56 EST Subject: Satellites and the SR For those of you that wish to attempt to predict where and when the chinese satellite will re-enter, here is the note that the author of the tracking program STSplus, Dave Ransom has to say. '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 01 DEC 95 A recent Aviation Week & Space Technology article mentioned that a Chinese spy satellite was expected to re-enter early next year. I've had a number of queries for TLEs and, thanks to help from TS Kelso and Phil Clark, we've got 'em! See file FSW-1.TLE! The correct NORAD Number is 22870, International Designation 1993 063H. TS Kelso has advised me that he is adding the same file to his Internet site at ftp://archive.afit.af.mil/pub/space and it will be updated automatically! ***** here are the 2-line elements ********** JIANBING-93 P/L(1) 1 22870U 93063H 95335.24898568 .00304666 82639-5 20323-3 0 3248 2 22870 56.4566 96.6266 0604138 229.7187 124.9507 14.94537215 2456 - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- IMHO: What makes this topic remotely related to the skunk-works list, is according to the Air Force, the SR-71 was retired because satellites can provide the same coverage as the Blackbird, without it coming out of the AF budget each year. (a very loose translation on my part) As you can see, if you take these TLE's and plug them into a tracking program, you can predict the times that this Chinese spy sat will be over your area, therefore you hide what you don,t want to be seen and take a break. As an example, here are the next 2 days for "break time" (overflights) for my area ( Louisville Ky) by this Sat. If you have a resource that can overfly a "target" without bring predictable such as the SR, you gain the advantage. KEEP EM FLYING My .02› John Szalay jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---- STSORBIT PLUS Data Output to STSPLUS.LOG, Data = 19 Location: Louisville, KY Prepared: Friday, 01 Dec 1995 22:22:32 Satellite Name: JIANBING-93 P/L Catalog Number: 22870 93063H TLE Filename: FSW-1.TLE -----------AOS----------- --MAX VISIBILITY-- ------LOS------ # EST Date & Time Azm EST Time Alt Azm EST Time Azm Duration V 1 02 DEC 95 02:42:32 184.0 02:50:30 26 118.7 02:58:54 54.5 0:16:22 2 02 DEC 95 04:21:14 227.9 04:30:18 73 314.5 04:39:30 42.4 0:18:16 3 02 DEC 95 06:02:59 267.2 06:11:28 24 332.8 06:19:34 39.7 0:16:35 * 4 02 DEC 95 07:46:19 300.5 07:53:41 13 353.7 08:00:22 48.9 0:14:03 5 02 DEC 95 09:28:39 318.2 09:36:05 16 15.8 09:42:21 76.4 0:13:42 6 02 DEC 95 11:09:26 319.3 11:17:37 45 38.4 11:23:43 119.2 0:14:17 7 02 DEC 95 12:50:18 306.9 12:57:13 24 242.5 13:02:29 173.3 0:12:11 8 03 DEC 95 01:12:01 137.4 01:16:20 4 107.5 01:20:48 78.0 0:08:47 9 03 DEC 95 02:46:36 195.5 02:54:59 38 122.4 03:03:52 50.4 0:17:16 10 03 DEC 95 04:26:05 237.9 04:35:06 53 319.3 04:44:09 41.0 0:18:04 11 03 DEC 95 06:08:22 276.4 06:16:32 20 337.8 06:24:17 40.7 0:15:55 * 12 03 DEC 95 07:51:36 306.5 07:58:52 13 359.2 08:05:24 54.2 0:13:48 13 03 DEC 95 09:33:24 319.7 09:41:07 20 21.5 09:47:26 86.1 0:14:02 14 03 DEC 95 11:14:00 317.6 11:22:14 70 43.7 11:28:17 131.3 0:14:17 15 03 DEC 95 12:55:12 300.9 13:01:15 14 247.2 13:06:06 189.1 0:10:54 - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: etech@deltanet.com (Eric Chevalier) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 23:23:39 PST Subject: Re: Mac(h)rihanish This isn't very skunky, so I'll try to keep it brief :) I'd never heard of Mac(h)rihanish until a recent spate of messages in this list. But a few days ago, after seeing the messages, I was surprised to see the name pop up in the closing credits of the movie "White Nights" (Mikhail Baryshnikov and Gregory Hines, portraying dancers trying to escape of the Sovuet Union). I think it was used to portray a Soviet military base in Siberia. ======================================================================== etech@deltanet.com Eric Chevalier Compu$erve: 76010,2463 etech@netcom.com --------------------- Prodigy: GCXJ11A http://www.deltanet.com/users/etech ======================================================================== - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #531 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: celestine@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Stockton) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 12:48 GMT Subject: Re Stripped out speedy F15 Michael writes < Really stripped machine. All weapons systems removed, radar taken out, etc... They even stipped the paint off (saving a whopping 7 pounds - but that just goes to show you what an extent they went to save weight!)> Was there ever any suggestion that the Russians did a similar thing when they finally ~got ~ an U-2 with Gary on board. The US did seem to be a bit surprised to get caught out...The Soviets could easily have done the same thing by using a stripped out machine with one missile OR was it brought down by a SAM...one of those big heavy long range brutes.(I was very very into those sorts of interests/things at that time)Was was the Soviet front line interceptor at that time surely not Mig 23's Grahame celestine@compulink.co.uk - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #532 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #539 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #540 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #541 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #542 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #543 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).