From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #602 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Monday, 22 January 1996 Volume 05 : Number 602 In this issue: "Rolls-Royce Craft" Dec. issue of Lockheed Martin Skunk Works Star Mig pics Mig pics NASA SR's fly with ANS's? Re: The Hist. Chan Re- Hovering things-re- Hov Re: NASA SR's fly with ANS's? Saturday WINGS Position Opening Re: Spy Satellites F-117 crashes Re: Spy Satellites Fun HABU stuff! WeekDay WINGS - Monday... Jay Miller book Re: F-117 crashes Re: Spy Satellites Mail failure Air Canada 767 out of fuel See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BROWN A <92913938@mmu.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:38:30 GMT Subject: "Rolls-Royce Craft" The "Rolls-Royce Craft" mentioned by J. Pharabod in the VTOL list was the "Flying Bedstead", used to develop the gas-jet stabilisation system finally used on the P1127/Kestral/Harrier series. Most of the test flights took place at R-Rs private airfield at Hucknall in Nottinghamshire, about 20 miles from where I live. I'm not sure, but I think they might have built two of them, But I do know that the programme was marred by a fatal "roll-over" accident at some point. Another British programme which contributed to the P1127 was the Shorts SC-1, which again suffered at least one fatal accident. BTW, many people often make the common mistake of calling the P1127 the Kestral, but they were in fact two slightly different designs. The P1127 was the original prototype, while the Kestral was the pre- production version evaluated by a multi-national squadron in the mid- 60s. One that I think also got missed was the "German Harrier" the VFW 191 (I think thats its designation) which combined vectored thrust and lift engines, as did the Dornier Do-31 transport. Also don't forget the Yak "Freehand", which was an overgrown X-14 with teeth! It's a real shame they cancelled the P1154, just think, supersonic V/STOL (and it looked GREAT!) Adrian Brown (92913938@mmu.ac.uk) ------------------------------ From: jstone@iglou.com (John Stone) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 07:31 EST Subject: Dec. issue of Lockheed Martin Skunk Works Star Hi Skunkers, Andreas does his synopsis of the Av Week and since I have a subscription to the Lockheed Martin Skunk Works Star, and because Andreas thought that I should post synopsis of tech issue. Well also thought that alot of you might be interested. So here goes: Photo of Tier III Minus which has a crewmember standing in front of it, as the Darkstar undergoes preliminary tests at NASA's Edwards AFB facility, with preliminary taxi tests to start in late December. OAKS LEADS U-2 ASTOR PROPOSAL Mike Oaks, has been named program manager for the British U-2 Airborne Standoff Radar (ASTOR) modification proposal. "The proposal, involving new U-2s for a British reconnaissance mission, is a major Skunk Works activity. Delivery of the proposal is expected in March 1996." ODC ELIMINATION EARNS EPA KUDOS The Skunk Works received recognition from the EPA for the company wide elimination of ozone depleting chemicals (ODC). The Ozone Elimination Process Action Team, led by Gary Wendt, for successfully eliminating all 266 ODC-containing products used in 662 locations in the Skunk Works. BONG HERITAGE CENTER There is also a rather large article about the Richard Bong Museum in Poplar, Wisc.. It talks about The MINN. Air Guard restoring the P-38 standing out in front of the museum, which will be housed inside the new histoical center. The mesuem has been around for 40 years, and is trying to build a new Histoical Center which will honor Bong and all those that served in WWII. If you'd like to make a donation (tax deductible), send it to: Joyce Bong Erickson, Chair, Bong P-38 Fund, Inc., Box 326, Poplar, Wisc. 54864 Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@iglou.com U-2 and SR-71 Web Page http://wl.iglou.com/blackbird/ ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:10:53 PST Subject: Mig pics Did everyone get their pictures? I sent them last night. Chuck ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:08:34 PST Subject: Mig pics Did everyone get their pictures? I sent them last night. Chuck ------------------------------ From: Brian R Hutchison Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:51:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA SR's fly with ANS's? While reading the _Untouchables_, I started wondering if the ANS's are installed in the NASA SR-71's. Would they need the navigational accuracy of these systems to carry out their missions? Are the reactivated USAF SR-71's still using the same system? I was wondering about the accuracy of this book since it starts out with the old cover story that the Blackbird was developed for the USAF as an interceptor. Also is the new edition of Jay's book out yet? I've seen it in Zenith's catalog which doesn't mean much but it doesn't show up on Barnes & Noble Books in Print computer yet. I'm anxiously awaiting it. Hopefully someone on the list is familiar with the NASA SR-71 program 8^) Thanks, ooOOOO (SKUNK TRAIN?) ___ Brian Hutchison oo _____ ______|O|_____ _I__n_n__||_|| ________ | O O O | Microwave Technology Division >(_________|_7_|-|______|-_|__________|_- Hewlett Packard Company /o ()() ()() o oo oo oo oo INTERNET : brianrh@sr.hp.COM ------------------------------ From: mangan@Kodak.COM (Paul Mangan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 13:16:18 EST Subject: Re: The Hist. Chan I'll look through my Dad's negatives and see if there is any. A date would help. I have a lot of his negs from 1952 to 1961. Does this fall into the time frame? Paul mangan@kodak.com > > I`m going to see if Bell will give me some pics and data on the > Schweizer 1-26 based VTOL jet they built. Now THATS what I call > a modification! > > Chuck > ------------------------------ From: "Alun Whittaker" Date: 19 Jan 1996 09:40:05 -0800 Subject: Re- Hovering things-re- Hov Subject: Time:09:33 OFFICE MEMO Re: Hovering things... Date:1/19/96 "J. Pharabod" wrote: > I found back a few hovering and/or VTOL crafts in the French review > "Science et Vie Junior", January 1993 (with a photograph of each): > (rest of list deleted) > Rolls Royce craft, name unspecified (1954) UK jet mode I don't know the official designation but in the popular press of the time it was universally titled ``the flying bedstead'' since it greatly resembled an old-fashioned brass bedstead (although, of course much larger). Despite fanciful ``artist's impressions'' of horizontal flight modes, I only ever saw the real thing use its non-vectored vertical engine to lift it a few feet off the ground while tethered at all four corners. ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:10:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: NASA SR's fly with ANS's? On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Brian R Hutchison wrote: > Also is the new edition of Jay's book out yet? I've seen it in Zenith's > catalog which doesn't mean much but it doesn't show up on Barnes & Noble > Books in Print computer yet. I'm anxiously awaiting it. > I have the new edition of Jay Miller book. I bought in Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio when I was up there during the F-117 lecture. I couldn't find it in Barnes & Noble either. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:12:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Saturday WINGS Here's the Saturday WINGS listing. All 'copter issue... ============ Wings [DISC 9-10pm EST ] "Night Stalker". The Desert Storm missions of the Apache AH-64 and the UH-60 Blackhawk are examined. ============ [...also, I believe they have an early play time of around Noon EST during Weekday Wings, just discovered on my day off.] regards, ________ BaDge ------------------------------ From: Michael Karpuk Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:24:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: Position Opening TDA Research has an opening for an aero engineer to work on fuel technology for hypersonic aircraft. The position requires knowledge of fluids, heat transfer, chemical kinetics and materials and will work to develop catalytic and non-catalytic techniques to absorb heat from ramjet and scramjet combustors. Send resume to: Michael Karpuk TDA Research 12345 W. 52nd Ave. Wheat Ridge CO 80033 ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 20:59:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Spy Satellites On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com wrote: > One of my pet techno peaves. > You can always determine the resolution of a > camera (or any optical device) by size of diameter of the objective and the > wavelength observed. To "read lisence plates" you need about a 300 ft diameter > objective even for a low orbit! > > When you go IR you loose reso. > Been there, done that. The formula is from the resolution of the Fraunhofer diffraction pattern of a circular aperture: (1.21 * lambda) / (Diameter of lens) <= (resolution distance) / (distance from the lens to the target) Where: lambda = wavelenght of the light Therefore, a bigger lens diameter we can have greater resolution (they are inversely proportional, so a bigger lens the resolution distance can be smaller then better resolution). Or, a larger light wavelenght, the resolution will be better. A example of this is if we have a compact disk that use a blue laser light (about 750 nm) rather than a red laser light (about 400 nm), therefore, we can make a smaller compact disk with the same information. Because the resolution will be better in the blue laser. The problem is that we still looking for the technology for a blue laser. This is only to proof that I got something from a $16,000 per year of tutuition... :) May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 03:09:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: F-117 crashes I was in the lecture from Mr. D. M. Giangreco, author of "Stealth Fighter Pilot" in the Air Force Museum (Wright-Patterson AFB). He conclude that the crashes from the F-117 are due to fatigue of pilots because of their schedules during the "dark times". It come in my mind that the accident came be due to stress in the airplane. If you see the corner of the windows of the F-117 you will know that is a sharpe corner (designer choose this for stealth characteristics), rather than round corner for any pressurase cabin (like in the commercial aircraft). Therefore, the pressure will concentrate in the sharp corner, therefore, the window will blow away in time...like it happened with the British aircraft Comet. Maybe my conclusion is wrong, maybe the F-117 pressurase cabin is not that strong, or the area inside doen't affect it, or the window is very strong... May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 02:54:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Spy Satellites On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Wei-Jen Su wrote: > > > On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com wrote: > > > One of my pet techno peaves. > > You can always determine the resolution of a > > camera (or any optical device) by size of diameter of the objective and the > > wavelength observed. To "read lisence plates" you need about a 300 ft diameter > > objective even for a low orbit! > > > > When you go IR you loose reso. > > Been there, done that. > > The formula is from the resolution of the Fraunhofer diffraction > pattern of a circular aperture: > > (1.21 * lambda) / (Diameter of lens) <= (resolution distance) / (distance > from the lens to the target) > > Where: > lambda = wavelenght of the light > > Therefore, a bigger lens diameter we can have greater resolution > (they are inversely proportional, so a bigger lens the resolution > distance can be smaller then better resolution). Or, a larger light > wavelenght, the resolution will be better. A example of this is if we > have a compact disk that use a blue laser light (about 750 nm) rather > than a red laser light (about 400 nm), therefore, we can make a smaller > compact disk with the same information. Because the resolution will be > better in the blue laser. The problem is that we still looking for the > technology for a blue laser. > This is only to proof that I got something from a $16,000 per > year of tutuition... :) > > May the Force be with you > > Su Wei-Jen > E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu > > Sorry guys (and girls), I made a mistake. A blue light is 400 nm and a red light is about 750 nm. Therefore, a shorter wavelenght can be used for a higher resolution. I was half sleeping doing this stuff. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu ------------------------------ From: jstone@iglou.com (John Stone) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 15:22 EST Subject: Fun HABU stuff! Hi All, Just sent out checks to two guys with some (at least I think) kinda neat products. First from Jack Madison at: 76140.3502@compuserve.com a Mach 3+ patch mouse pad. The pad (10.75" by 8.5") has a blue background with a 5" tall Mach 3+ patch (just like all the SR pilots wear). It's $13.00 and E.D. McKim at 73477.1654@compuserve.com has come up with a screensaver with (30) SR and U-2 and F-117 pics. You do have to have at least Windows 3.1, but (like me) if you don't you can get the photos and use them as wallpaper or just gaze at them lustfully. The screensaver is $35.00 or the pictures are $25.00. Like I said hopefully mine are on the way.. Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@iglou.com U-2 and SR-71 Web Page http://wl.iglou.com/blackbird/ ------------------------------ From: BaDge Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 20:46:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: WeekDay WINGS - Monday... Mon Jan-22 EST Wings [DISC 6-7pm ] [Document] "Strange Shapes". Aerodynamics enables huge planes to fly. -also- 21st Century Jet: The Building of the 777 [PBS 8-9pm ] [Documentary] Manufacturing company race to meet deadlines. CC, Stereo, Rerun. regards, ________ BaDge ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:38:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Jay Miller book For peoples interesting in the Lockheed's Skunk Works - The Official History... by Jay Miller (Updated Edition), here is the information that showed in my book: "This revised edition published 1995 by: Midland Publishing Ltd. 24 The Hollow, Earl Shilton Leicester, LE9 7NA, England ph: (01455) 847815 fax:(01455) 841805 First published in 1993 by: Aerofax, Inc. 708 Viewside Circle Arlington, TX 76011 United State trade distribution by: Specialty Press Publishers & Wholesalers Inc. 11481 Kost Dam Road North Branch, MN 55056 USA ph: (612) 583-3239; toll free ph: (800) 895-4585 fax: (612) 583-2023 ISBN: 1-85780-037-0 Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 93-90693" ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 03:38:42 PST Subject: Re: F-117 crashes Nope, pressure doesn`t concentrate. Thats why its called "pressure" (Force/Area) instead of an "applied force", ie. pressure is a loading. Usually, the rounded corners on a window are to avoid "stress concentrators" in the skin around the window. Since the 117 windows appear to be surrounded by structural members, this would not be a problem, Also, the dynamic pressure at this area of the aircraft is probably MUCH higher than the statc pressure in the cabin/cockpit, so the windows would tend to get pushed against the frames. - -or not. Chuck ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 03:43:06 PST Subject: Re: Spy Satellites PS, Blue LASERs are all the rage for LVDP and other flow visualization techniques. I have a picture of a test rig. We had the lights on so the blue laser is barely vivsible. I`ll see if it will scan and send you a copy if it does. Chuck ------------------------------ From: POSTMASTER@RPSPO2.AtlantaGA.ATTGIS.COM Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 06:20:00 PST Subject: Mail failure [002] Mail was received that was addressed to unknown addresses. Mail item was not delivered to: ATTATLMFG/RPSPO2/cfoster - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Return-Path: <@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM:skunk-works@mail.orst.edu> Received: from attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM by attatl.AtlantaGA.ATTGIS.COM id <31039E20@attatl.AtlantaGA.ATTGIS.COM>; Mon, 22 Jan 96 06:24:32 PST From mail.orst.edu!skunk-works Mon Jan 22 04:59 EST 1996 remote from attatl Received: by attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM; 22 Jan 96 04:59:54 EST Received: from ncrgw1.UUCP (ncrgw1@localhost) by ncrhub5.attgis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with UUCP id FAA14997 for rpspo2.atlantaga.attgis.com!cfoster; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 05:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by ncrgw1.ATTGIS.COM; 22 Jan 96 04:58:41 EST Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.orst.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA24901 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gaia.ucs.orst.edu (majordom@gaia.UCS.ORST.EDU [128.193.4.2]) by mail.orst.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24896 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by gaia.ucs.orst.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA03472 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:06:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:06:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601220806.AAA03472@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #600 Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: skunk-works@mail.orst.edu Skunk Works Digest Monday, 22 January 1996 Volume 05 : Number 600 In this issue: Area 51 revisited -- in firmware See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: russellk@BIX.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:49:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Area 51 revisited -- in firmware I came across this on our company's discussion forum. I don't know whether it's true or not (though I'd bet it is), but if it isn't it certainly ought to be. This is just barely on-topic, but I couldn't resist posting it here. ____________________________________________________________ There's an easter egg in the 2.0 Newton (MessagePad 120) which was "censored" by, yes, the CIA. Back in '94, one of the Newton software types make a trek to the (very) small town of Rachel, Nevada, which is located at the edge of a secret government airbase. The base, called "Area 51," is thought by UFO-enthusiasts to be filled with alien technology which the government is in the process of reverse engineering. Meanwhile, the government denies the very existence of the base, in spite of widespread media coverage ("Larry King Live from Area 51", etc.). We figured it'd be funny to put a reference to Area 51 in the Newton -- especially given the substantial overlap between conspiracy buffs and computer nerds. So, in the "Time Zones" application, contains a world map, we put an entry for Area 51 in its correct location. Later, we added a twist -- if the user picks Area 51 from the map, the icons in the datebook application take on an alien theme. Normally, meetings are represented by an icon of two people face-to-face, events are represented by a flag, etc., etc. But when Area 51 has been chosen, the icon for a meeting is a person facing an alien, the icon for an event is a flying saucer, a to-do task is represented by a robot, an so on. Okay, cute enough. Now cut to August 1995, when the 2.0 ROM has been declared final, seed units have been in customers' hands for a little while, and the release is just about ready to go. One of the seed units, it turns out, was sent to a cryptographer working for the CIA. When he found that Area 51 was listed at the correct latitude/longitude, he complained to Apple, demanding the removal of the easter egg and threatening to have his superiors take the issue to Spindler if necessary. In the end, Newton management caved in to the demand, and decided to pull the joke out of the system. But the ROM was already done -- so the feature was hidden by a software patch ("System Update") -- but this part of the patch can itself be removed, and "Area 51" returned to its rightful glory. Here's how to get the easter egg back: 1) Open the Extras drawer. 2) Switch the folder of the Extras drawer to "Storage". 3) Tap on the icon "Time Zones" and press the "Delete" button. Warning - - -- any cities you've added to your Newton will be lost. 4) Switch the folder of the extras drawer back to "Unfiled icons." 5) Tap on "Time Zones." You'll find that Area 51 is on the map -- just tap near Las Vegas and choose Area 51 from the popup. Now look at the icons in Dates. (To purge the aliens from your PDA, open the back and press reset). ============================================ Russell Kay, Technical Editor, BYTE Magazine 1 Phoenix Mill Lane, Peterborough, NH 03458 603-924-2591; fax 603-924-2550 russellk@bix.com ============================================ - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #600 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 15:23:56 +0100 Subject: Air Canada 767 out of fuel In 1983 an Air Canada Boeing 767 encountered an loss of both engines due to fuel-shortage. The reason for the mishap was a number of unfortunate cirscumstances and some not that unfortunate. An investigation report (not the early official one) faulted the crash on : 1 The governement imposed decision to specify the a/c in SI units (grams, meter , Newton and watt). 2 Two man crew where nobody didn't relly understood how to calculate the onboard a/c fuel reserves (flight engineers was previously expected to do this.) 3 Due to this problem the company told the maintenance personnel to do the field engineers job but nobody never spelled out clearly that the field personnel was responsible. 4 Everyone was unable to do an accurate estimate because they didn't really understand the difference between one pound and one kilogram for example. All this was ok because normally when the fuel-reserves computer onboard was fully functional the a/c was self-refueling ie you told the a/c how much fuel in kilograms you needed and the computer would shut the pumps down when the tanks were filled. 5 The fuel-reserve computer was faulty and unable to do its job. The company got criticism because they didn't have enough reserve parts. The crash happened because the crew and the field personnel wasn't proficient in calculating the weight of the fuel from it volume in litres. The truth is that the real reserves were about an half the calculated ones. For me as an swede it is pretty easy to know if an calculation such as this one is ok. Why ?? Because jet fuel has an density less than one (about 0.8 kg/litre) ie jet fuel has an lower density than pure water. In this case they had about 14000 litres of jp or 11 metric tonnes this was clearly insufficient for a flight between montreal and edmonton with short stop att Ottawa airport. They calculated that they had 22 tonnes !!! Now I wonder : what happened with standardization in Air Canada and the North-American air industry after this ?? ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #602 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).