From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #553 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Monday, 4 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 553 In this issue: Re: Mac(h)rihanish Re: Mac(h)rihanish Re: Titanium, reprise Re: Titanium, reprise Re: Just Jokin' (D)ARPA Re: Hiding from spy satellites Re: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Re: Titanium, rerereprise titanium Titanium and Plastic Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise) Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #552 Speaking of Titanium White Cloud (was Re: Hiding from spy satellites) Re: Speaking of Titanium Re: credits Test RE: Plastic Guns Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) (fwd) Re: (D)ARPA Re: Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Burtenshaw Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 09:24:06 -0100 Subject: Re: Mac(h)rihanish At 23:23 01/12/95 PST, you wrote: >This isn't very skunky, so I'll try to keep it brief :) > >I'd never heard of Mac(h)rihanish until a recent spate of messages in this list. But a few >days ago, after seeing the messages, I was surprised to see the name pop up in the closing >credits of the movie "White Nights" (Mikhail Baryshnikov and Gregory Hines, portraying dancers >trying to escape of the Soviet Union). I think it was used to portray a Soviet military base >in Siberia. Sounds about right, my father tells me that when he was in the RAF it was one of the places that the CO sent those who didn't fit in (a sort of exile I suppose). BTW did you you know that it has a US special forces detachment there (Navy SEALS if my memory serves me correctly), doing what I do not know. Its pretty dire, almost as bad as a place called Benbaculla (sp?) which is an Island of the the North of Scotland and is used by UK forces for guided missile test firings apart from a few sheep and their farmers there's not much there. Regards John =========================================================================== John Burtenshaw Systems Administrator, The Computer Centre, Bournemouth University - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB U.K. Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595089 Fax: 01202 513293 AX.25: g1hok@gb7bnm.#45.gbr.eu. AMPRnet: g1hok.ampr.org. (44.131.17.82) CompuServe: 100336.3113@compuserve.com =========================================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Robin J. Lee" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 04:09:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Mac(h)rihanish On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, John Burtenshaw wrote: > I suppose). BTW did you you know that it has a US special forces detachment > there (Navy SEALS if my memory serves me correctly), doing what I do not > know... That would be Naval Special Warfare Group 2, which indeed is the SEALs and their friends. I have no idea what they're doing, either... - -Robin. ____________________________________________________________________________ Robin J. Lee amraam@netcom.com Vulture's Row Worldwide Web Page URL: http://webcom.com/~amraam/ ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 04:12:25 PST Subject: Re: Titanium, reprise Titanium is nuthin these days. Jewelry, fishing tackle.... We use flexible titanium belts on my machine here. Chuck ------------------------------ From: keller@eos.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:10:04 EST Subject: Re: Titanium, reprise Ralph S. Hoefelmeyer shaped the electrons and holes to say: >Hi, >This Titanium thread has been up before. To show how ubiquitous Titanium is >becoming, look at the Jan 96 issue of Guns magazine, page 2. There's a full >page ad for a limited edition of Colt Anaconda .44 magnum pistols, completely >plated with Titanium. Also, Ruger is supposed to be investigating the use of >Titanium in semi-automatic pistol frames. >With the increasing civilian use of Titanium, and the techniques to manufacture >with it, does anyone think it may see more use in main-stream fighter aircraft, >as well as high-speed skunk-works type vehicles? I've always been under the >impression that the difficulty of machining it precluded more widespread use. >Though, there are laser cintering techniques under study for Titanium, as well >as other refractory materials. >Any thoughts or comments? (besides saving up for a totally Titanium pistol!) This is exactly what is happening, although it must be said that metals in general seem to sort of going out of style in airframing, with the use of composites being favored, when possible. Nonetheless, yes, titanium is seeing greater use in airframes, and not just in exotic airframes. I understand that Boeing used quite a bit more titanium in 777 than in the 757/767, with the simple explanation, "the price is right, the properties are right, use it." According to an article which appeared a few months ago in Aviation Week, Lockheed wound up having to use more titanium in the wing of F-22A than had been originally planned when live-fire tests showed that the original design mostly composite wing did not stand up to battle damage the way it was supposed to. As a result, a design change was required which replaced a number of composite elements with titanium. Titanium itself is not rare within the earth's crust, to the contrary it makes up 0.6% of the earth's crust, which makes it one of the more common elements. However, yes, it is quite difficult to machine, and it's even more difficult to smelt from the ore, since, although it's a nice, high-melting point, highly corrosion resistant metal, it is that way only up to a point. Once heated to a temperature near (but still below) its melting point, it has the nasty property that it burns in both oxygen and nitrogen. Twenty or thirty years ago, yes, titanium was scarce and expensive, and there were ocassional spot shortages when it couldn't be obtained at all, at any price. Now, however, it seems that it has settled to being like most any other commodity metal. It can obtained--the price you pay for it, however, will vary. Paul Keller keller@eos.ncsu.edu ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 09:06:44 EST Subject: Re: Just Jokin' > > > > BA> [Andreas can't play] ;-) > > How come?? :-) > Well, that's because, in matters Aviatory,(...), Andreas knows =everything=! > > It reminds me of a story... > We had a family gathering with 3 generations, G-gma, Gma, Mom, Dad, > daughter, and so forth. I wanted to impress (...) > So I said "What's Eleven takeaway Seven", addressing it to the group > thinking little Kristin would answer. > Of course, my =Dad= after a slight pause, looks up from his plate and says: "Oh that's easy...Four!". > I sigh and say "Dad. We =know= you know the answer!", cracking everyone up. I UNDERSTAND, BUT.... My Dad died without telling me everything he knew. So, Andreas and/or all the other Dad's and Mom's out there please keep playing and telling us what some of us children still don't know. Paul mangan@kodak.com ------------------------------ From: Paul Suhler Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:23:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: (D)ARPA The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency is a Department of Defense funding agency; it doesn't do research directly. It has a number of offices organized along technologies. Each office has program managers who are responsible forestablishing programs, selecting among proposals, and reviewing the results of the funded research. The PMs are frequently university faculty with good reputations in their fields. They stay for nominally two-year terms, although many stay longer. Unfortunately, it's becoming more common for Congress to use ARPA as a pipeline for pork, directing them to award XX amount of dollars to a particular project at a university or company in the home district. Nevertheless, a lot of the research is actually worthwhile. Paul Suhler ------------------------------ From: sschaper@mo.net (Steve Schaper) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:46:56 -0600 Subject: Re: Hiding from spy satellites There are amateur astronomers who specialize in watching sats. Including ones that officially don't exist, like White Cloud. Some, Washington forbids to be posted online - but Canadian hobbyists can, and do. Further, craft like the Keyhole series are expensive and we do not have a large number in orbit at any given time ------------------------------ From: sschaper@mo.net (Steve Schaper) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:46:38 -0600 Subject: Re: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Please stop resending this packet over and over and over each day. ------------------------------ From: Greg Fieser Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:44:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Titanium, rerereprise Paul Keller (keller@eos.ncsu.edu) writes: > > Twenty or thirty years ago, yes, titanium was scarce and expensive, > and there were ocassional spot shortages when it couldn't be obtained > at all, at any price. Now, however, it seems that it has settled to > being like most any other commodity metal. It can obtained--the price > you pay for it, however, will vary. > I seem to remember hearing that, for a while, one of the reasons titanium was so hard to obtain was because a large percentage of the world's supply of titanium came from the former Soviet Union. The "shortage" was a result of the Motherland's hoarding of this resource for "internal consumption", supposedly for use in submarine and aircraft construction. Can anyone confirm or comment on this possibility? Greg Fieser (since I'm self-employed, the above views DO represent those of my employer!) ------------------------------ From: tcrobi@most.magec.com (Tom Robison) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:15:03 +0500 Subject: titanium Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 13:16:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Titanium and Plastic [text deleted] >> plated with Titanium. Also, Ruger is supposed to be investigating the use of >> Titanium in semi-automatic pistol frames. >> > > Uhhhh... they even have plastic thermoresistente pistol. >Therefore, it is not metal detectable. I don't know about the bullets... > May the Force be with you > > Su Wei-Jen > E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu Unless you are talking about some "skunk-works" type "pistol" used by James Bond or his equivalents, there is no known pistol available to the general public which is not capable of being detected by a PROPERLY ADJUSTED metal detector as used in airports and security check stations. What you are, I believe, refering to was the media created "Plastic Pistol". When Glock (a gun manufacturer) introduced this firearm, they made use of modern palastics to reduce weight. The media and a few perhaps less than totaly honest (if there is such a thing) politicians chose to try to convince lawmakkers that this "plastic gun" could not be detected. Subsequent tests showed this to be completly false but, like often happens especially here, old rumors, once given life even if only for deception purposes, never die. A much larger problem with weapons detection is operator lack of training, lack of attention, or mis innerpatation of information, kind of like radar operators not noticing high perfarmance aircraft because their equipment is not adjusted, setup or perhaps, capable of detection. I wonder if a well trained and motivated radar crew could find an F-117 or SR-71 (A-12) given proper equipment. Doing something about it in adequate time to plan defense is another story. Direct from the halls of Edinboro University - (814) 732-2484 and directly from the terminal of, - 142 Miller Bldg. - Edinboro Univ. Joe Pyrdek pyrdek@edinboro.edu - Edinboro PA 16444 per UCC 1-207 (all rights reserved) ------------------------------ From: "Philip R. Moyer" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:07:03 -0800 Subject: Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise) Wei-Jen Su wrote: Uhhhh... they even have plastic thermoresistente pistol. Therefore, it is not metal detectable. I don't know about the bullets... *Sigh* The myth of the undetectable gun again. :-) If you are talking about the Glock series of semi-auto pistols, you're mistaken. The frame is plastic, but the barrel and slide are still the same old metal. You can't carry one through a metal detector. Of course, you could remove the slide and the barrel, but then, what's the point? :-) Cheers, Phil ------------------------------ From: gj bart Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #552 Regarding the prevalence of Titanium, a young lady showed me her Titanium watch band the other day. ------------------------------ From: Tom Petrisko <0007191437@mcimail.com> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 13:26 EST Subject: Speaking of Titanium I was amazed to find SEIKO has a titanium chronograph. It is so lighweight compared to a stainless steel one. But it costs about a hundred dollars more than the stainless one. I think Omega has one also. Tom ......................Still flying at my desk after all these years. ------------------------------ From: fmarkus@pipeline.com (Frank Markus) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:56:01 -0500 Subject: White Cloud (was Re: Hiding from spy satellites) On Dec 04, 1995 09:46:56, 'sschaper@mo.net (Steve Schaper)' wrote: >There are amateur astronomers who specialize in watching sats. Including >ones that officially don't exist, like White Cloud. Some, Washington >forbids to be posted online - but Canadian hobbyists can, and do. While I am familliar with the KH (Keyhole) series of reconaissance satellites, I have not heard of White Cloud. Three questions: (1) What is it? (2) What does Washington forbid being posted? (3) How does it do the forbidding? Having mentioned White Cloud online will I get an answer to my questions or a knock on my door at midnight (which would, I suppose, answer my third question.) ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:26:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Speaking of Titanium On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Tom Petrisko wrote: > > I was amazed to find SEIKO has a titanium chronograph. It is so > lighweight compared to a stainless steel one. But it costs about > a hundred dollars more than the stainless one. I think Omega > has one also. > > > > > Tom > > > ......................Still flying at my desk after all these years. > > Plus Citizen (I have one), and Brettline (I spell bad, but everyone know is the "official" brand watch for a pilot). May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu ------------------------------ From: Greg Fieser Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:30:31 -0600 Subject: Re: credits On Dec 04, 1995 17:14:33, 'Donald Betman ' wrote: > > On Dec 04, 1995 09:44:31, 'Greg Fieser ' > wrote: > > How do I unsubscribe to this listserve? > > -- > Donald Betman > I (Greg Fieser) did NOT write this quote. I most definitely do NOT want to "unsubscribe to this listserve". I am assuming that Mr. Betman's mail tool utility somehow automatically generated this reference, and the message was unintentionally credited to me. I certainly HOPE that is the case. Anyway, let's all try to be a little more responsible in the future... Thank You, Greg Fieser ------------------------------ From: ahanley@banyan.usace.mil Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 9:16:34 ÿÿÿ Subject: Test This is a test. All of a sudden, I'm not getting anything. ------------------------------ From: "Paul Heinrich" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:00:09 +0000 Subject: RE: Plastic Guns It gets even better. Glock adds significant amounts of Barium (a very dense metal) to their plastic frames. Because of this Glocks actually show-up better, under X-rays, than do "regular" all-steel guns. I did see a diagram of a supposed CIA all-plastic X-ray-proof handgun. Whether this is pure fantisy or not, I don't know. regards, Paul ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:43:41 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) (fwd) Seems to have been some mailer snafus, so I'm just resending a previous post, with a few ammendments. Delete if you like. >On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Art Hanley wrote: >> May I offer an alternate idea for which I have absolutely no >> indication that this is true and no basis to evaluate the likelihood >> of being correct? >You know, this inspires me to do exactly the same thing.... >> Assuming that people actually are seeing something real and new, is >> it possible that what is occasionally being observed is either the >> tests or possibly operational flights of a "Black Horse" type of >> vehicle? >Looks reasonable enough, but just to add to the mix, here's my idea: >OK, lets take the "Donuts on a rope". Now, Sweetman in "Aurora" says that >his consultants tell him that this contrail has nothing to do with the >Rocket-Based Combined Cycle engines that the alleged Aurora appears to >use- the pulses being purely a low-speed phenomenon. So... maybe, as Mr >Bill suggests, this is the contrail of a Pulse-Detonation Wave Engine. >Now, AW&ST in the Dec 24 1990 issue, pp. 41, 44 describes a very peculiar >vehicle which we now know of as the "Pumpkin Seed". There is speculation >that it is some sort of semi-ballistic Stuka that takes off under jet >power and then changes to a sort of external combustion engine. Then >there is the "Mothership" (AW&ST Aug 24, 1992, pp. 23-25). >Now, it strikes that the PS (IF it exists etc etc) could get into the air ERRATUM: I think that it is UNLIKELY that it could get into the air under its own power AND perform in the upper hypersonic regime. >under its own power and still reach the suborbital-orbital (?) realm >alone. However, as the Mothership (assuming that THAT exists) is assumed >to be the carrier/first stage of a Two-Stage To Orbit System, maybe it >carries the PS up to ~90 000'/30 000 m and Mach 3 where the PS ignites its >PDWE and heads off on its merry way to do whatever. >The MS/PS pair could be an analogue of the Soviet "Uragan" (Hurricane) >"Space Fighter" that was abandoned (ran out of money) after some promising >tests in the 80s (Spaceflight May/June/July/August 1995) or proposed in the >USAFs "Spacecast 2020" report (AW&ST Sept 5, 1994 pp.101-105). >For good measure, I might also suggest that it's piloted by Elvis. Now, Art commented- from a fragmentary record of my post- that the Black Horse doesn't need a Mothership. Indeed, it is a very elegant scheme. What I am indulging in here is speculation that appears to fit some rumours/leaks/sightings. If the PS/MS 2STO system exists, it may or may not rule out the (parallel?) existence of a Black Horse type vehicle. They may, of course, not exist at all; or be unconnected if they do exist. Does that help, Art? To me, the Black Horse idea seems _fairly_ compelling (just trying to impose some discipline on myself here so that I don't end up like Whitley Streiber ie: rich :-7) because Black Horse itself seems like such a good idea that one wonders why it hasn't been built yet... - --Brett ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:07:33 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: (D)ARPA On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Paul Suhler wrote: > The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency is a Department of > Defense funding agency; it doesn't do research directly. It has a > number of offices organized along technologies. Each office has > program managers who are responsible forestablishing programs, > selecting among proposals, and reviewing the results of the funded > research. > > The PMs are frequently university faculty with good reputations in > their fields. They stay for nominally two-year terms, although many > stay longer. I think that the Internet itself was an (D)ARPA project called ARPANET back in the 70s- a military-academic communications network project designed to be resistant to nuclear strike by being uncentralised; later split into the purely military MILNET and the civilian Internet as we know it. Correct?? - --Brett ------------------------------ From: "David \"Scre^2ch\" Prieto" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:49:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise) The whole point of the thing is that if a "unproperly trained" operator or one that is overworked. You can make those parts look like other items or cover them with other common objects made out of metal so that they wont show or appear to be other things. Done properly these guns are "undetectable" ***************************************************************************** David "Scre^2ch" Prieto 14/3 dpriet01@barney.poly.edu screech@cnct.com TIP#814 ***************************************************************************** On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Philip R. Moyer wrote: > > Wei-Jen Su wrote: > > Uhhhh... they even have plastic thermoresistente pistol. > Therefore, it is not metal detectable. I don't know about the bullets... > > > *Sigh* The myth of the undetectable gun again. :-) If you are talking about the Glock series > of semi-auto pistols, you're mistaken. The frame is plastic, but the barrel and slide are still > the same old metal. You can't carry one through a metal detector. Of course, you could remove > the slide and the barrel, but then, what's the point? :-) > > Cheers, > Phil > > ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #553 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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