From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu
To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu
Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #556
Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu
Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu
Precedence: bulk
Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 5 December 1995 Volume 05 : Number 556
In this issue:
Re: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message
Skunk Works Secrecy Memo
MODERATION PLEASE
Re: Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise)
U2 on a Carrier
Re: U2 on a Carrier
Re: Titanium
NORAD and Christmas
Wings CD's
Re: U2 on a Carrier
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works
or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:42:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: cc:Mail UUCPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message
Once upon a time Steve Schaper shaped the electrons to say...
>Please stop resending this packet over and over and over each day.
It isn't a person doing it, it is a mail daemon. You have to remove the
source of the problem, which has been done as was stated in a recent post.
Then you have to wait for any errors still in the pipes to trickle out.
As a maintainer of 8 mailing lists, I've seen this enough times myself.
it can be frustrating for a maintainer when someone else's daemon is setup
wrong - they should never return errors to the list itself. Be glad it
seesm to be a digest user, or every email to the list would be generating
an error. (*That's a joy.*)
- -MZ
- -- megazone@world.std.com 510-527-0944
MegaZone's Waste Of Time
Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works;
rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to
majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the body.
------------------------------
From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:43:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Skunk Works Secrecy Memo
Lockheed Martin Skunk Works
1011 Lockheed Way
Palmdale, CA 93599
Ms. Joan Vail
Counsel for Security Policy
2201 C Street, NW
Room 225, SA-44
Washington, DC 20522-4402
Dear Ms. Vail:
Thank you for the opportunity of presenting my thoughts to your
Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy. Attached are
my comments on each of the four requested areas: classification,
declassification, personnel security, and information security.
For more than fifty years, the Skunk Works has worked on highly
classified efforts. We are unique in the fact that ninety percent of our
work is classified. This presents us with particular problems. For
example, the inability to clear and/or access an individual to a
contract or program means that the individual will more than likely lose
his/her job.
A problem that continues to plague the Skunk Works is the vast
difference in security requirements between our customers. These
differences subject the Skunk Works continually to inspections by
multiple customers utilizing different criteria. The new National
Industrial Security Program Operating Manual is attempting to solve
these problems. However, a lot must change before true savings can be
achieved by the present attempts at standardization.
I believe the government needs to evaluate each contractor on its
performance. I stand behind the Skunk Works record of secrecy. Our
success is evident in the security attached to such programs as the F-
117, U-2 and SR-71. Their very existence was unknown for years. I feel
that security should be included as a criteria for fee awards on
contracts. This would not only provide an incentive for efficient, cost
effective security, but allow security to become a revenue producer as
opposed to an expense.
We are headed in the right direction. Commissions such as yours are
fostering government and industry cooperation which will result in
better security at lower costs.
Sincerely,
J.S. Gordon, President
Lockheed Martin Skunk Works
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lockheed Martin
POINT PAPER
RESPONSE TO
COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY
REQUEST FOR INFORMATION
13 September 1995
LOCKHEED MARTIN SKUNK WORKS
Division of Lockheed Martin Corporation
1011 Lockheed Way
Palmdale, CA 93599
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. BACKGROUND
As requested, we are responding to the Commission's request for
information on our thoughts and comments on the impact of preserving the
secrecy of sensitive projects. We concur with the Commission's efforts
to make comprehensive proposals for reform designed to reduce the volume
of information classified and thereby strengthen the protection of
legitimately classified information. The economic environment is such
that every effort must be made to assure the adequacy of protection
within the constraints of a security system that is simplified, more
uniform and more cost-effective.
In the ever-changing environment in which we work, a lot has evolved
since the Commission was formed. The current system for classifying,
safeguarding, and declassifying national security information is
contained with Executive Order 12958, dated April 1995. This order
prescribes all pertinent details concerning classification standards,
levels, categories, and authority. This order further defines the
duration of classification and declassification/ downgrading. The
National Industrial Security Program Operating Manual (NISPOM) further
promulgates these regulations, and flows derivative classification
authority and guidance to the contractor community. In short, the
Government Contracting Authority is the classification authority and
issues classification guidance to the contractor in the form of
classification specification and security guides. The contractor role is
to classify, based on this guidance (derivative classification), and
challenge what it believes to be improperly classified information.
Implementation of these measures on a consistent basis will go a long
ways to drive down the cost of security.
2. ISSUES IN PRESERVING SECRECY
2.1 Extent of Classification/ Consequences of Overclassification
In original classification, the government has often relied on outdated
perceptions concerning the value of the information, the whims of an
overzealous classification official or, if all else fails, the status
quo. Special access program managers have always had the power to
independently set security policy within their program. This culture of
secrecy often contributes to initially classifying more information than
required, over- classification of information, and not downgrading or
declassifying information in a timely manner. Often times this promotes
empires and limits oversight. The consequence of this action directly
relates to added cost affecting the bottom line of industry and
inflating procurement costs to the government.
* Overclassifying technology inhibits information exchange between
programs and leads to "reinventing the wheel."
* Classifying contractual and financial data within a corporation, which
in today's environment should rarely be classified, inhibits accurate
forecasting, limits oversight, and could eventually lead to an erosion
in shareholder value based on unavailab ility of information for
analysis.
* From a legal standpoint, classifying unnecessary paperwork can put the
company and the customer in jeopardy of union actions and lawsuits.
Issues that we experience daily pit an overzealous need to limit access
against the rights of a bargaining unit employee of employment based on
seniority.
* For larger programs, massive declassification would not only eliminate
unneeded protection for older information but would also have the
potential for decreasing the amount of classified areas that are
dedicated to storage.
Most information is perishable. A rational government-wide standard of
classification should serve as a guide for all classification decisions.
It is the duty of the classification official and the program to do a
uniform and realistic risk assessment that defines not only what
information is classified, but how long it can be reasonably assumed to
require that protection. If a declassification date cannot be
established, a reasonable review date should be set up and adhered to.
It is evident that any unnecessary restriction to information flow will
create added cost and inefficiencies in an organization. One method of
avoiding this is to address proper classification up front.
* Our recent Tier III Minus program is a good example of cost avoidance in
this area. Early in the program, Lockheed and ARPA worked diligently to
establish realistic security guidance geared to the program goals-- a
compressed schedule and roll out ni ne months later. The result was the
ability to do a job without unnecessary restraints while protecting the
technological capabilities. This was an acknowledged special access
program.
* Unfortunately, unacknowledged special access programs do not always work
as well since they are at the mercy of the program managers and numerous
security guides. These programs usually involve long lead technologies
that are oftentimes classified on generalities and do not address review
cycles for downgrading or declassification. This results in multiple
customers applying multiple security requirements. A fallout of this is
the fact that inspections are now comprised of multiple agencies, multip
le programs within agencies, and a cast of inspectors continually
inspecting the same items within the contractor facility. This
repetition adds both time and money to the government and contractors.
Eliminating this redundancy within nspections (e.g., e very customer
checking the alarm systems, plant protection response times, government
security files, visitor control procedures, etc.) would create less
intrusive inspections and save time all around. The bottom line is
inspecting the common criteria on ly once.
To eliminate the added cost of secrecy requires cooperation of
government and industry. We need to work together to establish the
realistic classification guideline and properly identify exactly what
information requires protection, while at the same time keeping program
goals in mind. Also, proper oversight and management of a recognized and
timely declassification review process is required to eliminate
unnecessary security protection and allow effective flow of information.
2.2 Personnel Security
Personnel security, the cornerstone of the security system, is only as
good as the trustworthiness of the people in possession of (or
responsible for) classified information.
* Personnel Security Clearance: The granting of a clearance means the
individual has been screened and met the criteria for clearance in such
areas as: financial stability, immoderate alcohol/ illegal drug use,
foreign involvement/ connections, arrest records, psychological/ mental
counseling.
* Periodic Re-evaluation: Each cleared employee needs to be periodically
re-evaluated to assess his/her ability to continue to safeguard
classified information and five- to seven-year periodic reviews should
be continued.
* Periodic reviews would be more effective if they consisted of a standard
Counter Intelligence (CI) scope polygraph for contractor personnel.
* A set of three to five questions dealing with trustworthiness (e.g.
"Have you sold information to another country?"), rather than lifestyle
questions, should be the standard for the polygraph.
* Adverse Information Reporting: Adverse reporting is very important
because it can trigger a new background investigation.
* Every American convicted of espionage might have been stopped, if
identifiable adverse information had been reported.
* A strong security education program is required to motivate our
employees to be responsible citizens and to report behavior that calls
into question the integrity or trustworthiness of a cleared employee.
* The greatest threat to a defense contractor does not come from outside
sources. Historically, it has been someone from within that is most
likely to commit espionage.
The personnel security system has recently become easier for
contractors.
* The Defense Investigative Service (DIS) agents and the Defense
Industrial Security Clearance Office (DISCO) have adopted a user-
friendly and helpful perspective towards industry.
* The advent of computers has enabled contractors to process Personnel
Security Questionnaires (PSQs) in a timely manner. Modern technology has
allowed us to process and store information with a great deal of
efficiency.
* On-line capabilities have alleviated the seven-day delay in waiting for
mail deliveries for Letters of Consent. This permits employees on lay-
off or in holding tanks to report to their work stations expeditiously.
* The NISPOM relaxed the need for extensive paperwork for reinstatement/
revalidation/ transfer. It is now possible to utilize a one-page form
for these purposes.
* DIS has granted a waiver to transfer clearances within all Lockheed
Martin companies, to easily merge and reorganize the new corporation.
* DIS is transitioning into more of a partnership with industry. An
example of this partnership is the amount of time needed to clear an
individual from "hire" to "start date." The ISM [the old Industrial
Security Manual] gave only 30 days. At the Skunk Works most employees
must possess a final clearance before they can start work. A final
clearance takes between 3 months to 6 months on an average-- and as long
as one year in some instances. We requested a waiver from this 30-day
requirement and asked instead for 120 days processing time. The waiver
was granted, and the NISPOM, which replaced the Industrial Security
Manual (ISM), changed the processing time to 180 days.
* This partnership is a reality-- especially at the local level. DIS
representatives visit the facility and know what is going on. They have
adopted a "teamwork" approach (e.g. sharing information, solving
problems, etc.) rather than behaving like a policing agency looking for
problems.
The future offers a more timely and less expensive personnel security
system.
* Beginning late this year, a new standard form will be utilized for all
clearance requests, i.e. Top Secret, Secret and Confidential clearances.
* The Privacy Portion on the new form will be easier for employees to
complete due to the fact that most of the questions will address only
the last seven years.
* Eventually, all forms will be on-line to DISCO, including the new PSQ,
User Agency endorsement letters, and fingerprint cards. Contractors
cannot accomplish transmission if any of the required data is missing
from forms, which will eliminate time-consuming rejections.
The personnel security system needs even more refinement.
* The new personnel security Executive Order, requiring a financial
disclosure, is poor "risk management"; it speaks more towards "risk
avoidance." If someone makes the decision to commit espionage, he/she
would not hesitate to lie on a financial disclosure statement. Financial
disclosure would also have a negative effect on our industry by keeping
good people from becoming involved in an industry that invades their
privacy.
* Contractors are required to complete a local file check-- which
encompasses a review of personnel files, Government Security files,
payroll (wage garnishments), etc., and a supervisor certification for a
Top Secret clearance at the time a request for clearance has been
initiated. When Defense Investigative Service (DIS) agents arrive to
investigate, they perform exactly the same file checks. This is a time-
consuming task and a duplication of effort.
* Change the requirement to report traffic violators to a certain number
with a certain time-span. Increase dollar amount on traffic citations to
be reported as adverse information (not to include alcohol or drugs).
* The Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals needs to make more timely
decisions of whether to grant or deny an employee a security clearance.
In some cases, it takes six months to a year for a decision.
* It is redundant to submit a complete PSQ package for adverse information
(e.g. wage garnishments) which has already been reported and favorably
adjudicated within the past 12 to 18 months.
* Program access criteria should be standardized for SAP/SAR programs.
2.3 Information Systems Security
More attention must, by necessity, be focused on information systems
security.
* We are totally dependent upon computer systems to perform almost every
aspect of our complex classified contracts. Threats to national security
information disseminated across electronic information systems are very
real. The increased value of US technical information necessitates
balancing national policy objectives and the importance of sharing
information with the need to protect our leading edge technologies.
* The majority of incidents involving information systems are caused by
authorized individuals doing unauthorized activities. Strong technical
measures already exist to keep the outside out (encryption, firewalls,
passwords, etc.). It appears there is more benefit to information
systems security through an effective personnel security program than
arbitrary, costly physical restrictions on the computer systems.
* There is no doubt that increased connectivity creates greater
vulnerabilities. However, the advent of the NISPOM has not really
addressed implementing security requirements based on risk management
factors, but, instead, appears to be aimed at risk avoidance.
* The NISPOM, Chapter 8, "Automated Information Systems Security," above
all other chapters in the manual, requires extensive changes in our
automated information systems security program that are more restrictive
and that have significant cost impact to industry. For example:
* All procedures for our classified computer systems must be totally
rewritten to accommodate new NISPOM requirements. This is an extensive
investment of manpower for this contractor as we currently have over 150
Standard Practice Procedures for 1200 classified systems. There is a
further concern with the implementation of the NISPOM Supplement used by
our special access program customers, i.e. can the contractor come up
with a single set of procedures that can be adapted to special programs
and "white world" programs without each special access program
retreating to its own format as they have done in the past.
* A Certification Test Plan, which outlines the inspection and test
procedures to demonstrate compliance with the security requirement
associated with the mode of operation must be developed for each
classified system. As a minimum for dedicated systems, the test plan
must verify that system access controls and/or procedures are functional
and provide test results that verify the need to know controls are
implemented. This is a costly requirement. By definition, these tests
mandate highly technical personnel perform these tests. We rely on our
Information Services personnel to assist with security tests and
evaluations, but their services are charged back to programs incurred
with each test. Additionally, each contractor is conducting its own
tests on similar equipment, meaning each contractor is "reinventing the
wheel" rather than sharing test results for specific configurations.
* Storage media used for Top Secret processing may not be used for Secret
processing. It may not be declassified; destruction of the storage media
is the only acceptable method. Up until a year ago, almost without
exception, storage devices used for classified special access program
processing (regardless of classification level) were required to be
destroyed. In one instance the Skunk Work was required to destroy over
$300,000 worth of storage devices used on one of its classified
mainframe processors (we had upgraded from double- density storage
devices to triple-density storage devices). Recently, we have been
allowed to degauss or overwrite Confidential and Secret special access
program storage devices for reallocation on other special access
programs. However, Top Secret storage devices must still be destroyed.
* A bigger issue with storage devices is with the prohibition against
using Top Secret storage devices for multiple special access programs
from different User Agencies (e.g., Air Force special access programs
will not allow their devices to be used by Navy or Army special access
programs). The main impact here is with our supercomputing efforts.
Supercomputers and their storage devices are expensive; contractors
cannot afford to purchase separate storage devices for each
classification level, each program, and each agency. We appear to be
spending more dollars "protecting us from us." Economies of scale demand
that once a system is approved at the Top Secret level, it should be
available to multiple programs and agencies (with "clearing" between
processing sessions).
* The contractor must validate the functionality of security-related
software, requiring the similar technical expertise as that required for
Certification Tests. In addition, and much more costly, is the
requirement to verify all software is free of malicious code prior to
installation. This is a prime example of implementing "risk avoidance"
rather than "risk management." The expense of line code and virus checks
of every standard off-the-shelf software package used on a classified
system is not warranted. With over 1,200 classified systems in use by
the Skunk Works, the manpower required to virus check each software
revision on each system prior to installation would be untenable.
More and more, special access program customers are becoming involved in
how the Skunk Works protects its unclassified systems as well as its
classified systems.
* The Joint Security Commission report, "Redefining Security," and the
Information Infrastructure Task Force's report, "NII Security: The
Federal Role," clearly shows this interest is warranted, not only by our
customers, but by the Corporation itself. But as both of these reports
point out, there is a need to better understand what will be needed to
make our information secure enough to ensure information security and
network reliability. Until we have a better understanding of the "what,"
the government should not implement arbitrary and costly security
measures. Government contractors and computer vendors should expand the
time sharing of information system vulnerabilities and countermeasures.
3. SUMMARY
The past few years have seen great changes in the security programs in
the United States. Foremost among these changes have been the approval
of the National Industrial Security Program (NISP) and Executive Order
12958. These are significant improvements in standardizing requirements
for the contractor community. As we have pointed out, they can still be
improved upon. The work of the Joint Security Commission and now the
forming of your Commission are another positive step forward. Even with
the current strides, we are still spending too much protecting us from
ourselves. We need to be more conscious of utilizing risk management
instead of risk avoidance methods in determining security requirements
in this era of diminishing assets.
I do believe we need to concentrate a large part of our efforts on
Information and Personnel Security programs. This is money well spent.
In all other areas the risk management versus risk avoidance approach
must be stringently and intelligently applied. Only continuous
meaningful Government/ Industry participation in defining the rules,
combined with the appropriate oversight will allow us to drive down the
exorbitant costs of security. We look forward to providing you with any
additional information that can be of assistance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 03:45:16 PST
Subject: MODERATION PLEASE
To Mary, et al.
What was once a great discussion group for Lockheed and associated concepts
has devolved to UFO`s, plastic handguns, and the ever-popular ludicrous
propulsion theories of dazed liberal arts students waving their copy
of POPULAR MECHANICS and AVIATION WEEK. (Note the proliferation
of .edu`s)
I propose we either ask people to stay on topic or moderate the discussions.
The signal to noise ratio here is way off. 31 messages this morning and
nothing the least bit skunky.
Chuck
------------------------------
From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 07:41:27 EST
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns (was: RE: Titanium, reprise)
In every x-ray that I have seen of the Glock (even with junk on top)
the glock has shown up like a sore thumb. I would go one step more
and say it has shown up as well as or better than a conventional gun.
BUT, isn't this really off topic?
Paul
mangan@kodak.com
> Done properly these guns are "undetectable"
>
> *****************************************************************************
> David "Scre^2ch" Prieto 14/3 dpriet01@barney.poly.edu
>
> screech@cnct.com
>
> TIP#814
> *****************************************************************************
>
> On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Philip R. Moyer wrote:
>
> >
> > Wei-Jen Su wrote:
> >
> > Uhhhh... they even have plastic thermoresistente pistol.
> > Therefore, it is not metal detectable. I don't know about the bullets...
> >
> >
> > *Sigh* The myth of the undetectable gun again. :-) If you are talking about the Glock series
> > of semi-auto pistols, you're mistaken. The frame is plastic, but the barrel and slide are still
> > the same old metal. You can't carry one through a metal detector. Of course, you could remove
> > the slide and the barrel, but then, what's the point? :-)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> >
> >
>
------------------------------
From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 07:50:50 EST
Subject: U2 on a Carrier
A little while back there was a discussion about whether the U2
could land or take off from a carrier. Last night on Wings they
did a history of the U2. They showed the U2 landing on a carrier
and snagging the wire. What I found interesting was when it took
off it didn't appear to use the catapult. I reran the tape of it
several times and I could not see any catapult action or steam or
backplate. They also showed one take off from a short runway with
a very high rate of climb....more what I would have expected from
an F-16.
Paul
mangan@kodak.com
------------------------------
From: John Burtenshaw
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:11:09 -0100
Subject: Re: U2 on a Carrier
At 07:50 05/12/95 EST, you wrote:
>
>A little while back there was a discussion about whether the U2
>could land or take off from a carrier. Last night on Wings they
>did a history of the U2. They showed the U2 landing on a carrier
>and snagging the wire. What I found interesting was when it took
>off it didn't appear to use the catapult. I reran the tape of it
>several times and I could not see any catapult action or steam or
>backplate. They also showed one take off from a short runway with
>a very high rate of climb....more what I would have expected from
>an F-16.
>
>Paul
>mangan@kodak.com
Thats interesting.
I read sometime ago (and I cannot remember the name of publication) that a
U2 was flown from a carrier to overfly a country in part of the world were
there were no friendly bases. It apparently continued its flight after its
mission to land at a friendly base (something tells me it was RAF Akrotiri
in Cyprus).
Also there was a great documentary on British TV during the 1980's in which
a USAF officer based at a British base was denying that the TR-1 was being
operated out of the UK at that time - only to have one taxi in to shot
outside his office window. :->
Regards
John
===========================================================================
John Burtenshaw
Systems Administrator, The Computer Centre, Bournemouth University
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB U.K.
Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk
Phone: 01202 595089
Fax: 01202 513293
AX.25: g1hok@gb7bnm.#45.gbr.eu.
AMPRnet: g1hok.ampr.org. (44.131.17.82)
CompuServe: 100336.3113@compuserve.com
===========================================================================
------------------------------
From: dosgood@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dean Osgood)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:40:58 +0027
Subject: Re: Titanium
I wear glass's with titainium frames these days. When combined with
"fetherweight" polycarbonate "glass" they are half the weight. A LOT more
comfortable, and the frames show no corosion after 4 years of everyday
contact with skin oils, where as the old gold plated/etc. frames would be
getting pitted and ready to turn green about now. Also I have a pair of
flexable frames for sunglasses (I am not sure of the exact alloy, but it
has a lot of titainium in it) that are very abuse proof(I have sat on
them).
All in all a very good material for a specific useage
------------------------------
From: "JOHN F. REGUS"
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:07:04 -0600
Subject: NORAD and Christmas
Maybe 20 years ago, NORAD used to post "SANTA ALERTS" on TV
from Colorado...all very official looking and serious, on Christmas Eve.
The kids loved it. They haven't done it in a long time and I wish they would
start over.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ John F. Regus
+ SYS/370/390 SYSTEMS SOFTWARE, DATA AND
+ TELECOMMUNICATIONS ENGINEERING
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ internet: wizard@sccsi.com
+ internet: jregus@aol.com
+ voice : (713) 960 0045
+ data : (713) 960 0015 (SECURED)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------
From: tcrobi@most.magec.com (Tom Robison)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:11:39 +0500
Subject: Wings CD's
This may be a little off topic...
If there are those of you considering the purchase of the *Wings* series of
CD-Roms being promoted by the Discovery channel, I advise you to think
twice.
I have the *Modern Warplanes* and *Korea to Vietnam*. While they are mildly
entertaining, be aware that the CD's are replete with errors of omission
and comission. Purchase them, if you must, for their entertainment value,
not as serious research tools. These CD's are not produced by the Discovery
channel, but by a company called Maris. It is obvious to me that Maris did
not consult any of Discovery's *Wings* episodes in compiling their data.
For what it's worth...
Tom Robison
"...think carefully about what this country is going to do AGAIN. The words
sound exactly the same as those LBJ put on us way back when".
Ex- F105 Wild Weasel driver.
------------------------------
From: Greg Fieser
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:39:46 -0600
Subject: Re: U2 on a Carrier
>
> A little while back there was a discussion about whether the U2
> could land or take off from a carrier. Last night on Wings they
> did a history of the U2. They showed the U2 landing on a carrier
> and snagging the wire. What I found interesting was when it took
> off it didn't appear to use the catapult. I reran the tape of it
> several times and I could not see any catapult action or steam or
> backplate.
I have seen this video (and other still photos) and the takeoffs were indeed
accomplished without catapult assist. This was (a) possible because of the
excellent lift characteristics of the U-2, and (2) necessary because of the
lack of structural modifications required to accomodate a cat shot. Item (a)
also explains the excellent climbout rate observed.
On a related note, the Lockheed C-130 has accomplished the same feat (carrier
ops). The takeoffs were accomplished using the full length of the deck (i.e.
no RATO bottles). I remember reading that the pilot on these (C-130) tests
accomplished a sink rate on the order of 2 fps on landing, and earned a DFC
(I believe) for his efforts. I don't, however, believe this explains the
static display of an A-12 (60-6925) on a carrier deck (Intrepid)...
Greg Fieser
(since I am self-employed, the above views DO represent those of my employer!)
------------------------------
End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #556
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