From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #554 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Monday, 4 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 554 In this issue: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #552 PLASTIC GUNS Titanium Re: Titanium Re: Titanium, re-reprise Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) (fwd) Re: Titanium, reprise Re: DARPA, ARPA and the Internet Re: Titanium, rerereprise Re: Titanium, rerereprise A dangerous, tasteless, practical joke. Re: More titanium, re-reprise Re: White Cloud (was Re: Hiding from spy satellites) Re: Titanium, rerereprise Re: DARPA, ARPA and the Internet Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) (fwd) Re: Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise) Re: White Cloud (was Re: Hiding from spy satellites) Flying anecdotes See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Scott Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #552 I would like my name to be taken off this mailing list, PLEASE. I have already sent the mail to unscribe this subscription a long time ago. ------------------------------ From: Troublboys@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:18:47 -0500 Subject: PLASTIC GUNS I have heard a different story about Glock. I have heard that they were experimenting with ceramics with good results. I think they were only good for a few fireings. Besides bullets I would like to know what they could do about springs. I guess plastic is possible for some components. And speaking of TITANIUM I know ceramics are used to replace it in applications such as sonic welding. Something to think about anyway. TROUBLBOYS ------------------------------ From: chosa@chosa.win.net (Byron Weber) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 19:20:49 Subject: Titanium Im admit it, I was the one who initiated this Titanium thing a couple of months back. The issue, however, was not about current uses of titanium, but rather the interesting fact that RAND Corp had done research in the late 40's regarding its use as a structural element in aircraft. (wasnt published until the mid 50's) Furthermore, and also interesting, was the fact that the Skunk Works seems to have been the first to find it useful in the developement of the SR-71, many years later. With the difficulties they experience in manufacturing one must conclude, it had not been used before. The subtle mind wonders how and why RAND conceived of its use for aircraft so early on. It turned out, titaniums usefulness related to unattainable and unrealistic speed in the late 40's. Was RAND following up on WWII German science, or something else? The main point was a subsequent study done by RAND, also in the late 40's, on the use of beryllium. It seems the only admitted current use is for small part structural items in the space program. Byron ------------------------------ From: freeman@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:49:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Titanium Didn't Bell's proposal for the X-15 (not chosen, obviously) use a titanium skin? I have a vague memory of having read something about titanium plates overlapping like fish scales, somewhere, somehow.. -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ From: Daga1@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:11:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Titanium, re-reprise Does anyone know if titanium is available in the form of standard-shape rolled structural sections? I-sections, angles, channels, tees, etc?? I was wondering if it is possible to form this high-temp metal in the same manner (or similar) as mild steel (as is used in the building construction industry). Also, does anyone know if there is an association for titanium -- as there is for aluminum and steel? Just curious. Andy ------------------------------ From: "Art Hanley" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:11:05 +0700 Subject: Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) (fwd) Regarding Brett Davidson's observations on Black Horse: I would imagine that in the 1990s and beyond, a two-stage to orbit vehicle is simply going to be too complicated and expensive to be seriously considered for a vehicle of this size. Back in the 1970s, that was a different story. The materials technology wasn't as advanced, miniturization wasn't as advanced as it is now, necessitating bigger payload capacity, and we thought we'd be sending up a LOT more payloads by now than we are, which would justify the cost of a two-stage to orbit vehicle. To give you a perspective of how times were, consider this: In the very early 1970s, before the space program was gutted, everything we would need to send a manned expedition to Mars with the exception of the lander itself was either already in the prototype stage or under funded development. The Shuttle itself was originally conceived as a two stage to orbit vehicle. Nowadays, I would think that you'd either go with a very large SSTO, like the Delta Clipper, or if you want increased flexibility but don't need the payload, Black Horse has an enormous number of advantages. It doesn't even need the devl;opment of any new rocket engines. As to why it hasn't been built, I would think the explanation might be that first, although it seems like such an obvious idea in retrospect, it is so different from the lines that everyone has been following (and where the funding is) that it didn't occur to a lot of people. Second, the availability of a Russian rocket engine of the right size (not as efficient as a new engine, but much cheaper) would have been inconceivable just a few years ago. Third, there's the dread spectre of, "Not Invented Here" on the part of the powers that be (witness first reaction of NASA and the government to the spectacular success of the DC-X). Keep in mind though, that what I am speculating on is that it may Have been built. I have no evidence to back me up, just the observation that it fits what has been observed at various sites at various times. Size, shape and operations all fit. Doesn't mean it actually exists, though. Another relevance to this list. There has been talk of "stealth satellites" and the like here. The problem with them is that the launches could still be tracked. A Black Horse type of vehicle could escape this, not because it's all that stealthy (although it could be during the first part of the mission), but because no one is looking that way. For example, put a 1,000 pound satellite in the bay, takeoff from Britain, take on oxidizer over, say, the North Sea and then blast Northward into orbit. You could do this in "plain sight" of everyone (radar show a normal refueling operation), and unless someone actually, physically was in a position to visually sight the vehicle, no one would be the wiser (the actual climb to orbit could take place where no one is looking). You could also deorbit relatively stealthily because, once you're back in the atmosphere, You Can Turn and make major heading changes by trading off crosswind range. You'd show up as one of those mysterious sonic booms or high speed "traces". Just something to think about... Art ------------------------------ From: Daga1@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:21:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Titanium, reprise Almost forgot... Have you seen the golf clubs being made from titanium? That's cool, but what's cooler is that they are being machined from old soviet ICBMs (SS23??). I love it, the perfect ending for a missile designed to destroy capitalism. Andy ------------------------------ From: "Art Hanley" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:26:51 +0700 Subject: Re: DARPA, ARPA and the Internet DARPA is ARPA. They dropped teh D because their focus is broader than just defense, now and it opens up more funding possiblities. ARPANET, I believe, was the original network that DARPA vunded so that universities and labs could share data, e-mail and the like. When people started using it for other things and everyone and their sibling (non-sexist but akward phrase) started getting on board it became the wild and wooly Internet. At least I Think that's how it happened. Art "Why Can't I Get These Posts at Work Anymore" Hanley ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 21:28:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Titanium, rerereprise GF> From: Greg Fieser > Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:44:31 -0600 > To: skunk-works@gaia.ucs.orst.edu > Subject: Re: Titanium, rerereprise GF> Paul Keller (keller@eos.ncsu.edu) writes: > > Twenty or thirty years ago, yes, titanium was scarce and expensive, > > and there were ocassional spot shortages when it couldn't be obtained > > at all, at any price. Now, however, it seems that it has settled to > > being like most any other commodity metal. It can obtained--the price > > you pay for it, however, will vary. > > > I seem to remember hearing that, for a while, one of the reasons titanium > was so hard to obtain was because a large percentage of the world's supply > of titanium came from the former Soviet Union. The "shortage" was a result > of the Motherland's hoarding of this resource for "internal consumption", > supposedly for use in submarine and aircraft construction. Can anyone > confirm or comment on this possibility? I believe the late Ben Rich's book says that the Skunk Works couldn't get consistently high quality titanium in America so they set up dummy companies that bought titanium from Russia. I'm not sure what form it was in. Raw ore might be very bulky. Maybe they just bought it in the form of ingots. Then the Skunk Works could turn it into specific alloys. Long ago I read a story in a general magazine that listed where metals that were listed as being critically needed by the US. Titanium was listed and it seemed that almost all of it was obtained from various foreign countries. I think the point of the article was that America depended too much on other countries for supplies of important metals. And if a country decided to cut off the supply to us, we could be put in a difficult situation. Don't throw out anything containing any titanium! We may have to revive the old scrap metal drives that were common back in WW II and maybe Korea. My memory of these drives and buying stamps to put in a book which was then used to get War Bonds is incomplete/rusty. - --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ "Boris, my friend, we need more Titanium..quickly!" :) ------------------------------ From: Daga1@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:34:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Titanium, rerereprise >>I seem to remember hearing that, for a while, one of the reasons titanium was so hard to obtain was because a large percentage of the world's supply of titanium came from the former Soviet Union. The "shortage" was a result of the Motherland's hoarding of this resource for "internal consumption...<< Actually, I think this was the case with chromium, which, at least for a time, was commercially obtained from just two places: the Soviet Union and South Africa. That's why the US has (and I think we still do) strategic reserves of certain metals like chromium which are key to the defense industry. Also, just in case we get back to the moon, titanium is very abundant in lunar regolith. It is found in the form of ilmenite (combined with oxygen and iron, if I recall correctly). Andy ------------------------------ From: "joseph.r.sleator" Date: 5 Dec 95 14:50:52 Subject: A dangerous, tasteless, practical joke. G'day all, This may be off charter, depending on how you look at it, but I think it's relevant, since it involves electromagnetic detection/deception dis-information, airport security, and "trained" threat-detection operators. A really dirty trick for Christmas shoppers: 1. Get some lead foil, or sheet polyethylene plastic 2. Layer and cut the lead foil into a handgun shape, small, like a ppk or tokarev, but two dimensional, with a sear, cartridges, and phoney two dimensional "guts" 3. Go to an Airport bookshop. Preferably the international terminal. 4. Stealthily insert one of these into the hardcover of a glossy aircraft book (the choice is yours) 5. Stick a matching sheet of shelf paper over the 'gun' 6. Wait for an avid aircraft enthusiast to buy the book 7. Loiter near the security gate and watch. What should happen is the bag he puts the book into will go through the x-ray. The operator will stop the belt. Run it back, then forwards again. He'll look real worried for a moment, then he'll make eye contact with one of the other security dudes waiting for passengers. He'll make a secret handsignal and point to the hapless book buyer, and the dudes will stop him and frisk him thoroughly. They'll then take every- thing out of the bag, and go through it with a fine-tooth comb. They'll re x-ray _everything_ perhaps separately. They'll find the book, but probably not the fake gun for about five minutes. Try not to look conspicuous while you watch. Everyone while be quite confused. I would never actually try this, especially on aviation enthusiasts. It's fun to talk about electromagnetic deception, though. There, 2403 bytes of wasted bandwidth! Cheers, Joe Sleator Sydney, Australia ------------------------------ From: Side Show Marc Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:26:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: More titanium, re-reprise I know that if you hit the Boeing Surplus outlet in Kent, Washington, it's possible to buy titanium in 1X3 sheets as well as aluminum and steel. Needless to say, it's very expensive but very cool. ___________ Marc Studer ___________________________________________ | " . . . The ground wins 100% | "In a Marc vs Twinkie engagement, of the time." - F-111 Pilot | the Marc wins 100% of the time." | ______________________________________ mstuder@spu.edu ___________ On Mon, 4 Dec 1995 Daga1@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone know if titanium is available in the form of standard-shape > rolled structural sections? I-sections, angles, channels, tees, etc?? I was > wondering if it is possible to form this high-temp metal in the same manner > (or similar) as mild steel (as is used in the building construction > industry). > > Also, does anyone know if there is an association for titanium -- as there is > for aluminum and steel? > > Just curious. > > Andy > ------------------------------ From: sschaper@mo.net (Steve Schaper) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:35:53 -0600 Subject: Re: White Cloud (was Re: Hiding from spy satellites) It has been some time since I was on AOL. White Cloud is a formation of sats that are most likely used for elint. They are apparently very noticable when you see them. ------------------------------ From: "JOHN F. REGUS" Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 07:09:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Titanium, rerereprise The dummy corporations were set up to buy titanium from South Africa, which the SA BOSS did nothing to interfere with, and legitimated the repurchase of titanium from the dummy corporations by American companies. The amount of strategic metals from SA was more important than violating the "spirit" of direct commercial contact with the RSA during the embargo. Regards, JFR Bacalaureate Candidate, Universitaat van der Suid Afrika, UNISA, (1975-76) ...ROTFLOL... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + John F. Regus + SYS/370/390 SYSTEMS SOFTWARE, DATA AND + TELECOMMUNICATIONS ENGINEERING ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + internet: wizard@sccsi.com + internet: jregus@aol.com + voice : (713) 960 0045 + data : (713) 960 0015 (SECURED) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: "JOHN F. REGUS" Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 07:16:27 -0600 Subject: Re: DARPA, ARPA and the Internet On 4 Dec 95 Art Hanley shaped the electrons to say: > DARPA is ARPA. They dropped teh D because their focus is broader than > just defense, now and it opens up more funding possiblities. > > ARPANET, I believe, was the original network that DARPA vunded so that > universities and labs could share data, e-mail and the like. When > people started using it for other things and everyone and their > sibling (non-sexist but akward phrase) started getting on board it > became the wild and wooly Internet. At least I Think that's how it > happened. The ARPANET (pre-internet was set up for research facilities at major universities to communicate with DoD...except when DoD started STU req for the net, the academics bolted and said the information should be for everyone to access. I still enjoy telling people, when the question comes up, "what was the most dangerous compromise to COMINT and SIGINT...I tell them it wasn't the GRU...it was the UNIX operating system. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + John F. Regus + SYS/370/390 SYSTEMS SOFTWARE, DATA AND + TELECOMMUNICATIONS ENGINEERING ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + internet: wizard@sccsi.com + internet: jregus@aol.com + voice : (713) 960 0045 + data : (713) 960 0015 (SECURED) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:35:18 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Mystery Plane (a new idea) (fwd) Longish message here. Sorry, but its got my brain ticking over... On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Art Hanley wrote: > Regarding Brett Davidson's observations on Black Horse: > > I would imagine that in the 1990s and beyond, a two-stage to orbit > vehicle is simply going to be too complicated and expensive to be > seriously considered for a vehicle of this size. Back in the 1970s, > that was a different story. The materials technology wasn't as On sci.space.tech there has been a long debate on the relative merits of SSTO & 2STO. From that it appeared that SSTO has the advantage of logistical simplicity and economy. On the other hand, 2STO, while complex and costly, relies on two small(ish) technological leaps rather than one big one. Also, it tended to have better self-ferrying and abort capability general flexibility. That might well appeal to the military more than a big SSTO "truck"- though the actual role of such a _very_ hypothetical vehicle is speculation squared. However, considering the largess of the Reagan-Bush administrations towards the military and the black world, development isn't so implausible. I might add that 2STO has been seriously considered in the form of Interim HOTOL, MAKS, Sanger and Pegasus. > advanced, miniturization wasn't as advanced as it is now, > necessitating bigger payload capacity, and we thought we'd be sending > up a LOT more payloads by now than we are, which would justify the > cost of a two-stage to orbit vehicle. I think that here the economic circumstances of a high-profile civilian agency with civilian aims are being applied to a covert military system. It depends on what one wants to get into space, or lobbed halfway around the world, and how urgently. > manned expedition to Mars with the exception of the lander itself was > either already in the prototype stage or under funded development. > The Shuttle itself was originally conceived as a two stage to orbit > vehicle. With the exception of a rather radical upper stage- if it is PDWE-driven (and PDWE has particular advantages of weight and simplicity)- the lower stage could be envisaged as being an SR-71 enlarged x2, thirty years later, or an XB-70 sized vehicle. Now, both types could not be remanufactured, but the flight-test database still exists, as well as that from the M/D-12 programme. Big development costs are still there, but I would say that most of the components are not far removed from previous types and would be, perhaps, rather more attractive than the bigger gamble of an SSTO. Overall, I don't think that the technological/developmental problems would have been prohibitive in the late 80s. > Nowadays, I would think that you'd either go with a very large SSTO, > like the Delta Clipper, or if you want increased flexibility but > don't need the payload, Black Horse has an enormous number of > advantages. It doesn't even need the devlopment of any new rocket > engines. < various good points edited> > right size (not as efficient as a new engine, but much cheaper) > would have been inconceivable just a few years ago. Third, there's > the dread spectre of, "Not Invented Here" on the part of the powers Indeed. > Keep in mind though, that what I am speculating on is that it may > Have been built. I have no evidence to back me up, just the > observation that it fits what has been observed at various sites at > various times. Size, shape and operations all fit. Doesn't mean > it actually exists, though. Ditto- but this is for fun, isn't it? > Another relevance to this list. There has been talk of "stealth > satellites" and the like here. The problem with them is that the > launches could still be tracked. A Black Horse type of vehicle > could escape this, not because it's all that stealthy (although it > could be during the first part of the mission), but because no one > is looking that way. For example, put a 1,000 pound satellite in > the bay, takeoff from Britain, take on oxidizer over, say, the North > Sea and then blast Northward into orbit. You could do this in > "plain sight" of everyone (radar show a normal refueling operation), > and unless someone actually, physically was in a position to > visually sight the vehicle, no one would be the wiser (the actual > climb to orbit could take place where no one is looking). You could > also deorbit relatively stealthily because, once you're back in the > atmosphere, You Can Turn and make major heading changes by trading > off crosswind range. You'd show up as one of those mysterious sonic > booms or high speed "traces". > > Just something to think about... Just to sound like an annoying obsessive, I think that similar could be said of a turbojet-PDWE 2STO. 1000 lbs isn't much for a reconnaissance satellite, but maybe a "disposable" ELINT or hydrazine resupply to a large "KH-12+" (whatever) could be considered, as well as other missions such as close inspection (and neutralisation) of other nations satellites. Applying Occams razor, Black Horse requires that there be fewer mysterious planes (one) than the 2STO does (Mothership, upper stage and Aurora to account for the low altitude/speed pulses and the North Sea "refuelling" sighting). However, there has been a wide enough range of sightings to accomodate that possibility too. Large SSTO and small Black Horse does look like the best combination to develop now. - --Brett ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:48:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise) On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, David "Scre^2ch" Prieto wrote: > > The whole point of the thing is that if a "unproperly trained" > operator or one that is overworked. You can make those parts look like > other items or cover them with other common objects made out of metal so > that they wont show or appear to be other things. Done properly these > guns are "undetectable" > > ***************************************************************************** Yeap!!! That is the idea. This look like one of the James Bond movie guns. In the airport I even had experience of taking in a electric gun. The operators didn't saw or identified what it was. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:07:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: White Cloud (was Re: Hiding from spy satellites) > >There are amateur astronomers who specialize in watching sats. Including > >ones that officially don't exist, like White Cloud. Some, Washington > >forbids to be posted online - but Canadian hobbyists can, and do. > > While I am familliar with the KH (Keyhole) series of reconaissance > satellites, I have not heard of White Cloud. Three questions: (1) What > is it? (2) What does Washington forbid being posted? (3) How does it do > the forbidding? It doesn't. This is (supposedly) still a free country after all. :) About the only thing the original article could be referring to is the fact that NORAD does not publish orbital elements for classified satellites. Hobbyists can do whatever they want however, unless they happen to have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement... > Having mentioned White Cloud online will I get an answer to my questions > or a knock on my door at midnight (which would, I suppose, answer my > third question.) Well, to answer your first question, WHITE CLOUD was the name for a satellite series called NOSS (Naval Ocean Surveillance Satellite). It also goes by other names such as PARCAE and CLASSIC WIZARD, and is used primarily for detection and electronic surveillance of ships. One thing especially interesting about NOSS is that it deploys subsatellites in a triangle formation, so that gives it a very distinct appearance to ground observers. The subsatellites use interferometry to pinpoint the source of any emissions. ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 16:59:42 EST Subject: Flying anecdotes TWC sends... Here are some press cuttings I've found which may amuse depending on your sense of humour. Unfortunately I don't have the original sources, but I can assure you that they're all genuine. PERSONAL TOUCH Mr Clive Mackrell, an air-traffic controller, saw a Cessna 182 that he was guiding in to land go out of control at Blackpool airport and hit his new car yesterday. No one was injured. ----------------------- `A banana caused a French passenger aircraft to go on hijack alert and turn back in mid-flight on June 18,' reports Reuters. `A passenger on board an Air Inter Airbus from Paris to Malaga, Spain, mistook a bulge in another passenger's trousers for a gun and alerted the crew. After the return to Orly airport, paramilitary gendarmes discovered the fruity nature of the bulge.' ----------------------- 34 year-old Jean Aliers broke down when his girlfriend rejected a marriage proposal 20,000 feet up in the air. Mr Aliers and his lover, both keen skydivers, were in the middle of a jump when he presented her with a ring and asked her to marry him. To his horror, however, she screamed in his ear: "I'm screwing your father." Without further ado he screamed back: "I'm strawberry jam, you bitch, and it's your fault," before unharnessing his parachute and tumbling earthwards to his death. His girlfriend was devastated, not least because, as she later explained, "It was just a little joke." ------------------------ Customs officers in Egypt are among the most vigilant in the world, as discovered by Abdul Dhouti when he tried to pass through Cairo airport with a gold ingot clenched between his buttocks. Officials first became suspicious when they saw Mr Dhouti limping through the `Nothing to declare' aisle clasping his bottom with both hands and claiming that an in-flight prawn cocktail had "turned my innards to burning fire." He was allowed to pass, but had barely gone 10 paces when he was heard to cry, "Shit!" following which a gold bar worth 68,000 pounds popped out of the bottom of his trousers. Under interrogation he blamed Jordanian Airlines' prawns for producing "a most devilish and unnatural movement of the bowels." ------------------------ ____________________________________________ |Tom James | | |Chemistry Dept | * e-mail * | |Southampton University | tjj194@soton.ac.uk | |England | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #554 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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